Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

Vs Mado(Falcon) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q2seNwkxzs&list=PL5WBVE0QXBPC51ar3Hlvd4PHnBzpNxvgP&index=11
Vs SSBMTL Kyle(Peach) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3gMT7wSRfo
Vs Vierance (Peach) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCo_URIDYtk
Vs Lacroix (Puff) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7JW7H_K5aI (I only went Ganon game 1)
If anyone of you could help me improve in these matchups or give me advice on my habits I would strongly appreciate it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Post-Shine thoughts:

1. I don't think the Marth matchup is doable anymore. Kage has convinced me how bad that matchup really is. It's kind of like Sheik-Marth, where Sheik does really well up until a certain level. But what it comes down to is Ganon loses to Marth at ... pretty much everything when you think about it.

2. My faith in the Falco matchup has been restored. I think this matchup could definitely be played at top level. The thing is, Ganon either needs to win in all his counterpicks, or have a secondary for FD and pokemon.

3. Still very unsure how I feel about puff. I think Ganon might have a shot, but he basically needs to play a very specific style in neutral and have a really optimized pseudo neutral. For example, I think if you're below puff after a hit, you need to be able to cover her movements coming down or force her to the ledge.

4. This was the first tournament I busted out lh uair regrab. I've been grinding it in friendlies, but never used it in sets up until now. If you can do it, you should, especially against Peach and Marth. The best part about it is how far out the uair hitbox reaches and the fact it stays out for its entire length. The regular lh uair is often harder to hit because it doesn't cover as large an area.

5. Subtle differences in timing attacks makes a huge difference. It's easy to get caught in a predictable rhythm that you form when you practice by yourself.

6. Kage is a great guy and has an affinity for rum :D

 

[tm]

I've been playing this game for years, learned all sorts of crazy, obscure, and useless ****, but not until TODAY did I learn that fair, bair, nair, and uair all have the same landing lag.

wtf.

I always just assumed that fair had more than uair/bair and less than dair... I can't believe I never knew this

 

[Bwmat]

I've been playing this game for years, learned all sorts of crazy, obscure, and useless ****, but not until TODAY did I learn that fair, bair, nair, and uair all have the same landing lag.

wtf.

I always just assumed that fair had more than uair/bair and less than dair... I can't believe I never knew this

What? Really?

I always assumed it was uair/Nair < Bair < fair < dair

But I never thought about it much.

Edit: reread it, and phew, you aren't saying dair is the same, I was certain it had more

 

[DCW]

4. This was the first tournament I busted out lh uair regrab. I've been grinding it in friendlies, but never used it in sets up until now. If you can do it, you should, especially against Peach and Marth. The best part about it is how far out the uair hitbox reaches and the fact it stays out for its entire length. The regular lh uair is often harder to hit because it doesn't cover as large an area.

Lh uair regrab is actually quite good against space animals in some scenarios, too. I'm specifically thinking of when they up-B at or somewhat below stage height, far from the stage (but not so far that a ledgehog would suffice for the edgeguard). In those scenarios, the lh uair will cover recoveries toward the edge or stage [the hitboxes are big enough to stop attempts to reach onstage], while the regrab will cover high recoveries made in an attempt to fall and grab ledge.

Of course other edgeguards are possible, but I like this one because it is guaranteed and requires no reactions, other than recognizing when to use the technique. Just time the upair to coincide with their up-B and all options are covered. In general, I think lh uair regrab is one of Ganon's best edgeguarding tools; hopefully this illustrates its application against the spacies.

 

[-ACE-]

LOL .....

 

[DCW]

In retrospect, I could have just summarized that post as "lh uair regrab is good to cover spacey up-Bs to ledge." The scenario I mentioned is just a special situation when it covers all options.

LOL .....

Not sure if this is directed at my post, but if so, do you disagree with something in it?

 

[Linguini]

Marth is def. doable; it's no worse than falcon...which is pretty bad also but we play ganon so all matchups are normally bad rofl. All my matches with moon were close when I was super rusty. I'd be confident against him in a runback. Kagesters you gotta wd oos more to punish marth and close his distance. See one of my matches vs barraca. Top level marths don't even play that campy which is what's most effective against ganon.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but look, Marth can literally adjust his timing to yours really easily then all your WD attempts are going to get stuffed. It's extremely hard, I had horrible experiences lately vs really good Marths. Duck's Marth beat my Ganon but I won a lot more with Falcon lol. I also went 50-50 with Lambchops the same day, I'd like to think I'm on the right track for matchups.

