Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

I think the best think about that game is the spacing. Really demonstrates the proper way to play neutral vs Marth. And the edgeguards are also really good. I think this is an area a lot of ganons struggle with against Marth that should be relatively free

 

[F. Stein]

CC all day lol. Dtilt is actually fun in this matchup.

 

[-ACE-]

CC all day lol. Dtilt is actually fun in this matchup.

Dtilt is super good in general, it just can't be used in the wrong situations.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'm still not sure whether dtilt is good vs marth lol. When I land it I'm like yo sick, free fair. But when you whiff... punishment. Big punishment. I still think cc is super good vs aerial-heavy marths, even though kage tends to disagree iirc. cc against fair gets you jab, sometimes grab. cc against nair gets you grab. Only thing you gotta watch out for is the dair. Dart is good enough that when he starts reading my game plan, he'll mix up with dair and cc is rendered useless. And then dtilt heavy marths will punish you big for crouch cancelling.

I can't believe I've been missing so many edge guards against everyone lately. Really makes a huge difference in the outcome of a match. I'll chalk it up to rust for now, but damn if **** doesn't get better, I'm gonna lab super hard. I've been missing free edge guards against falcon and marth lol

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm still not sure whether dtilt is good vs marth lol. When I land it I'm like yo sick, free fair. But when you whiff... punishment. Big punishment. I still think cc is super good vs aerial-heavy marths, even though kage tends to disagree iirc. cc against fair gets you jab, sometimes grab. cc against nair gets you grab. Only thing you gotta watch out for is the dair. Dart is good enough that when he starts reading my game plan, he'll mix up with dair and cc is rendered useless. And then dtilt heavy marths will punish you big for crouch cancelling.

I can't believe I've been missing so many edge guards against everyone lately. Really makes a huge difference in the outcome of a match. I'll chalk it up to rust for now, but damn if **** doesn't get better, I'm gonna lab super hard. I've been missing free edge guards against falcon and marth lol

Why would you fair after dtilting a Marth? That takes too long, and Marth can very easily just jump out of the way or fair you before your fair comes out. Instead do a FH instant upair. It comes out fast enough and from below Marth so that it negates his fair, and if they try to jump over you, you take their double jump with your upair.

 

[-ACE-]

You can get the fair at the higher percents.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Uh you can definitely fair marth at upper mid %. Just sayin. Like ace said

Oook but if you want me to get into specifics, you can only nair and up air safely at low mid % (nair is a good choice, like off of dthrow). Also, a half competent marth won't jump out, that's asking for disaster. But they can fair / nair before your aerial comes out at low %

 

[-ACE-]

Fair and jump are his only options, and like pseudo implied, fair often covers jump.

Fair is often guaranteed in situations where people uair.

 

[Linguini]

Ian and renth have been doing that top plat stomp into plat drop ff stomp forever lol, underused.

SOB. I can Swype the word correctly, and then when I Swype the next word, it'll autocorrect the previous one. ****ing samsung.

I actually invented that back in 08 dave lool. stomp, stomp through plat to grab to platform techase to edguard

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You can't get a grab on Marth/floaties at that percent can you? I've seen/done that to ffers before, but I'm not 100 on that being a universal thing

 

[Divinokage]

I'm still not sure whether dtilt is good vs marth lol. When I land it I'm like yo sick, free fair. But when you whiff... punishment. Big punishment. I still think cc is super good vs aerial-heavy marths, even though kage tends to disagree iirc. cc against fair gets you jab, sometimes grab. cc against nair gets you grab. Only thing you gotta watch out for is the dair. Dart is good enough that when he starts reading my game plan, he'll mix up with dair and cc is rendered useless. And then dtilt heavy marths will punish you big for crouch cancelling.

I can't believe I've been missing so many edge guards against everyone lately. Really makes a huge difference in the outcome of a match. I'll chalk it up to rust for now, but damn if **** doesn't get better, I'm gonna lab super hard. I've been missing free edge guards against falcon and marth lol

Ccing a fair doesnt get you a jab when they spaced it perfectly.

