Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

I'd still argue that Marth is Ganon's best Top tier matchup, unless you want to put Ice Climbers into that equation.

 

[Bwmat]

I think you're both right

Well, marth being second is arguable

 

[Divinokage]

I'd still argue that Marth is Ganon's best Top tier matchup, unless you want to put Ice Climbers into that equation.

Peach/Jiggs/Falco is definitely easier than Marth in this meta. Marth can abuse perfect spacing where Ganon cant even press a button at all, if he does then you get comboed but then its really hard to bait him to attack unsafely. Vwins thinks its probably around 6-4. Ive been trying to think of a solution to beat him and others in that matchup but i got nothing except beating them if they become risky in their options. That feeling also happens when i play the moon.

 

[-ACE-]

JIGGS EASIER THAN MARTH???????

Kage share that Quebec green LOL

 

[Divinokage]

JIGGS EASIER THAN MARTH???????

Kage share that Quebec green LOL

Im pretty sure I can beat any Jiggs that isnt Hbox yet every other Marth around my level makes me feel helpless. Follow the meta!

 

[-ACE-]

Im pretty sure I can beat any Jiggs that isnt Hbox yet every other Marth around my level makes me feel helpless. Follow the meta!

Are your marth tactics outdated? Follow the Ganon meta! HBox is the only jiggs that plays the mu well.

 

[Divinokage]

Are your marth tactics outdated? Follow the Ganon meta! HBox is the only jiggs that plays the mu well.

At that level I think I'll just switch. lol

 

[tm]

peach harder than marth?
falco easier than marth?

I must be playing a different game than you guys

 

[Divinokage]

Well.. I'm playing my own game and that's how it feels right now vs the top players. When I'm constantly fighting these guys, the winner generally creates their own definition on how a matchup is being played currently. The matchups are generally proven by the ones who keep winning. I'm not trying to look down, im trying to look above everyone else. Maybe switching is my own answer because I tried a lot of things differently as solo Ganon without much success lately.

Peach is easier than Marth. And of course you are playing a different game, people's styles and experience affect how the game is played.

 

[-ACE-]

I know I'd much rather play the marth's of PPMD, mango, m2k, and PPU than play hbox.

 

[Divinokage]

I know I'd much rather play the marth's of PPMD, mango, m2k, and PPU than play hbox.

I think everyone would like to play anyone than hbox tbh. lol

 

[-ACE-]

I think everyone would like to play anyone than hbox tbh. lol

LOL true. You ready for Diaz vs McGregor 2 this Saturday?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Marth is easier than falco.
Marth is easier than puff.
Marth is probably the second best character in the game.
Marth may or may not be an easier matchup than peach - imo depends on the stage, and keep in mind edge guarding marth is way easier than edge guarding peach.

Kage, you've mentioned before that vwins is one of your demons, no? Maybe it's a player thing rather than a character thing. You've beaten the moon before and in my opinion (which could obviously be incorrect), when he beat you, I could sense a bit of hesitation in your play. Maybe not though. Which other marths have really given you any problems?

Duck beating tm with marth may be just because duck is a better player. Hell, I consider marth my best matchup by a long shot and I still have a negative record vs kels's marth (beat him last time though )

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Also lol at linguini beating pork chops with sheik.

Don't make a habit of it

 

[-ACE-]

Also lol at linguini beating pork chops with sheik.

Don't make a habit of it

Evidently I have some versus vids to watch.

****ing sheik. ****ing linguini.

 

[Divinokage]

Some of us have to choose the dark side because we have to get our rent $. While Vwins may be my demon I did beat him 3-0 vs his Peach went Falcon on FD then Ganon on FoD then Falcon on DL. The set I lost he went Peach 1st game on DL vs Falcon then chose Marth on Yoshis vs my Ganon where i got ****ed and i couldnt do anything then 3rd game was kinda like a ****show. Maybe I should have chosen a bigger stage with Falcon vs his Marth, ive beaten him clean in that matchup.

 

[tm]

Marth is easier than falco.
Marth is easier than puff.
Marth is probably the second best character in the game.
Marth may or may not be an easier matchup than peach - imo depends on the stage, and keep in mind edge guarding marth is way easier than edge guarding peach.

Kage, you've mentioned before that vwins is one of your demons, no? Maybe it's a player thing rather than a character thing. You've beaten the moon before and in my opinion (which could obviously be incorrect), when he beat you, I could sense a bit of hesitation in your play. Maybe not though. Which other marths have really given you any problems?

Duck beating tm with marth may be just because duck is a better player. Hell, I consider marth my best matchup by a long shot and I still have a negative record vs kels's marth (beat him last time though )

Learn 2 peach :^)
Duck beating me with marth is because he is a better player, he adapted hella hard from the first 2 games we played.