 

[Linguini]

Chops plays falco lol so that has nothing to do with marth. But yeh I disagree, you could improve a lot in the matchup imo. But falcon is obviously a better matchup with marth so that makes sense.

 

[Divinokage]

Chops plays falco lol so that has nothing to do with marth. But yeh I disagree, you could improve a lot in the matchup imo. But falcon is obviously a better matchup with marth so that makes sense.

I meant that I do study matchups all the time and took every trick possible in order to make a matchup the best it can be. I still cant execute everything perfectly but its not because of that I lose a matchup. I'm saying it's really easy to outplay a Ganon in general once you know what he can do in neutral. And of course everyone can improve more, this game is hard as ****.

 

[spider_sense]

Does anybody know if Ganon can up smash oos on Fox/Falco's firebird? This could be some controller throwing new age tech. lol You won't ever have to worry about the spacies charging you head on with up-b. It'd be a great mixup to force them to always go for the ledge or have to immediately side-b. (gimmielegde) Problem is; I've been having trouble getting the upsmash to come out because the shield stun duration is so long that it seems like there's a specific timing to it.

Edit post: Nevermind, I actually just found out that if you face Ganon in the opposite direction of the spacies firebird, then Ganon's upsmash should have enough time to catch them on their freefall. The reason why you have to face Ganon in the opposite direction is because Ganon's feet will hit past them because of the slow start up. <---(this part is speculation) It seems to work really well if they're coming from below the stage and they want to hit your shield while being able to recover. You just have to make sure your shield is full, because you don't want burnt toenails.

 

[Divinokage]

Does anybody know if Ganon can up smash oos on Fox/Falco's firebird? This could be some controller throwing new age tech. lol You won't ever have to worry about the spacies charging you head on with up-b. It'd be a great mixup to force them to always go for the ledge or have to immediately side-b. (gimmielegde) Problem is; I've been having trouble getting the upsmash to come out because the shield stun duration is so long that it seems like there's a specific timing to it.

Edit post: Nevermind, I actually just found out that if you face Ganon in the opposite direction of the spacies firebird, then Ganon's upsmash should have enough time to catch them on their freefall. The reason why you have to face Ganon in the opposite direction is because Ganon's feet will hit past them because of the slow start up. <---(this part is speculation) It seems to work really well if they're coming from below the stage and they want to hit your shield while being able to recover. You just have to make sure your shield is full, because you don't want burnt toenails.

You can powershield the Up-B into Fsmash if they have enough % or backair actually if you are facing forward. It's a really good tech with any character actually. With Fox that tech is broken lol, PS to shine RIP. Though I'm pretty sure as Ganon the Up-B needs to be PSed somewhat early to land a reversal but not early enough where they are too far.

 

[-ACE-]

D DCW lmao No, I didn't read your post

Ok now I did. LH uair regrab is completely situational but useful in a considerable amount of situations (lol). Definitely good vs a floating peach, but I wouldn't say it's particularly good for many matchups... Mostly just certain situations. I pretty much agree with everyone that's just my $0.02

Marth isn't that bad. I feel like some people are just now finding out what I found out from getting wrecked by PP right before he destroyed m2k in dittos and got crazy good. He was WAY ahead of his time for a while, and very good vs Ganon. Marth can make your life Hell, but you can almost kill him off one mistake. As marths get better, just adjust how you play the matchup. Respect him more, play safer and punish harder, don't drop edgeguards, etc.

Puff is bull**** **** that matchup LOL

 

[Divinokage]

D DCW lmao No, I didn't read your post

Ok now I did. LH uair regrab is completely situational but useful in a considerable amount of situations (lol). Definitely good vs a floating peach, but I wouldn't say it's particularly good for many matchups... Mostly just certain situations. I pretty much agree with everyone that's just my $0.02

Marth isn't that bad. I feel like some people are just now finding out what I found out from getting wrecked by PP right before he destroyed m2k in dittos and got crazy good. He was WAY ahead of his time for a while, and very good vs Ganon. Marth can make your life Hell, but you can almost kill him off one mistake. As marths get better, just adjust how you play the matchup. Respect him more, play safer and punish harder, don't drop edgeguards, etc.

