Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

Had to pause. LOL at 1:45 commentary. We're literally dissecting that now.

So ****ing dumb LOL. Marth main on the commentary somehow doesn't believe it's true either (sh double fair NOT wrecking ganon). Champaign smasher PRZ said marth ganon is free because sh double fair can't be beaten. I calmly told him that I can up air or nair out of shield even if you're spacing perfectly and he money matched me. Eaassssssy 2-0 lol. I will say though his marth is decent.

For some reason, they think vro told them that sh double fair is unbeatable? But you don't see vro doing that against me lmao. Dart used to believe it too until I started up airing him... but dart is smart and will amend his playstyle and matchup strats once he knows something doesn't work.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon side-b.
Hit Window: 15-34

So from the time you see the initial visual cue from the first fair (which seems to be 1 frame before hitbox), you have about 29 frames to input the side B and have it land. A lot of people say 12 frames is normal reaction (which I think applies when you're gunning for the side-b, focusing on the b button and hitting it when you see the fair), then you'd have to add more for other factors in the game... Damn this makes it look like the side-b would have to be close to fp, as in, pretty close distance. Sometimes I really think I can react faster than the average human (honestly). Magic lol. I've pulled this off countless times, Marth doesn't know what hit him.

DON'T QUOTE ME

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Played against this Yoshi main in Chicago the other night that had Ganon xp. He claimed to have taken a game off Eddy when they played. First time playing someone actually competent with that character. I won most of our games, but got rekt a little bit. That matchup is ****ing weird. Yoshi's juggle game on Ganon is strong. And he can actually tank you sometimes. But I figured out Ganon has a chaingrab for a little bit. And you can space him out pretty well.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah you can't really approach a good yoshi, it's tough similar to a good G&W. I've lost 2 sets before against a good yoshi in SFL learning that matchup. Used to think I was ok after beating v3ctorman in several friendlies but yoshi's have come a long way since then. Gotta out space the **** out if of them and SDI combos.

 

[Divinokage]

Everywhere I go there's prodigies.. omg.. in one or 2 years from now i wouldn't even be surprised if they beat some current top players. These guys have only played 1 year and already beating really good players, everyone needs to stay on their toes because the new gen is coming! I've been visiting a lot of remote regions since March and there's PLENTY of hidden bosses atm.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Question:

What do you guys think is optimal in this situation?

You're near the right side of FD, facing ledge (facing right), and close to ledge, but not so close that if a fastfaller (fox, falco, falcon) DI's a dthrow away he'll be able to ledge cancel (he'll still be on stage).

If you grab in this situation, and he DI's away, some good options are

A) regrab

B) turnaround AC bair to cover tech in place, so you can dash jc grab if he rolls behind (wizzy techchase)

C) dtilt before they tech (80-90% gives free aerial offstage, below that there are other follow-ups depending on DI)

D) dsmash (if you charge it they can react and roll to ledge to evade, but second hit leads nicely to uair offstage)

E) ftilt them offstage (90-110%)

F) uthrow instead (DI behind means regrab 55-85/90ish%, DI away creates possible edgeguard)

Of course it'll depend on percent. What do you guys like to do?

All of those are pretty good options if you ask me. One option I was thinking of was doing similar to what the "Wizzrobe" method is, but instead of going for a JC grab on the tech roll in, you space a dtilt to hit them. That way you don't have to move far to hit your opponent with something, and all the time you take to run forward and JC grab someone might be enough time for them to spot dodge. I haven't labbed this yet, so I would need to try it out. Like max range bair into max range dtilt all facing the same direction. I think it would work.

DON'T QUOTE ME

Okay fine geez.

Also nice sig btw Ace

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yoshi is a pretty good matchup for ganon IMO. It's mad weird though and difficult to learn. A few tips / gimmicks in the matchup:

1. When yoshi does his egg stall on the ledge, you can downward angled ftilt through the eggs. There's actually one frame of vulnerability there, and since your ftilt completely negates the eggs, this is actually an unsafe stall tactic.

2. Edge guarding yoshi is weird, you don't wanna bair / fair because the super armor will block it and they can air dodge, making it back safely. What I like to do is up air (reverse) through it, which breaks it, and then fall down with another up air. Should hit before they can nair out of it. Lol ripple used to get so mad when I did that. It is kinda bs.