 

[Linguini]

lmaooo yeah well sheik is actually my secondary and I go her when counterpicked to FoD and vs other sheiks sometimes. Beat chops game one on yoshi's with ganon then two with sheik on fod to reset bracket. After that I switched back to ganon but sadly going sheik had kinda ruined my rhythm with ganon and I got bopped.

Still not too comfortable switching back and forth between characters...been solo maining for so long.

Do what you gotta do kagesters. I feel you I gave up on FoD with ganon and sheik is so good there that it just makes sense.

I'm not really so sure marth vs ganon is that bad. Although "not that bad" with ganon is like 60-40 usually LOL

I've played moon and other marths that play the "new" meta which basically means dd camp and grab. You can beat it but perfect wavelands as well as counterattacks with wd oos are necessary against this strat. Some marths get too comfortable dashing in the corner until you fist them in the ****ing face

 

[Divinokage]

Even then the better Marths can easily see the WD in + can be spaced enough where any attacks OOS will whiff. I dont think its a viable strat anymore unless you can somehow make Marth swing too close.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Divinokage don't get me wrong, I still think ganon vs marth on FD is complete **** lmaoooo

Although "not that bad" with ganon is like 60-40 usually LOL

Good god this is too ****ing true LOL I tell people marth vs ganon is "basically even" and then when I drop the 6-4 stat they say what happened to even?

People are pu$$ies.

 

[Divinokage]

Divinokage don't get me wrong, I still think ganon vs marth on FD is complete **** lmaoooo



Good god this is too ****ing true LOL I tell people marth vs ganon is "basically even" and then when I drop the 6-4 stat they say what happened to even?

People are pu$$ies.

I also felt like by fighting Loki he's better vs my Falcon than my Marth where I wrecked him endlessly.. lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Learn 2 peach :^)

Do not even try to convince me that peach is easier to deal with on Dreamland than marth

Divinokage loki's falcon game has always been pretty good though from what I understand. He performed respectably against mang0's falcon even.

 

[Divinokage]

Do not even try to convince me that peach is easier to deal with on Dreamland than marth

Divinokage loki's falcon game has always been pretty good though from what I understand. He performed respectably against mang0's falcon even.

Ya I think so too but then what if Marth is worse than Falcon in that case? =P

 

[tm]

Do not even try to convince me that peach is easier to deal with on Dreamland than marth

Divinokage loki's falcon game has always been pretty good though from what I understand. He performed respectably against mang0's falcon even.

hmmmm Dreamland I think it's pretty close, I'd rather play marth there personally but you don't really ever get to go there unless it's Bo5. And you don't have to go there vs peach in a Bo3 if you don't want to either. Personally I prefer it to FD but it's definitely preference.

IMO marth wins harder vs ganon than peach does on FD, FoD, and Yoshis

 

[Divinokage]

PseudoTurtle if you did see the DH matches then id say you are right. Im still trying to recover my optimal mindset where i feel unstoppable. It happened in winners but i lost focus in losers. Theres multiple reasons for that i can go through which i think is beneficial for everyone. It has everything to do with the 7 steps of getting into the zone that i had talked about before.

So in losers reason why i lost focus is because i got slightly tilted, my plan fell short a little too. I knew i can succeed however my execution was off in neutral that got me punished + i missed some edgeguards which means if i grind more tech skill and specific situations then it will ease the burden of my mind. When you cant do what you want then youll never be able to enter the godly level needed to surpass your demons. The strat is simple enough once you understand yourself and the game but the requirement to get to that point is very hard to get to. Lots of work is needed but theres definitely a lot of hope right now. If i continue like this im gonna get that top 10 spot again hehe

 

[RedmanSSBM]

tm I think you did very well against Shaeden for the most part. Very few mistakes from you from what I could see. It looked to me like Shaeden was making more mistakes near the end there and you just kept it together the whole time. Duck was just the better player this time, he was smart to cover your down-b recoveries while that was something that Shaeden lacked in doing at times. Both of their neutral is wildly different though, so you might have gotten tripped up by Duck's more reactive neutral and grab-heavy game than Shaeden's aggressive aerial attempts.

 

[tm]

tm I think you did very well against Shaeden for the most part. Very few mistakes from you from what I could see. It looked to me like Shaeden was making more mistakes near the end there and you just kept it together the whole time. Duck was just the better player this time, he was smart to cover your down-b recoveries while that was something that Shaeden lacked in doing at times. Both of their neutral is wildly different though, so you might have gotten tripped up by Duck's more reactive neutral and grab-heavy game than Shaeden's aggressive aerial attempts.

Yeah they were a lot different. Shaeden's grab followups were way more consistent, but Duck took less risks which is generally good vs me lol. Duck used nair a lot which I didn't really know how to deal with until the set was drawing to a close.