Puff is bull**** **** that matchup LOL

Also to confirm more about Duck's Marth, he kinda plays like Vwins where he'll kill you if you get grabbed as Ganon. He's exploring the options on a knockdown as he doesn't have that option with Samus lol. He was having fun doing reactionary techchases + he beat S2j's Falcon 2-3 times in a row but i beat his Marth 5 times out of 6 with Falcon I think yet I couldn't do it as Ganon. Not sure how I can play where I can avoid Marth's range, he can literally react to any button pressed.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon's DD is nothing like marth's, but you can DD against all of his approaches in order to bait them, except for dtilt and him just running up and grabbing. Even then, if you react from DD with a...

-AC bair into dash away and immediately dd again
-WD away into another DD
-dashjump away into bair or waveland where practical

...You can download some habits for free.

The bair obviously kills approaches and is safe when spaced/AC'd into dash away

The wd away into DD escapes lots of stuff and you can grab an approaching nair/react with anything

The dashjump away is a bait, if he follows you can ff and bair or waveland approach if he's not ready

The key is reacting in time so you can remain safe. If you let him get too close, you have to go for a desperation read. You can can still often bair his approach, but you can also DD into shield while facing him. As soon as you shieldstop keep holding forward or forward and down, which will make your uair oos more applicable and get you more shieldgrabs. You can also DD into crouch when he's gotten too close and CC his ass, but when he starts grabbing these won't work.

And at any point he sh rising fairs, you can side-b him from your DD. I know tm can react quick enough lol. The DD occasionally baits sh rising fair from good marths. You can throw in a side-b to punish nair landing lag too, the reward is high and they're not always ready.

Then you always have your standard aerial baits, retreating fair for confident reads, and empty sh waveland. If you're using all your tools and downloading his habits, you'll almost always find the openings you need to put him away. There's just little room for error. Play neutral smart enough to frustrate him. You CAN take away a good bit of the effectiveness of his range with smart play and quick reactions.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Top level marths don't even play that campy

...yet. Imagine a Marth that played Ganon like 20GX does. I would not consider that doable.

I think that where the meta is now, Marth doable. Obviously there are improvements everyone can make, even if you study the matchup. But I think that's going to change, the way it has with the falcon matchup and the way it did with Marth-Sheik.

If people want to push that matchup as far as they can, that's cool. But I just don't think it's going to last once Marth starts playing it correctly.

 

[-ACE-]

There has never been any group of individuals that tried to push a particular character's anti-Ganon meta, and I don't see it happening any time soon unless all of us surpass the top Ganons and show everyone he is a threat. There are only select individuals that are really good at the matchup. We're safe for a while.

 

[Divinokage]

There has never been any group of individuals that tried to push a particular character's anti-Ganon meta, and I don't see it happening any time soon unless all of us surpass the top Ganons and show everyone he is a threat. There are only select individuals that are really good at the matchup. We're safe for a while.

If we were actually safe then we would be placing a lot higher overall tbh. I personally know the anti-Ganon strats and the top players in Canada know it as well 100%.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

There has never been any group of individuals that tried to push a particular character's anti-Ganon meta, and I don't see it happening any time soon unless all of us surpass the top Ganons and show everyone he is a threat. There are only select individuals that are really good at the matchup. We're safe for a while.

You'd be surprised by the number of Marth players that know the matchup. I think the father north you go on the east coast, the more good Marths there are and the more likely it is they've been exposed to Kage.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't think Kage is anywhere near perfect vs Marth (no offense meant). He's obviously the best or one of the best vs Marth, but not because his anti-marth tactics are perfect. People picking up on his habits isn't the same as them being able to take out a near perfect Ganon.

Ganon's lack of good placings has more to do with Ganon being mid ("low" lol) tier, ppl getting generally better, and lack of representation imo... Those, and basically that we aren't good enough. Not because so many people are really prepared for top level Ganon.

No Ganon main has ever reached Ganon's full potential in all matchups. Certain aspects of their play is pretty damn close but as a whole, no.

There are just more marths up north lol. They aren't insanely good vs Ganon imo.