 

[Glennwood]

SDI into walltech if they like fsmash, then upB. **** is actually free as ****
dtilt is harder but still techable
if they're smart and grab ledge, then make it ambiguous as to whether or not you'll make it onstage.
if you can't go low, or if they like to edgeguard from the ledge a lot, just go as high as possible and DI really well.

despite marth's godlike edgeguarding I think it's a lot easier to live than vs a good fox / falco / falcon / sheik / puff
Kage's right tho, you really should be dead every time you get hit offstage, save for some throw mixups.

Ok so the best approach is don't lose in neutral? My SDI wall tech isn't super consistent but it is now in my top priority practice. How should I approach marth in general? I don't go aggressive as I usually do as any half decent marth main has the spacing and ability to see what Ganon is gonna do for the most part, I hate being above a marth too, U tilts and and U air is just ugh. What I've been thinking about trying is playing in shield more, I do fear the grabs but if I can read his Fairs and approaches like that I think it would benefit me more.

 

[-ACE-]

DD is underrated. Be as mobile and patient vs Marth as the stage allows. Some will just approach, some have to be baited. In close quarters, bair his approach or abuse CC. Remember AC aerial has the same landing lag than an empty hop.

I've said this around 5 times now, but you are guaranteed a side-b if he does a rising sh fair, it's given. It takes fast reaction but you can absolutely get it between the fairs of ash double fair. Then uair, techchase, edgeguard.

You're right that neutral means everything. It requires more thought and work for Ganon, but both characters basically put the other offstage after landing the right hit. Just think of the matchup as simply as you should.... put him offstage and edgeguard him.

Use shield DI to to get more shield grabs and make your buffered rolls safer.

Slam away in any situation where you have no good ASDI options and you think you'll get hit. You CAN get out if his combos and get ONE chance to escape via ledge or intelligent tech option if you're smart.

Powershielding is under-practiced/focused on. Think about how cool it would be if you could jab oos. Well after a PS, you can. Know marth's hitboxes and try to do this. Once you have it semi-down you can read when you'll get the PS and input the appropriate counter.

Use aerial baits, NIL instant drop, DD, and empty hop wL to bait him.

YOU HAVE TO OUT SPACE HIM.

"Don't be a *****, beat his ass"

https://youtu.be/NK8Q5HRC1ZA
(0-0:16)

 

[tauKhan]

Remember AC aerial has less landing lag than an empty hop.
...

Think about how cool it would be if you could dash oos or jab oos. Well after a PS, you can.

AC aerials cause exactly same landing as empty hop. PS physical makes normal attacks and smashes possible out of shield release, dash input will still result in a roll. Double shield pushback is also detrimental for counter attacking lot of the time. Good vs cross-up attempts tho.

 

[-ACE-]

You can't dash out of a PS? ****, another magical arrow in my quiver. I guess it seems like you can when you dash into shield and react from it.

 

[-ACE-]

Guys, even tho I have the equivalent of grammar Nazi's ****ting on me every time I don't cross a T, pay attention to that post. I promise it's good ****.

Taukhan, do you have any actual input on Ganon's matchups? Lol.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Full hop fair when Marth is far away is really good. If he doesn't approach you just waveland back, in place, or towards him depending on his habits.

Also remember that if Marth perfectly spaces you can't jab out of cc or shield grab. What you do in these situations is buffer roll once you recognize the spacing is off. The key is messing up his spacing with strategic movement and then reacting appropriately when you're given the visual cue he's safe.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ace, TauKhan is being very matter-of-fact much like how I can be at times. It's likely in his nature to do that because he likes correcting people on common errors and helping by providing facts. If you think he's trying to attack you or get on your case, then you got it the wrong way. I know you don't like it when people are matter-of-fact about things like that, but you don't need to be acting like that towards the guy.

Just don't take it in such a negative light. Maybe accept that you got a few things wrong here and there? I just don't want anyone feeling like they can't voice what they feel in this forum because you have very strong opinions and don't like to be told otherwise.

Just calm it down a little, man. There's a time and place for passive-aggressiveness and it isn't here.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Guys can't we all get along

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Can't. We. All.....just get along

 

[-ACE-]

I mean someone could at least contribute to something Ganon related occasionally instead of solely being a frame Nazi. Locke, I've admitted plenty of times when I'm wrong, not everything I say is right. Same goes for everyone. Didn't you recently make a huge post on how jiggs is the best character in the game? LOL I "rest" my case. Taukhan has been a **** several times in the past also, it's not always just him being matter of fact. Most frame gurus can correct someone without being a ****. Ripple basically came out of retirement just to tell me I was wrong lmao. He contributed nothing.