At least that's what I think based on memory.

 

[ForTheLulz]

What's the reaction to ledgehop upair on a spacie side-b recovery? I got the tech down to about 95% consistency

do you hear the ping of the recovery (see the side-b start) and just do it

 

[-ACE-]

What's the reaction to ledgehop upair on a spacie side-b recovery? I got the tech down to about 95% consistency

do you hear the ping of the recovery (see the side-b start) and just do it

You could hit them but it wouldn't spike without a read really. I use the ping noise to ftilt side-b on reaction, and ftilt comes out on frame 9 iirc. Tipman spike is frame 16 so you'd be hitting him with an earlier uair hitbox. You'd usually want to be INV also.

 

[tm]

You could hit them but it wouldn't spike without a read really. I use the ping noise to ftilt side-b on reaction, and ftilt comes out on frame 9 iirc. Tipman spike is frame 16 so you'd be hitting him with an earlier uair hitbox. You'd usually want to be INV also.

Still working on that ftilt. I think I got it once ever lol. Fewer times than I've hit the double SSDI -> shieldgrab on sheiks dsmash in tournament x__x

 

[-ACE-]

Still working on that ftilt. I think I got it once ever lol. Fewer times than I've hit the double SSDI -> shieldgrab on sheiks dsmash in tournament x__x

Lol you just get the timing wrong? Or hit the wrong ftilt when reacting quickly

 

[tm]

can't react with that precision and speed. Jabs and fsmashes, and when I do get the ftilt it's not fast enough. I think part of it is me trying to see it instead of turning off my eyes and just listening for it

EDIT: the other part being that I don't practice just standing there to instant ftilt all that much. Usually do ftilts out of landing lag or something where I don't have to move the joystick from neutral to partial super fast.

 

[-ACE-]

It takes practice, at the last second you just need to land and stand briefly, paying attention to the exact height he side-b's at. It's quite possible. High ftilt is great for those spacies that know about your jab and try to go right above it.

 

[Divinokage]

It takes practice, at the last second you just need to land and stand briefly, paying attention to the exact height he side-b's at. It's quite possible. High ftilt is great for those spacies that know about your jab and try to go right above it.

Lol i wonder if that actually works now though that situation doesnt happen that often. Wouldnt side b still go through if he aims at Ganons head?

 

[-ACE-]

Lol i wonder if that actually works now though that situation doesnt happen that often. Wouldnt side b still go through if he aims at Ganons head?

Uhh what?? Lots of Falco's in my experience try to space around your jab. They even still go directly at your jab. Ftilt straight beats side-b EASILY if you time it right.

 

[Divinokage]

Uhh what?? Lots of Falco's in my experience try to space around your jab. They even still go directly at your jab. Ftilt straight beats side-b EASILY if you time it right.

I mean that they wont necessarily go for ledge hop side-B that can get punished by a preemptive bair if they arent careful which means they are already conditioned not to use it. That's why I said it happens rarely at least from my xp. Ill try it as a mix up next time.

 

[-ACE-]

I just mean edgeguarding in general.

 

[ForTheLulz]

can't react with that precision and speed. Jabs and fsmashes, and when I do get the ftilt it's not fast enough. I think part of it is me trying to see it instead of turning off my eyes and just listening for it

EDIT: the other part being that I don't practice just standing there to instant ftilt all that much. Usually do ftilts out of landing lag or something where I don't have to move the joystick from neutral to partial super fast.

I often play on silent not to bother others, and you can def ftilt when you see fox or falco physically go into the sideb animation as well as hearing the ping of the side-b

 

[tm]

I often play on silent not to bother others, and you can def ftilt when you see fox or falco physically go into the sideb animation as well as hearing the ping of the side-b

I don't mean to disrespect you, but that's literally unbelievable.
You're telling me that you can ftilt falco sideB'ing at you with no audio ON REACTION? That would require you to have a sub-9 frame visual reaction time (6 frames on most setups). That's 100ms, which is basically the peak human reaction time for all of humanity lol. Most people are around 200ms-340ms or so.

If you are really sure of yourself, try this:
Get a friend, have them pick falco and stand mid sideB length away from you onstage. Mute the game audio, have them sit behind you, and wear headphones with somewhat loud music so you can't react to seeing or hearing their controller / hands. Have them wait some indefinite amount of time, then sideB at you. Repeat. If you can consistently ftilt this, then I concede.

EDIT: My mistake, you don't actually need 6 frame reaction because the first few hitboxes are back too far to hit you. You would actually need 9ms reaction time on most setups (150ms, still fast as ****)

 

[ForTheLulz]

wow that's actually faster than I thought

it prob must be some sort of anticipation/reaction on my part b/c I don't remember having a reaction time that fast