When I say top level I don't mean the best Ganon, I mean a theoretical near perfect Ganon.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I feel like in day to day play of Melee, the most important thing to consider is your average skill throughout a period of time. The problem I see with this "optimal" Ganon is that in theory, he needs to play at his peak pretty consistently for him to win all the matchups and obstacles he will face in bracket. It's very rare for anyone to be playing at their peak or "maximum potential."

I strongly believe that when Ganon is playing on average, even if it's the best Ganon in the world, will still lose to most matchups that are also playing average. Ganon really only makes upsets and good wins when he is playing out of his mind. It's unrealistic to think that a Ganon can always be playing at their peak, it's just not in human nature to do that.

Let's take Marth for instance vs some matchups. I believe he has to be playing higher than average to beat a good Sheik. The same goes for against a good Puff and a good Falcon. For Fox, Falco, Peach, and another Marth, Marth doesn't need to be playing above average to win those matchups. He could even be playing below average and still contend very well with the space animals. I feel like that's what Mew2King ultimately is trying to do. He's trying to take the matchups that he does best with on average and play them out. It's why he tends to play as Sheik vs Falcon instead of Marth, or Fox vs Puff instead of Sheik or Marth. He realizes that the average play beats those characters most of the time and that's why he's very hard to beat.

A Ganon could certainly have a solid breakout tournament, but that usually only happens once in a blue moon. Ganon on average is not going to get that far in brackets today. Even with all the theory and stuff we know, it's looking like it's aiming more towards Ganon needing to be played at peak in order for him to even go toe-to-toe with the other top tiers.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I get top level marth practice all the damn time. Dart is good as **** in the matchup and I can tell it's doable. He's a way better player than I am and he's extremely capable when it comes to ganon. I've played moon and same story - doable matchup. I'm not sure why some of you actually believe marth is an unwinnable matchup. Ganon combos marth well, edge guards REALLY well, and has answers to pretty much everything marth does in terms of approaches.

Is it in marth's favor? Absolutely. Is it winnable? Of course. It's one of ganon's easiest top tier matchups, on the same level as peach. You guys need to space better and up air more. Try to read when marth is going to cross you up, it's actually a pretty free punish... Nair / fair crossups leave marth with a lot of options, but they're all punishable.

Top level marths I've played:

Dart!
Colbol
The Moon
Swiftbass
Cactuar
Vro
Kels

The only time that I really got wrecked was playing against colbol, and I feel it was due to his extensive knowledge in the ganon matchup; I was getting read REALLY hard, not getting beaten by the character. Every other marth, I'm able to keep it respectable with, if I'm losing, it's because of the skill of the player, as opposed to the character.

Compare that with top level foxes or (god forbid) sheiks and I get **** on and I can clearly tell that the matchup plays a bigger role. I could see a top level ganon beating any marth.

 

[Linguini]

I meant that I do study matchups all the time and took every trick possible in order to make a matchup the best it can be. I still cant execute everything perfectly but its not because of that I lose a matchup. I'm saying it's really easy to outplay a Ganon in general once you know what he can do in neutral. And of course everyone can improve more, this game is hard as ****.

These aren't any new discoveries though lol, we've known that ganon can lose in neutral hard for years. Just gotta playb a bettr neutral than your opponent. Saying that you've done every trick/start possible is obviously not true though. I certainly got a lot of stuff I need to work on as well. Especially my fox for vs sheik.

I played colbol's marth a lot a few weeks ago, destroyed that ish lol. Can't wait for the smash house in a few weeks. Gonna test alot of new tactics out there. I haven't spent a whole weekend playing smash since ceo

Does anybody know if Ganon can up smash oos on Fox/Falco's firebird? This could be some controller throwing new age tech. lol You won't ever have to worry about the spacies charging you head on with up-b. It'd be a great mixup to force them to always go for the ledge or have to immediately side-b. (gimmielegde) Problem is; I've been having trouble getting the upsmash to come out because the shield stun duration is so long that it seems like there's a specific timing to it.