I like the people who post good Ganon related ****. The ones who try to help others. Because that's what I do. Not the ones who lurk for miniscule mistakes. It doesn't help much.

 

[tm]

Ok so the best approach is don't lose in neutral? My SDI wall tech isn't super consistent but it is now in my top priority practice. How should I approach marth in general? I don't go aggressive as I usually do as any half decent marth main has the spacing and ability to see what Ganon is gonna do for the most part, I hate being above a marth too, U tilts and and U air is just ugh. What I've been thinking about trying is playing in shield more, I do fear the grabs but if I can read his Fairs and approaches like that I think it would benefit me more.

Try to avoid being above him, and try to get underneath him if at all possible. Learn to shield drop if you haven't; it's super useful vs marth. A lot of his stuff is actually unsafe on your shield (fair, utilt, smash attacks, close dtilt) so get good at punishing that stuff when he hits your shield with it. Don't be too shield happy bc a good marth will punish well off of grabs, but it's much safer than getting grabbed by sheik or falcon for example. DI fair AWAY at basically all times. Much more to say but it's all disorganized and all already been said on here at some point

EDIT: regarding TauKhan vs ACE (lol)
If I was a new player, and I read from a respected player that you can dash out of powershield and that AC landing lag is different than empty hop ending lag, I would appreciate someone correcting them in the case that those things weren't true (which is the case). It's not about egos, and it's not about discrediting anyone's advice. It's just correction of facts.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, I goofed up on those. I thought an empty hop had like 3-4 frames of lag and AC had 1. And it looks as if you can dash after a PS even though you can't, because seemingly you can dash into PS into fully approaching sh just like a dashjump. Like the PS stops you for a frame but doesn't kill all dash momentum.

Disclaimer: I'm probably wrong again.

Maybe I just find it easy to correct people in a more polite way. Like something along the lines of "that was a good post, but..." That's the stuff I often do. But I suppose there's nothing wrong with constantly telling one person every time they're wrong (and often being a douche about it) and ignoring any and all good stuff they post while literally contributing nothing else to the forum. That's just how this site is now and I have to deal with it.

 

[Bwmat]

I've said this around 5 times now, but you are guaranteed a side-b if he does a rising sh fair, it's given. It takes fast reaction but you can absolutely get it between the fairs of ash double fair. Then uair, techchase, edgeguard.

Won't that only work if he whiffs the fair? Usually, I would need to shield it, unless I read it and use the side - b to pull back and dodge it.
Edit: or its that what you meant, reading the first fair, and using the pullback to dodge it?

Powershielding is under-practiced/focused on. Think about how cool it would be if you could dash oos or jab oos. Well after a PS, you can. Know marth's hitboxes and try to do this. Once you have it semi-down you can read when you'll get the PS and input the appropriate counter.

Powershielding is like, my special ability. I get it more often than most people I see, but you really need to read it to make full use, and I'm still not consistent enough for that. I've done ps-jab once intentionally and it was beautiful.

Good for shield grabs though. Maybe that's why I still have such a bad shieldgrab habit, don't get punished as often as I should (except for spacies of course, makes me sad when my ps->shieldgrab still gets shined)

Other advice:
- marth's fullhop fair is not safe on your shield (you can hit him with uair oos)
- side-b is good if you read a spaced aerial and he's coming down or short hopping, like ace said
- down throw can usually be regrabbed at 0,not sure if it's guaranteed or how long it goes for, but no more than 10-15%
- down throw to double hit nair also is a thing at really low percents. Again, not sure how guaranteed (haven't been trying this lately, usually go for a regrab instead)
- tipman and eikeldrop wreck him
- you can punish a shielded fsmash with wd oos grab or fair oos, not sure about a tipper, getting a ps helps for sure

IMO Marth is a pretty doable matchup. Still in marth's favor, but one of the easier top tiers.

