Swagic
Smash Journeyman
But, then again, when you play Ganon, you're at least playing a little bit for style points. And nothing says style like a giant Ganon hug.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Diosama
Stand User
Styling is something I rarely indulge in (don't wanna come off as a bizz kid), but it feelsgoodman.jpg when I do
Damn, son.
Diosama
Stand User
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Swagic
A useful thing to know is that any time Marth forward smashes your shield--even if it's sweetspotted--you have a guaranteed followup! Most mains know about the followup when it isn't. When it isn't sweetspotted, WD OOS grab always works. I don't know how well-known the followup for sweetspotted fsmash is. When it is sweetspotted and you're knocked backward in shield, WD OOS ftilt always works! Tested it a few days ago at the max possible spacing. The caveat to all this is that your wavedash needs to be full length, something that comes with practice. But anyway, the takeaway is: any time you and Marth are on the same height and he fsmashes your shield, you get guaranteed free damage!With regard to Ganon's upB: It actually comes out on frame 13, not frame 14. The massive grabbox is only out on 13 before it shrinks to a much smaller one on 14. (See the frame data thread for a gif.) And yes, it is a true teleport. If you have 20XX, you can see the magic yourself by advancing frame by frame. Ganon will be crouched on the ground for 12 frames, then suddenly teleport forward and hug the opponent if they were in-range. If they were at max range, Ganon will appear quite a distance from where he was crouching just a frame before.
I'm not sure what you mean about upB as a counter to Peach's dsmash, though, since for the first 12 frames of startup you're completely vulnerable and therefore would get scooped up in the dsmash if you tried upB OOS.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Oh, that's true, I forgot about the startup lag. But could you do it if she wiffed the down smash? I guess I mean using it as a sort of punishment for a whiffed attack you can't really touch, like a missed Fox dair or Peach down smash. And is the range big enough that it could teleport you through a DK up b?
With regard to Ganon's upB: It actually comes out on frame 13, not frame 14. The massive grabbox is only out on 13 before it shrinks to a much smaller one on 14. (See the frame data thread for a gif.) And yes, it is a true teleport. If you have 20XX, you can see the magic yourself by advancing frame by frame. Ganon will be crouched on the ground for 12 frames, then suddenly teleport forward and hug the opponent if they were in-range. If they were at max range, Ganon will appear quite a distance from where he was crouching just a frame before.
I'm not sure what you mean about upB as a counter to Peach's dsmash, though, since for the first 12 frames of startup you're completely vulnerable and therefore would get scooped up in the dsmash if you tried upB OOS.
Also, sorry about the number, I guess I miscounted looking at the frames.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I can't tell you how much better my Ganon game has gotten just from reading the thread. I haven't even been practicing much tech. But just learning about spacing and matchups... Got my ass handed to me on a silver platter at my last tourney (also my first) and my old roommate could 4 stock me consistently (I counted a JV4 as a pretty good game). Read 30 pages, I played him yesterday for about an hour, never lost by more than 2 stocks, and I even started beating his Falco. The most advanced tech I have is 50-50 on the perfect wavelands.
I still need to learn the Tipman though.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Well there are lot of times you can get marth offstage before 80%. While it may be good to still get the percent from doing a marth killer an punishing on stage when marth is below 80, that's not as good as getting the kill right then and there. Ganon needs to decrease the amount of times he has to play neutral at all costs.
80+i it could be good depending on the stage and percent. It would be valuable to know what percents fair/bair kill at horizontally or what percents it gets to the point where they are far enough offstage for you to reset the edgeguard. Otherwise, it isn't worth it to fair/bair them and have them go maybe just a little bit offstage while you have to go all the way back to center and it's effectively neutral again.
I have a vague idea of the percent range, but I don't think that's good enough. Just another thing I'll have to test when I'm done with training my tech skill to where I want it to be at.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
There's always ways to kill him sooner, if you have the read, by all means, let the big dog eat.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
I'm a bit rusty at the Peach match-up but yeah I could stand to DI her throws a little bit better; we played a few sets before that one so I got somewhat accustomed to fighting Peach. I really need to have a serious session with Blea and Elliot again.spider_sense vs peach, try tournament winner to edge guard her. If she's floating at that height where you can't get her with a double jump, tournament winner is a great way to catch her off guard. Linguini said that one, I think.
Also, DI her dthrow behind her. Took me forever to figure that one out, but she won't be able to hit you with that dthrow --> nair combo. Now, he could've been just doing a DI mixup and you were DI'ing for the back throw and I'm misreading the situation lol. Either way, just thought I'd mention it.
Blea making that matchup look in Luigi's favor lololololol
-ACE-
I saw your match with Prof; holy crap you beasted his sheik. lmao show me your ways.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
It's actually very viable in both those matches; it's mostly used like a reversal to punish moves like Marth's (uptilt/f-smash and even dtilt/ftilt) and Peach's downsmash; the only tricky thing is you have to wait for the downsmash animation to be completely through before initiating (assuming you're trying to do an up-b oos). It's also surprisingly good for stock finishers and punishing people who idle with their shield's on top of platforms, so just experiment and learn the application for it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
spider_sense
the first match was good, second and third match, more than enough mistakes to lose. When we chillin?