Edit post: Nevermind, I actually just found out that if you face Ganon in the opposite direction of the spacies firebird, then Ganon's upsmash should have enough time to catch them on their freefall. The reason why you have to face Ganon in the opposite direction is because Ganon's feet will hit past them because of the slow start up. <---(this part is speculation) It seems to work really well if they're coming from below the stage and they want to hit your shield while being able to recover. You just have to make sure your shield is full, because you don't want burnt toenails.

lol jason back in 07-08 I used to use u smash a lot to counter firebirds onto the stage. It's not good to use much though. It's a strong commitment and not many spacies go straight at you any more although in certain situations it would be pretty beast. Weeyand straight into your d!ck ( I call the front of the u smash the d!cksmash)

 

[tm]

And at any point he sh rising fairs, you can side-b him from your DD. I know tm can react quick enough lol.

Wait... I can? Great post btw.

I don't think Kage is anywhere near perfect vs Marth (no offense meant). He's obviously the best or one of the best vs Marth, but not because his anti-marth tactics are perfect. People picking up on his habits isn't the same as them being able to take out a near perfect Ganon.

Ganon's lack of good placings has more to do with Ganon being mid ("low" lol) tier, ppl getting generally better, and lack of representation imo... Those, and basically that we aren't good enough. Not because so many people are really prepared for top level Ganon.

No Ganon main has ever reached Ganon's full potential in all matchups. Certain aspects of their play is pretty damn close but as a whole, no.

There are just more marths up north lol. They aren't insanely good vs Ganon imo.

When I say top level I don't mean the best Ganon, I mean a theoretical near perfect Ganon.

Agree 100%.

Kinda crazy that Duck's marth is beating Kage already. He improved it really fast

I feel like in day to day play of Melee, the most important thing to consider is your average skill throughout a period of time. The problem I see with this "optimal" Ganon is that in theory, he needs to play at his peak pretty consistently for him to win all the matchups and obstacles he will face in bracket. It's very rare for anyone to be playing at their peak or "maximum potential."

I strongly believe that when Ganon is playing on average, even if it's the best Ganon in the world, will still lose to most matchups that are also playing average. Ganon really only makes upsets and good wins when he is playing out of his mind. It's unrealistic to think that a Ganon can always be playing at their peak, it's just not in human nature to do that.

Let's take Marth for instance vs some matchups. I believe he has to be playing higher than average to beat a good Sheik. The same goes for against a good Puff and a good Falcon. For Fox, Falco, Peach, and another Marth, Marth doesn't need to be playing above average to win those matchups. He could even be playing below average and still contend very well with the space animals. I feel like that's what Mew2King ultimately is trying to do. He's trying to take the matchups that he does best with on average and play them out. It's why he tends to play as Sheik vs Falcon instead of Marth, or Fox vs Puff instead of Sheik or Marth. He realizes that the average play beats those characters most of the time and that's why he's very hard to beat.

A Ganon could certainly have a solid breakout tournament, but that usually only happens once in a blue moon. Ganon on average is not going to get that far in brackets today. Even with all the theory and stuff we know, it's looking like it's aiming more towards Ganon needing to be played at peak in order for him to even go toe-to-toe with the other top tiers.

IMO that's just the nature of playing almost all bad MUs. Swallowed that pill a long time ago. Plus, only the best 2-4 ganons are the only ones that play at a level where execution needs to be on point to win [IMO].

I get top level marth practice all the damn time. Dart is good as **** in the matchup and I can tell it's doable. He's a way better player than I am and he's extremely capable when it comes to ganon. I've played moon and same story - doable matchup. I'm not sure why some of you actually believe marth is an unwinnable matchup. Ganon combos marth well, edge guards REALLY well, and has answers to pretty much everything marth does in terms of approaches.

Is it in marth's favor? Absolutely. Is it winnable? Of course. It's one of ganon's easiest top tier matchups, on the same level as peach. You guys need to space better and up air more. Try to read when marth is going to cross you up, it's actually a pretty free punish... Nair / fair crossups leave marth with a lot of options, but they're all punishable.

Top level marths I've played:

Dart!
Colbol
The Moon
Swiftbass
Cactuar
Vro
Kels

The only time that I really got wrecked was playing against colbol, and I feel it was due to his extensive knowledge in the ganon matchup; I was getting read REALLY hard, not getting beaten by the character. Every other marth, I'm able to keep it respectable with, if I'm losing, it's because of the skill of the player, as opposed to the character.