3. Yoshi players like to spot dodge (it's pretty decent) and roll. If they spot dodge, watch out for the dsmash. It sends you at a weird angle, so if they have frame advantage, you can bet they're gonna go for it. Be ready to amsah tech it. If you have time, you should try and stomp after the spot dodge. Seriously though, the dsmash is like clockwork.

4. Yoshi juggles on ganon are pretty good, but they're beaten the same way as DK juggles - DI off stage. Yoshi won't really follow you off stage and as long as you save that double jump, you should be able to recover safely. Watch out for eggs though, you can't stomp through them.

Grim, was it mr. boffo? He's pretty good, but I kinda bodied him lol, not gonna lie. It's all about knowing the matchup, and like many of my most well known matchups, it's a weird one. Ripple plays a lot of characters well and they're all weird and gimmicky lol. Too bad our schedules didn't work out this time, but I'm sure we'll play some other time, especially if you have family out this way.

 

[Linguini]

Sup homies, you might've seen a few weeks back I released some music online. It was exclusive on beatport but now is available on iTunes for only 2 bux. Would appreciate the support; and of course the more I make from music the more tournies I can go to in the future.

Here's the link:
Somebody - Single by Meeels
https://itun.es/us/ppfIdb

Been taking a lil break from smash lately. Should be back in it by the next couple weeks, getting the itch to fist ppl again lool

 

[Ripple]

blah.

there's a special place in my heart listening to pseudo continue to reference me in here. so I come back once in a blue moon

 

[PseudoTurtle]

there's a special place in my heart listening to pseudo continue to reference me in here. so I come back once in a blue moon

I still consider the time period when we played the time that I learned the most about this game.

edit: ripple's the man

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I think it was. When first started playing I was 5 drinks deep and drank a lot more over the course of the session. So I was definitely not playing at my best lol. We were also just ******* around a good amount.

 

[Diosama]

Yoshi's weight and fall speed are almost identical to Ganon. If you're unsure about what to followup with, think of what you'd use in a Ganon ditto.

1 very important tip when trying to edgeguard Yoshi is that his dj armor weakens the higher % he is, so trying to upair him as soon as he djs will get you ez kills. Otherwise, watch out for an air dodge.

 

[Bwmat]

"his dj armor weakens the higher % he is, so trying to upair him as soon as he djs will get you ez kills"

?
Could you elaborate?

 

[-ACE-]

Yoshi's weight and fall speed are almost identical to Ganon. If you're unsure about what to followup with, think of what you'd use in a Ganon ditto

I'd never lose to any yoshi if it was anything like a ditto lol. I was one hit away from being 2-2 vs n0ne in dittos (MM), been beat by a yoshi that is nowhere near n0ne's skill or Ganon exp. When I auto-pilot I can still do well in dittos and sadly in tourney I can auto pilot somewhat often.

Ripple
https://youtu.be/Dd7FixvoKBw?t=44s
0:44-1:12

 

[tauKhan]

1 very important tip when trying to edgeguard Yoshi is that his dj armor weakens the higher % he is, so trying to upair him as soon as he djs will get you ez kills. Otherwise, watch out for an air dodge.

Yoshi's dj armor always reduces 120 kb, and if there's 0 kb left after the reduction, the dj will continue uninterrupted. Of course ganon's strong aerials are excellent at exceding the 120kb mark: Fresh stomp will break the armor at 11%, fair at 28%, bair at 44% and the strongest hit of uair at 54% .

 

[Diosama]

I'd never lose to any yoshi if it was anything like a ditto lol. I was one hit away from being 2-2 vs n0ne in dittos (MM), been beat by a yoshi that is nowhere near n0ne's skill or Ganon exp. When I auto-pilot I can still do well in dittos and sadly in tourney I can auto pilot somewhat often.

Ripple
https://youtu.be/Dd7FixvoKBw?t=44s
0:44-1:12

I'm not saying it's like a ditto. I'm saying if anyone unexpectedly has to play a Yoshi, just think of ditto combos, that way you're somewhat better off than going in completely blind

 

[Swagic]

Yoshi is completely screwed whenever he's offstage (and not grabbing the ledge). Fresh stomp breaks armor at 11%. Switch it up with fair above 30% to keep him guessing. If he uses a lot of DJC, you have to punish those. I'd recommend FD as the ban, because no platforms to break up the eggs.