The most troublesome things he can do IMO are techchase with throws, juggle you in the air with his huge hit boxes, and abuse dtilt(what are you suppose to do when a Marth is spamming dtilt on your shield in the corner? They always fsmash if I jump )

Edit: won my weekly today, but there was only 9 people for some reason, and most of the good people didn't come, so kind of a hollow victory. Didn't lose a match, it's fun wrecking with Ganon in bracket for once lol. Went all Ganon except Falcon for a few fd counterpicks, and Marth against peach on fod when I couldn't ban it for ****s and giggles. Is Marth a peach counter? I'm clueless but it was working pretty well

 

[-ACE-]

Won't that only work if he whiffs the fair? Usually, I would need to shield it, unless I read it and use the side - b to pull back and dodge it.
Edit: or its that what you meant, reading the first fair, and using the pullback to dodge it?

If you react fast enough it can be achieved from distances where the pullback isn't necessary. You can be dash dancing waiting on the fair and if you react quickly you've got him. Yes I mean whiffed rising fair

If you shield a sh rising fair that isn't perfectly spaced, you can also uair oos, not just fullhop fair. Shield DI'ing the fair in helps of course.

Those are my 2 main things vs fair. You just have to REALLY be ready to hit B as soon as you see the fair and you know it won't hit.

Good **** on winning the weekly!

And yeah Marth beats peach imo

Also B Bwmat if Marth is dtilt'ing your shield near ledge you can wd oos to ledge into INV ledgedash, and from there, roll, jab, grab, etc.

 

[-ACE-]

Question:

What do you guys think is optimal in this situation?

You're near the right side of FD, facing ledge (facing right), and close to ledge, but not so close that if a fastfaller (fox, falco, falcon) DI's a dthrow away he'll be able to ledge cancel (he'll still be on stage).

If you grab in this situation, and he DI's away, some good options are

A) regrab

B) turnaround AC bair to cover tech in place, so you can dash jc grab if he rolls behind (wizzy techchase)

C) dtilt before they tech (80-90% gives free aerial offstage, below that there are other follow-ups depending on DI)

D) dsmash (if you charge it they can react and roll to ledge to evade, but second hit leads nicely to uair offstage)

E) ftilt them offstage (90-110%)

F) uthrow instead (DI behind means regrab 55-85/90ish%, DI away creates possible edgeguard)

Of course it'll depend on percent. What do you guys like to do?

 

[Bwmat]

Wd to edge... Good idea. Didn't think of that since I always think about counterattacking the move in front of me, instead of retreating

 

[Bwmat]

I like to read a tech towards ledge against good players (on the theory they know it's bad and know I know it's bad) and try to fair/dair them

LOL

 

[-ACE-]

I like to read a tech towards ledge against good players (on the theory they know it's bad and know I know it's bad) and try to fair/dair them

LOL

After that combo vid material ey? LOL

 

[Bwmat]

I will go for guaranteed stuff when I can, but I go for stupid hard reads and jank stuff for the troll factor

 

[-ACE-]

I will go for guaranteed stuff when I can, but I go for stupid hard reads and jank stuff for the troll factor

First thing I thought of when hard reading techroll to ledge wasn't even the obvious fair lol, I was thinking stomp to wizkick spike.

 

[Bwmat]

I try to wizkick spike edge guard falcon/Ganon recovering high to edge every time in friendlies

Does good psychological damage

 

[-ACE-]

I try to wizkick spike edge guard falcon/Ganon recovering high to edge every time in friendlies

Does good psychological damage

I wizkick spike A LOT. Before I left SFL I got some good wins over Tipman at the tgl tourney (one of us always seems to wreck the other), and I remember once, he went for a recovery spike but it was also offensive, spaced to spike me as I went offstage to edgeguard him. I actually dair'd perfectly, reading his WF, and although his wizkick spike was directly above me, the top of my dair hitbox won the exchange clean and killed him (magic). LOL. He was like "man, I should've known better than to try that on you". He always jokes about me using WF all the time. One time Jason was spiking him almost every stock and he was like "**** you, you've been playing with ace too much" lmao

 

[spider_sense]

Question:

What do you guys think is optimal in this situation?