Compare that with top level foxes or (god forbid) sheiks and I get **** on and I can clearly tell that the matchup plays a bigger role. I could see a top level ganon beating any marth.

word. I keep it close with (and can sometimes beat) marths way better than me and I haven't even played the MU very much. Definitely easier than spacies/puff/sheik/falcon imo.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I don't think Kage is perfect either. My point was more that Marths are learning the matchup in certain regions more than others. But just to be clear, my opinion of this matchup is rooted more in theory than from my experiences or others.

I'm going to reiterate this: I'm talking about theoretical top level Marth vs theoretical top level Ganon. A highly optimized Ganon is certainly going to beat a Marth that's not on the same level in the matchup. But he's going to lose to the top level Marth. That's my definition of unwinnable. That isn't to say it isn't winnable at the lower levels of the matchup. That's why I say that pushing the matchup is cool.

I see a lot of discussion about what Ganon can do to Marth, but not really much about what Marth has on Ganon. The only thing that's being shown is that the matchup is volatile. But that's not really enough. If all volatile matchups were doable, Ganon players wouldn't be losing to Sheik so much.

Everything is relative when you're analyzing a matchup. For example, I think we can all agree Ganon has the tools to combo Marth hard. So it's tempting to think, "oh yeah, the matchup can't be too bad." But in the context of the matchup, Ganon loses to Marth. Marth has numerous ways to 0 to death Ganon on reaction. Ganon can do the same, but has to read at least once. So it doesn't matter how well he punishes, he loses that aspect of the matchup.

Compare this to Peach, a matchup many consider about the same as Marth. Peach has tech chase and combos off dash attack. But her combos are mainly 2-3 hit strings, just like Ganon. This is a time where saying "Ganon punishes hard" actually means something because his punishes are hard relative to her and what other characters can do.

If you apply this logic to the matchup, Ganon loses everywhere. I think one of the reasons it seems so good is because of the reversal potential Ganon has on Marth. It's much easier for Marth to mess up a juggle when Ganon can challenge him coming down with a dair if he isn't precise. Compare that to a falcon uair juggle where Ganon is gonna get stuffed immediately. This reversal isn't true counterplay, as it relies on Marth messing up. And outside edgeguards, I think that's the story of the matchup-Ganon capitalizing hard on **** ups. Who cares if Ganon can deal with every approach (which isn't completely true depending on how you define "deal with") if Marth doesn't need to approach and Ganon has no approach options? That's basically saying, "Ganon can handle Marth until he starts playing the matchup correctly." And you know what, I hope that day never comes because I enjoy fvcking Marth up and plan to play Ganon in that matchup as long as I can. But that doesn't change the fact it's a theoretically unwinnable matchup. Currently winnable, yes. See the difference?

 

[tm]

I basically agree, but by that logic the other 5 matchups I listed are also unwinnable.

Ganon does have true mixups in neutral, there just aren't very many. Plus at that point you're talking about someone so good that they never misspace, never attacks when it can be CC'd, etc. etc.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I basically agree, but by that logic the other 5 matchups I listed are also unwinnable.

Ganon does have true mixups in neutral, there just aren't very many. Plus at that point you're talking about someone so good that they never misspace, never attacks when it can be CC'd, etc. etc.

I believe Ganon has more legitimate counterplay and DI options against Falco to make it near even. Falco has to use DI mixups to combo Ganon once he's SDIing shines well. Plus, Ganon deals with falco pressure really well.

Puff I am unsure of. I think Ganon might be able to juggle her without her being able to get down. And how is she going to approach Ganon if he keeps running away? He can't approach her either, though. Not to mention, Ganon can move around faster than her.

Everyone else you listed I believe is unwinnable.

 

[Renth]

If I hear one more falco vs ganon debate on this forum I'm going to commit suicide.

It's even

Shut up.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Do these marths you guys are fighting do the fthrow/bthrow/dthrow thing where they dash dance/wavedash and you can't tech anywhere but if you don't tech they jab you so you get back up and start the whole thing over? Right until you end up dtilted off the edge into inevitable doom?

cause that's what pp did to my ganon back in college, and not getting grabbed was pretty hard. if all these other marths are just trying to juggle you, they're being nice.