On small stages, hit hard during the DJC. On stages with big edges, edgeguard hard. Always be careful around a grounded Yoshi, Parry has the potential to be almost as useful as shine. (Note: has the potential, not absolutely is) Use your space, play smart. Yoshi has a fair bit of cooldown on most of his attacks, you can punish that easily. An aggressive Yoshi is easy to beat. A bad defensive Yoshi isn't too difficult, but a high-quality, consistent, defensive Yoshi is the hardest version (still in Ganon's favor imo).

Oh, and beware the tongue. If you get stuck in an egg, be prepared to basically eat a Peach dsmash.

Optimal play, I'd give it 55-45 Ganon, MAYBE 60-40.

 

[-ACE-]

Taukhan with useful info wtf

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Swagic, there's a little bit of misinformation in that post, but most of it is good. When yoshi's super armor "breaks," he's still in fall animation - he doesn't really get sent anywhere, he just stops jumping, he can air dodge, nair, etc. Fair is decent as always, but at the higher % (which is when you're most likely to be edge guarding), I'm talking 75-ish +, I'd really recommend doing the reverse up air. As taukhan mentioned, strongest hit of up air breaks at 54%, so probably the reverse strong hit will be something like 65% (total guesswork though), and then before he can even do anything else, he's falling right alongside you at which point, you can up air again. IMO it's definitely a better option. Guaranteed death as opposed to breaking armor and hoping to hit him again.

But, if at around 30%, you should go for fair, it just likely won't be an edgeguard scenario is the only thing.

FD is actually really bad for yoshi, from what I've been told. A lot of his movement relies on platforms - just watch aMSa play, he wavelands all over those things, dare I say it, more than a ganon does. Eggs aren't really that much of a problem for ganon at all unless you're getting edge guarded or he's trying to hit you on the way down after a juggle (which also isn't that bad, as it isn't a setup in that case, just extra percent).

You're right about a grounded yoshi. Basically the same as with any opponent, if you think they're going to shield, tomahawk grab can beat it (assuming they're parrying the aerial and not the grab).

Yoshi's approaches are all gimmicks basically IMO. It's mostly tricky waveland DJC stuff that messes with your spacing. Give him a little more space than you'd normally anticipate and walling with bairs / tilts is always really good (as always).

When you get eaten by the tongue, it's kind of an even trade if yoshi decides to go for the dair lol just hold down and mash the a button and you'll stomp him. Actually works pretty much 100% of the time after yoshi dair.

Optimal play, ganon wins at least 60-40 IMO.

edit: what I said about the super armor may not actually be true for stomp - stomp may or may not actually fully break it and meteor spike him.

 

[Swagic]

Swagic, there's a little bit of misinformation in that post, but most of it is good. When yoshi's super armor "breaks," he's still in fall animation - he doesn't really get sent anywhere, he just stops jumping, he can air dodge, nair, etc. Fair is decent as always, but at the higher % (which is when you're most likely to be edge guarding), I'm talking 75-ish +, I'd really recommend doing the reverse up air. As taukhan mentioned, strongest hit of up air breaks at 54%, so probably the reverse strong hit will be something like 65% (total guesswork though), and then before he can even do anything else, he's falling right alongside you at which point, you can up air again. IMO it's definitely a better option. Guaranteed death as opposed to breaking armor and hoping to hit him again.

But, if at around 30%, you should go for fair, it just likely won't be an edgeguard scenario is the only thing.

FD is actually really bad for yoshi, from what I've been told. A lot of his movement relies on platforms - just watch aMSa play, he wavelands all over those things, dare I say it, more than a ganon does. Eggs aren't really that much of a problem for ganon at all unless you're getting edge guarded or he's trying to hit you on the way down after a juggle (which also isn't that bad, as it isn't a setup in that case, just extra percent).

You're right about a grounded yoshi. Basically the same as with any opponent, if you think they're going to shield, tomahawk grab can beat it (assuming they're parrying the aerial and not the grab).

Yoshi's approaches are all gimmicks basically IMO. It's mostly tricky waveland DJC stuff that messes with your spacing. Give him a little more space than you'd normally anticipate and walling with bairs / tilts is always really good (as always).

When you get eaten by the tongue, it's kind of an even trade if yoshi decides to go for the dair lol just hold down and mash the a button and you'll stomp him. Actually works pretty much 100% of the time after yoshi dair.

Optimal play, ganon wins at least 60-40 IMO.

edit: what I said about the super armor may not actually be true for stomp - stomp may or may not actually fully break it and meteor spike him.

I know stomp spikes. It's fun to land.