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Maybe this Friday; we'll see how my funds look for this week.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Lol re-reading my young posts.. I had a lot of energy geez. Maybe I can bring that back. =)
Linguini
Smash Master
I wanna play friday jason/dayve!
lol swagic is a ****ing legend, glad this thread is still helping ganon peeps out 6 year later
lol swagic is a ****ing legend, glad this thread is still helping ganon peeps out 6 year later
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Pyrostormer
Smash Lord
Yo, has anybody explored that up-b thing where Ganon will slide off, almost like a ledge cancel? I know it happens to falcon sometimes too. Just wondering if anybody knows when its triggered?
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Jim come to Charlotte tournaments pls
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
JIM!!! Yo man hope you're doing well. I think it's spacing dependent, there's a certain spacing that will only edge cancel when you're holding forward the whole time, and it's a little slower although it does cancel.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Anybody got a list of characters that can crouch under Ganon's grab? I know Puff and Sheik can, and after watching Kage play aMSa (Apex exhibition 2014, great set, Kage), it looked like Yoshi could too, and I'm guessing Pichu probably can. Any others, does anyone know?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
spider_sense
by the way you got 20XX:TE now. We in there
Difference between Ganon kills and Fox kills: http://www.twitch.tv/pimp_squad/v/29041319
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Sweet! Now to really **** on sheiks.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Got u fam.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Got u fam.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lmao. Ganon is officially no longer "mid tier". People sleeping on the dark lord.
Duel
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 167
lets win some low tier tournies
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I swear I was thinking the same thing lol
spider_sense
Smash Champion
-sighs- Reading that actually pissed me off, we need real representation to actually show these guys that Ganon deserves to be higher; they can't even allocate the tiers correctly? Technically there's no SUCH thing as an SS tier; unless you're talking about me. The order has always been S, A, B, C, D.
@PaperstSoapCo L Linguini
-ACE-
Starting tomorrow; I'm going to comprise a Ganon book going over EVERY intrigue theory/application this character has to offer. #uncrowned kings of the south.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
It makes sense that Ganon is not longer considered viable on the official tier list because there hasn't really been enough done with him in the past two years. There haven't been any major investments in the character in order to really advance his meta and show what he has in order to actually be considered viable. I do believe with enough effort and good representation, Ganon can be considered viable. If Linguini, Kage, Bizzarro Flame, Spider Sense, and Eikelmann all went to big national tournaments regularly and fully optimized their gameplay, then it would certainly look like Ganon is better than people give him credit for. I just feel like Ganon has had such a falling off as of late because of just how poorly he is being represented at top level play. I still criticize Kage for not properly edgeguarding Marths and he's the most "active" and "best" of all the Ganondorfs around at this point in time.
I'm gonna take the time to list what each of the Top Ganon players can be doing in order for Ganon to be considered viable again:
Kage - You have really solid fundamentals and your neutral is nutty a lot of the time. Your confidence is often through the roof when you play and you almost never let nerves get to you. You have great game sense, but you are lacking in the technical ability of other Top Ganondorf players. If you were to work more on your technical ability within the game then I assure you, you can definitely rise up higher in tournaments. You just gotta have a better work ethic about it and not make excuses to why you can't do things.
Bizzarro Flame - Your tech skill is very solid and you can instill fear into opponents almost as well as Kage can, though your neutral sometimes lacks. There are sometimes where you do very well but there are also times where I watch you and I question some of your decision making. I know you haven't been going to too many tournaments recently because you're officially a lawyer now and the process to get there was taking a lot of your time, but hopefully you'll be going to bigger and better events in the future. I think the biggest thing you could work on is not doing useless movement and making safer decisions when you are cornered.
Linguini - Just come back dude, in some way hahaha. You already know so much about how to play Ganon right and I still believe your fundamentals and tech skill with Ganon were unlike any other. Your decisions making is still spot on and you make many other top players sweat when you play them. You got everything down pretty well and I'm sure you could get stronger if you actually went to bigger tournaments. I don't know when you'll be dedicated to Melee again, if ever, but you coming back in full force would definitely put a different impression of Ganon in people's minds.
Spider Sense - You're like a mini-Emilio in the sense that you tend to make a lot of good decisions and your tech skill is insane (better than Emilio at times too). I just want to see you go to more big tournaments, so hearing you couldn't come to BH5 made me rather upset. I also don't want SF guys to flake at big tournaments too, cause you guys have a bad habit of really not giving a **** when it matters.
Eikelmann - You have been getting a lot of the stuff right dude. You decisions are often really solid and your tech is definitely among the best. I think your biggest problem was your mentality, as you would often beat yourself up for not getting where you wanted to be. I felt like you had a lot of expectations a lot of the time and you would be too critical of yourself and it would ironically hold you back. Seeing you lose to DoH just barely at BH5 was pretty disturbing to me simply because of how you reacted to not making Top 64, and I could see even then you were having trouble with yourself. I hope during this long hiatus with your job in Denver that you can work more on your mentality and self-esteem so that when you come back in mid-2017 like you've said before, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. You and I have struggled with the same problem in the game in terms of mentality and I hope we can both overcome that for the sake of being good at the game and actually enjoying ourselves.