I only ask because without this techchase/chaingrab deal, i can imagine the matchup being pretty "fightable". but once every grab leads to death, and most dtilts lead to grab, it becomes pretty damn annoying.

 

[-ACE-]

If I hear one more falco vs ganon debate on this forum I'm going to commit suicide.

It's even

Shut up.

LOL

 

[F. Stein]

Leveled up again, 7th at the weekly in the big town an hour away.

Barely lost to a C.Falcon on stream and then barely lost to a campy shiek. I know the matchup is utter garbage but if shiek wants to needle spam and dash dance a lot, what are my options? Retreat to ledge and wait?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Do these marths you guys are fighting do the fthrow/bthrow/dthrow thing where they dash dance/wavedash and you can't tech anywhere but if you don't tech they jab you so you get back up and start the whole thing over? Right until you end up dtilted off the edge into inevitable doom?

cause that's what pp did to my ganon back in college, and not getting grabbed was pretty hard. if all these other marths are just trying to juggle you, they're being nice.

I only ask because without this techchase/chaingrab deal, i can imagine the matchup being pretty "fightable". but once every grab leads to death, and most dtilts lead to grab, it becomes pretty damn annoying.

This is what many Marth players I've encountered will do. And it's not like this is a new thing Marths are doing--this has been happening to me since day one. I just didn't really think about how good this and Marths other setups are relative to what Ganon has on him until recently.

 

[-ACE-]

Vs Marth I pretty much techroll into the center of the stage and eat a few regrabs, and switch it up when I feel the time is right. Techrolling to ledge is asking to die.

B Bl@ckChris PP has been doing that for yeeears. Marth has nasty tech traps, not just on Ganon.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Right. And maybe I'm just bad for assuming pp levels of reactions, skill, conditioning, and such, but like... Idk that **** was demoralizing. He didn't. Miss. And eventually he'd tipper fsmash out if it and no matter where I started if I got off stage it was over.

I just get triggered when I think of top level marth... Junior/senior year was great times and terrible times lmao

 

[Coastward]

alright, back from my break.

the kid is back.

 

[-ACE-]

Right. And maybe I'm just bad for assuming pp levels of reactions, skill, conditioning, and such, but like... Idk that **** was demoralizing. He didn't. Miss. And eventually he'd tipper fsmash out if it and no matter where I started if I got off stage it was over.

I just get triggered when I think of top level marth... Junior/senior year was great times and terrible times lmao

In what way did I imply you're bad??? The ****? In many ways he's the best marth on Earth lmao. Marth has tech traps. He abuses them well. End of story. I was only saying techroll towards the edge is giving him the KO early/relinquishing any chance you have at survival. If you make them work for it you get out a lot more often.

 

[tm]

Do these marths you guys are fighting do the fthrow/bthrow/dthrow thing where they dash dance/wavedash and you can't tech anywhere but if you don't tech they jab you so you get back up and start the whole thing over? Right until you end up dtilted off the edge into inevitable doom?

cause that's what pp did to my ganon back in college, and not getting grabbed was pretty hard. if all these other marths are just trying to juggle you, they're being nice.

I only ask because without this techchase/chaingrab deal, i can imagine the matchup being pretty "fightable". but once every grab leads to death, and most dtilts lead to grab, it becomes pretty damn annoying.

SDI the jab?

 

[tm]

Leveled up again, 7th at the weekly in the big town an hour away.

Barely lost to a C.Falcon on stream and then barely lost to a campy shiek. I know the matchup is utter garbage but if shiek wants to needle spam and dash dance a lot, what are my options? Retreat to ledge and wait?

Take space until she's cornered. Unlike spacies she can't just projectile the **** out of you, you should be able to shield needles almost all the time.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, you can reactively shield needles pretty easily. I used to have a lot of problems with needle approaches, but it's actually pretty telegraphed a lot of the time. Avoiding needles when you're at 0% is sort of important, as the chain grab doesn't start until ~7 or so. Although any sheik that knows the matchup will just reaction tech chase the first time, so you're kind of screwed anyway.

Needles are annoying when trying to recover and annoying when you think you have an opportunity for an up air and get stuffed. Sometimes you can trade though and it's not so bad.

Needles are not what make this a ****ty matchup lol.

edit: good stuff making top 8 though. Definitely a start.