The FD thing was more about egg-stalling at the ledge. If you try to be aggressive and beat it, or even just DD back and forth within that range (which is deceptively large). Easy strategy to beat, but FD is also not great for Ganon in general, and the other stages are a little better for Ganon anyway.

I think a lot of the trouble Ganons have with Yoshi is simply the novelty factor. Once you know how to fight, it gets a lot easier.

 

[tauKhan]

When yoshi's super armor "breaks," he's still in fall animation - he doesn't really get sent anywhere, he just stops jumping, he can air dodge, nair, etc.

edit: what I said about the super armor may not actually be true for stomp - stomp may or may not actually fully break it and meteor spike him.

The armor always reduces 120kb and how hard yoshi gets sent is determined solely by the remaining kb regardless of what move hit yoshi (including stomp ofc) . At higher percentages yoshi can still receive considerable kb and stun through the armor: For example fair on dj at 100% will result in kb roughly equivalent to bair at 22% . Lot of the time there won't be a lot of leftover kb though.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Gotcha, swagic. I'd just say stadium would be my personal ban because of the low ceiling. Even though that isn't great for yoshi either, it's ass for ganon (or maybe just me). But the egg stall on the ledge really is bad vs ganon if you're close enough to punish it will downward angled ftilts.

TauKhan that's interesting to note. So my point still stands then, IMO, that an up air chain (one to break armor) and another to be full power is better than just one slightly stronger move to break armor with no guaranteed follow up.

i.e. one fair that equates to 22% vs one up air that may equal 0% but then another at ~70%.

 

[Renth]

@spider_sense good **** beating drunksloth yesterday

I've never lost to sloth before

 

[tauKhan]

How about just going out for a stomp? Yoshi can't meteor cancel after dj, it covers a lot of space and he has very bad hitboxes forward when he's trying to recover. His fair is slow and nair doesn't really have hitbox in front. Also he can't always even aerial early since he needs to get enough speed to reach stage with his dj first.

 

[-ACE-]

I've never lost to sloth before

I've never played him in tournament. We've each beat each other in friendlies

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Sounds to me like you should be doing double dairs against yoshi off stage more often. Just get him off stage over 11% and double dair the poor fella.

Wow that would make this matchup just horrid for Yoshi.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

By all means if he's recovering low, I say go for the dair. It's harder than you'd think to land if he's recovering horizontally. My vote is still cast for double reverse up air for a horizontal recovery and yea stomp for low. EZ. 60-40 ganon's favor at least IMO. Stage dependent.

More vids from the other day:

Me vs kels (falcon) - kels's falcon is actually one of his legit characters and he makes this matchup seem impossible for me lol. I do pretty well vs ORLY and don't generally lose to other Chicago falcons (sets here and there), but damn. I wanna hate kels because he's such a lame player, but he's too much fun of a person. Love that guy.

Me vs flashburn (fox) - This is where I started to play badly. I have problems with stamina it seems. I played horribly, missing technical stuff and easy follow ups. Still won, but should've been a double two stock at least IMO. REALLY dumb dropped edge guards and basic tech flubs.

Me vs wakenvape (peach) - I beat him in winners (four stock one game), and this is his first set over me, ~2 or so years counting. Solid player, and it was due to happen soon enough. I know exactly what happened. After game two, I was tired of playing defensively and just generally worn out. Vro shouted at me to play better during game three lol oops. Eh, playing peach wears me out.

Enjoy if you guys are bored. Not great play by me in general that day. But especially bad after the kels set (which could have been wayyyy better too)

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Man, I wanna play Kels sometime just because of how much he laughs when he plays the game. I can tell he really enjoys himself.

 

[-ACE-]

I played kels at Pound 5. Didn't know who he was LOL. He was actually SHEIKing the **** out of me in friendlies. I was thinking **** this guy is pretty good. Felt better to know it was kelly lmao

 

[Divinokage]

I remember that one time when I was improving and one of the Ganons ****ed up Kels so hard I think it was Linguini actually then from that point on I really wanted to get good at the matchup haha

 

[-ACE-]

That linguini vs kels set is legendary.

 

[Linguini]

lmfaooo kage that's a classic ganon set. camped me all three matches and managed to get in that no di fair skull crusher to take the set. Pretty sure that's the only time I've ever really popped off after winning a set LOL I jumped up and yelled fvck that whack **** straight to his face. I have a history of always bodying the midwest's best..starting with annihilating dope and winning it for the south vs midwest in crews at FCD in 07...damn i'm old......