You're near the right side of FD, facing ledge (facing right), and close to ledge, but not so close that if a fastfaller (fox, falco, falcon) DI's a dthrow away he'll be able to ledge cancel (he'll still be on stage).

If you grab in this situation, and he DI's away, some good options are

A) regrab

B) turnaround AC bair to cover tech in place, so you can dash jc grab if he rolls behind (wizzy techchase)

C) dtilt before they tech (80-90% gives free aerial offstage, below that there are other follow-ups depending on DI)

D) dsmash (if you charge it they can react and roll to ledge to evade, but second hit leads nicely to uair offstage)

E) uthrow instead (DI behind means regrab 55-85/90ish%, DI away creates possible edgeguard)

Of course it'll depend on percent. What do you guys like to do?

Either turn around jab or turn around f-tilt. It usually provides some damage and can potentially give you a solid punish, it generally comes down to guessing whether or not they'll tech the jab or f-tilt (and in most cases they most likely will; with them DIing away or up and away) wizkicks, and side-b's in that situation would be ideal punishes imo

 

[-ACE-]

Either turn around jab or turn around f-tilt. It usually provides some damage and can potentially give you a solid punish, it generally comes down to guessing whether or not they'll tech the jab or f-tilt (and in most cases they most likely will; with them DIing away or up and away) wizkicks, and side-b's in that situation would be ideal punishes imo

I mean if he DI's away (in front of you). I forgot to add ftilt, one of the most obvious choices at 90-110%

 

[Bwmat]

Also, yesterday I was playing some doubles friendlies against a team of spacies on yoshi's. I got a combo of like 10 side-b's on them combined one game, lmao. Wish it was recorded

 

[-ACE-]

spider_sense good **** beating drunksloth yesterday

 

[-ACE-]

It looks to me like there's a 26 frame window between the fairs (no hitbox) of Marth's fp sh double fair. The visual cue seems to come a frame sooner than the initial hitbox. This is a bigger window than I thought, although the side-b startup kinda sucks.

DON'T QUOTE ME, I suck at math, I actually missed one question on the SAT's (scrub status).

B Bwmat this works for falcon too obviously

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Regarding ace's post, at low%, I like to dsmash because it covers every option in this scenario. Usually, you'll get a free up air / fair afterward (dsmash can be weird af). IMO no reason not to dsmash here because it's mostly a guaranteed edge guard setup. The only problem occurs when your opponent techs the dsmash, then you're screwed. But even top level players don't really do that tbh, the only person who has consistently done it to me is ripple.

I like spidey's suggestion of jab / ftilt at higher % because then you don't need to tech chase and it's guaranteed edge guard time (though not always easy edge guards).

I haven't really messed around with pivot AC bair yet for some reason. I know magus suggested it as a tech chase option because it actually does guarantee you a regrab if the bair doesn't connect (3/4 coverage).

Could possibly cover 4/4 with reaction pivot jab if you're at that part of the stage. Like I said though, I haven't really messed with it yet. So I'll lab that one for a little bit.

Here's the awful set vs vro in winner's semis. Winner's semis, yea. Got seeded 14th LOL. Commentary kind of annoyed me too, but I like those guys so whatever. Misinformation is just annoying I guess.

I wasn't playing well at all, very slow movement, and awful tech skill overall. Was scared to go for crazier stuff because I was missing L cancels and other basic tech. The tech skill being bad wasn't even the half of it though, my mentality was just kind of destroyed and I went to auto pilot and couldn't fix it.

At around 4:35 after that 4 stock (LOL), hindawg came up to me and said something like "I know what you're thinking, just play how you were playing. Be patient and beat him again." Kind of crazy how much a mediocre mindset can affect your results.

Rambling aside, vro adapted well, I adapted poorly. But the last two games are a pretty good example of how the spacing has an effect on both characters' punish games in this matchup. Misspaced jabs / tilts by me and well-spaced dash dances by vro won him the set.

Pretty good tournament otherwise though, beat ORLY in winner's 2-1.

Divinokage you're right. Is there anything that can punish after you cc a perfectly spaced fair? Ftilt? Up air? I'm not certain if ganon has the frame advantage at that point.

 

[-ACE-]

Had to pause. LOL at 1:45 commentary. We're literally dissecting that now.