This is just a rough estimate of what I see as going on. Overall we're not going to enough tournaments and we're not pushing ourselves hard enough. This is truly why I think Ganon has fallen off the viability plane. We can get back there, it might just be a matter of time.
I'm gonna take the time to list what each of the Top Ganon players can be doing in order for Ganon to be considered viable again:
Kage - You have really solid fundamentals and your neutral is nutty a lot of the time. Your confidence is often through the roof when you play and you almost never let nerves get to you. You have great game sense, but you are lacking in the technical ability of other Top Ganondorf players. If you were to work more on your technical ability within the game then I assure you, you can definitely rise up higher in tournaments. You just gotta have a better work ethic about it and not make excuses to why you can't do things.
Bizzarro Flame - Your tech skill is very solid and you can instill fear into opponents almost as well as Kage can, though your neutral sometimes lacks. There are sometimes where you do very well but there are also times where I watch you and I question some of your decision making. I know you haven't been going to too many tournaments recently because you're officially a lawyer now and the process to get there was taking a lot of your time, but hopefully you'll be going to bigger and better events in the future. I think the biggest thing you could work on is not doing useless movement and making safer decisions when you are cornered.
Linguini - Just come back dude, in some way hahaha. You already know so much about how to play Ganon right and I still believe your fundamentals and tech skill with Ganon were unlike any other. Your decisions making is still spot on and you make many other top players sweat when you play them. You got everything down pretty well and I'm sure you could get stronger if you actually went to bigger tournaments. I don't know when you'll be dedicated to Melee again, if ever, but you coming back in full force would definitely put a different impression of Ganon in people's minds.
Spider Sense - You're like a mini-Emilio in the sense that you tend to make a lot of good decisions and your tech skill is insane (better than Emilio at times too). I just want to see you go to more big tournaments, so hearing you couldn't come to BH5 made me rather upset. I also don't want SF guys to flake at big tournaments too, cause you guys have a bad habit of really not giving a **** when it matters.
Eikelmann - You have been getting a lot of the stuff right dude. You decisions are often really solid and your tech is definitely among the best. I think your biggest problem was your mentality, as you would often beat yourself up for not getting where you wanted to be. I felt like you had a lot of expectations a lot of the time and you would be too critical of yourself and it would ironically hold you back. Seeing you lose to DoH just barely at BH5 was pretty disturbing to me simply because of how you reacted to not making Top 64, and I could see even then you were having trouble with yourself. I hope during this long hiatus with your job in Denver that you can work more on your mentality and self-esteem so that when you come back in mid-2017 like you've said before, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. You and I have struggled with the same problem in the game in terms of mentality and I hope we can both overcome that for the sake of being good at the game and actually enjoying ourselves.
This is just a rough estimate of what I see as going on. Overall we're not going to enough tournaments and we're not pushing ourselves hard enough. This is truly why I think Ganon has fallen off the viability plane. We can get back there, it might just be a matter of time.
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Double post.
RedmanSSBM
- Yeah; I'm trying to go out to nationals more; it's just having life priorities that just gets in the way. I have 3 Phenomenal Ganon mains living close to me; we got this and we will be in full force.
RedmanSSBM
- Yeah; I'm trying to go out to nationals more; it's just having life priorities that just gets in the way. I have 3 Phenomenal Ganon mains living close to me; we got this and we will be in full force.
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Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I'm in the mid-2010 part of the thread right now, and reading the conversations that were going on there vs watching Kage, Bizz, and Eikelmann recently... It almost looks like they're a little rusty. You guys have so much more potential.
Side note, I saw zero Ganon mains on the list of people they asked for tier info. I'm almost happy I'm coming onto the scene now. Maybe some new blood will help.
Side note, I saw zero Ganon mains on the list of people they asked for tier info. I'm almost happy I'm coming onto the scene now. Maybe some new blood will help.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Not only that but only a handful of the people have reasonable Ganon mu experience.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I could see that keeping Ganon in mid tier might be based on theory more than results, but fox never dropped from the #1 spot when Falco was winning literally everything like 4-5 years ago lol.
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Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I guess it's time to show them how wrong they all were.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I'm pretty sure Yoshi can't, actually. aMSa was more than likely parrying those grabs, which made it look like they whiffed. Marth can crouch under ganon's grab, too, but I think it's only for certain spacings because I can sometimes shield grab the dtilt. Idk, it's weird. I'd actually like some information on this as well if anyone has it.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Oh, that would make a LOT more sense. I forgot about the parry.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Restating ducking under grab question.
Also, anybody got an archive of good Ganon vids for a new guy? I know Ace had said something about it about 5 years ago, but I have no idea if that archive still exists, if it did in the first place. So... Anybody got one? I could put one together over Christmas if need be...
Also, anybody got an archive of good Ganon vids for a new guy? I know Ace had said something about it about 5 years ago, but I have no idea if that archive still exists, if it did in the first place. So... Anybody got one? I could put one together over Christmas if need be...