 

[Divinokage]

lmfaooo kage that's a classic ganon set. camped me all three matches and managed to get in that no di fair skull crusher to take the set. Pretty sure that's the only time I've ever really popped off after winning a set LOL I jumped up and yelled fvck that whack **** straight to his face. I have a history of always bodying the midwest's best..starting with annihilating dope and winning it for the south vs midwest in crews at FCD in 07...damn i'm old......

Haha, always fun to take a trip in memory lane isn't it? Good old times when ****talk had no filter.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I have a history of always bodying the midwest's best

Come to Rubicon so we can body your ass. I bet dart and kelly would have something to say about it. But real talk that set vs kels was actually one of the greats as far as ganon / fox goes. I studied it so hard and still can't ****ing touch Kelly. I don't know how you and kage did it dude you guys are animals.

But yea locke, unless it's a super serious set where money / pride is on the line, he's always laughing and talking **** (like playfully though). Great dude to be around. Not the greatest dude to play though LOL.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Me vs Scythe (falco / falcon) - Pretty sloppy set on both ends. Watch this one if you're bored. I usually do pretty well vs his falco, and after I won game two, I ****ed up hardcore LOL. Forgot he had a falcon. I banned stadium because **** falco on stadium, but then he CP'd me to FD and went falcon. RIP. Not a great set overall, really, but watch if you got nothing better to do.

Me vs azzu (falco) - Arguably the best falco in Chicago (took a game off of SFAT at Rucion, CLOSE SET), so he's legit. Him and I play all the time, so we know each others' patterns and he's got the ganon matchup down to a science. I actually played pretty well, considering. But I still lose to him all the time. Less flubs and dropped edge guards and the set was mine.

I would actually really appreciate an in-depth analysis on this one though because I haven't beaten him in quite a while and my falco matchup is still in a place where I could improve by a significant margin.
-ACE-
@spider_sense
L Linguini

If you would be so kind, I would really appreciate it.

I am SO CLOSE to breaking through and solidifying myself as a top Chicago player. I can bat sago, hot (the marth players), and then some of the other not-quite-top players relatively consistently, but I still can't take more than a set every once in a blue moon vs the Chicago elites. I'm basically the "good player barrier." You beat me consistently, you're good, you don't, you're bad. I can't wait until I'm considered one of the true top players. And as GANON, who nobody really respects here.

 

[-ACE-]

Haha, always fun to take a trip in memory lane isn't it? Good old times when ****talk had no filter.

I leave my **** talk filter at the smashboards login page.

 

[Divinokage]

Come to Rubicon so we can body your ***. I bet dart and kelly would have something to say about it. But real talk that set vs kels was actually one of the greats as far as ganon / fox goes. I studied it so hard and still can't ****ing touch Kelly. I don't know how you and kage did it dude you guys are animals.

But yea locke, unless it's a super serious set where money / pride is on the line, he's always laughing and talking **** (like playfully though). Great dude to be around. Not the greatest dude to play though LOL.

Oh ya my last set with Kels was at FC:L I believe. Those were the times I was able to body almost every Fox lol, I even beat Jman.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Oh ya my last set with Kels was at FC:L I believe. Those were the times I was able to body almost every Fox lol, I even beat Jman.

Was a sick set. I was obligated to cheer for my boy kels (region > character), but I secretly popped off every time you landed a hit lol. Man, FC was a great tournament. Kish (prime) and I both agreed you could've taken mang0 without that SD.

Shoutouts to losing every single set in pools that year though LOL I used to be so, so bad at this game.

 

[-ACE-]

Spider_sense vs porkchops
https://youtu.be/45heW5e-lrg

Spider_sense vs drunksloth
https://youtu.be/fD_DUGQW6N8

Spider_sense vs Blea
https://youtu.be/wqpqTtx__Os

Spider_sense vs lad
https://youtu.be/t_zysDDGqU8

Big Poppa vs Blea
https://youtu.be/ZDm9juDC2kg

Big Poppa vs Prince abu
https://youtu.be/iJrOSEmEnWk

PseudoTurtle I'll look at your set when I can. YouTube is sooooo much better for me tho

 

[Linguini]

Divinokage good times....good times. OOS tourneys just aren't like they used to be...missing that homie vibe

PseudoTurtle Ya sure i'll come over there, just convince your to to fly me out LOL


Started playing again today, prolly hitting up a tourney in orlando next weekend with colbol, plup, gravy, gahtzu etc. Will most likely attend vs this sunday to get back innit