Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[tm]

You won't get a smash turn will you? I think you need to flick the stick and return to neutral and grab immediately for a true pivot grab. You definitely can't jc grab by holding a direction, unless you slam the stick like a frame before the last move ends

you have to smash turn for jc grab, but for turnaround grab you can input grab at any time during the turnaround (including after the 1st frame) and you will turn around
woops locke beat me to it

 

[Thomas Tipman]

jab = shine

 

[-ACE-]

jab = shine

The Ganon shine baby lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh man. Ever since I got a second controller last week, I've been able to finally use the develop mode properly.

Last night I rekindled my faith in the CG on spacies. Reaction time necessary for it may not be as bad as we once thought.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm going to practice the cg some more. It's not like riding a bike lol, the amount of focus it takes at 50% is crazy. 8 months ago I was pretty money on it

 

[-ACE-]

TGL tomorrow, gravy, colbol, Plup, Blea, linguini, porkchops, etc.

spider_sense picking you up around 1 bruh hit me up.

Definitely catching a fish behind the venue this time, bringing my rod lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm going to practice the cg some more. It's not like riding a bike lol, the amount of focus it takes at 50% is crazy. 8 months ago I was pretty money on it

Currently trying to find the frame at various percents where you are given a noticeable visual cue for DI. If i know this, i can figure out how fast I have to recognize and rest for the hardest option to cover and therefore all other options.

For lower percents of CG where you don't have to dash, you only need to distinguish between two. But later you need to distinguish between potentially 4, but you have more time.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Lol fishing at FL tourneys. Of course

 

[-ACE-]

This is what I think when someone new comes to the Ganon boards and asks a question

https://youtu.be/fgYBzlTqIHY

Then at 1:30 is us trying to explain how to play Ganon.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The developers specifically intended to make it hard to finish off falco on the cg. Look at this bull****.

Off dthrow, down-b starts hitting at 83% (76% prior to dthrow) for no DI or DI away.
Off dthrow, dash jc grab starts becoming necessary to cover DI behind at 83% (same thing).

This is some conspiracy. Ganon did 9/11

 

[tm]

Got a nice set vs KJH. Still lose, and it was cut off, but I was happy with how I played. He messed up way more than usual but it at least seems that I can close the gap now and then.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I did more work on the Falco chaingrab:

At 54% (47 prior to throw) you have to start the dash grabbing to cover DI away. Prior to this, you do not need to move to cover all DI.

You have two DI options to cover. I found that on frame 7 after Falco has been hit, you are given a noticeable visual cue. Basically, his body is in line with your back for DI behind, and his feet stick out past your head for no DI and DI away. Prior to this, all DI looks very similar. Obviously you can notice differences, but unless you are really perceptive you might not see them in real time. I think I need to do some research on what goes into a visual cue to determine some criteria for this before I start identifying visual cue frames for other percents.

Moving on, I found that at 40%, Falco hits the ground on frame 28, meaning you have to grab him by 27. DI behind is the hardest option to cover, as it requires at least an additional frame. Therefore, you need to react to Falco's DI by frame 19 at the latest. That's a 12 frame window starting from the cue.

1000ms / 60 frames = 16.666... ms/frame
12 frames * 16.666 ms/frame = 200 ms

Considering the world record is about 100 ms and the average is 225 ms, this is well within human capabilities. However, 200 is an elite number - only about a quarter of the population has this. But it's definitely attainable for most people if they practice improving their reaction time.

Anyway, dash turn around grab starts at 83% (76%). So from 54% to 83%, you have three DI options to cover: DI in, slight DI and no DI away, and full DI away. This is the next DI range and what I'm going to study next. I think the visual cue will become apparent more quickly, but there are also more possibilities of slight DI to confuse you, so it might be necessary to wait a bit longer to confirm the DI. There's also the possibility of using option selects via dashing certain lengths to cover no DI away, slight DI away, and There's a chance that it might require faster reaction times at this range.

The last range is 83% - x%, where x is the percent turn around down-b works (haven't tested it yet). At this range, you're gonna wanna down-b for no DI and DI away to set up for the kill, ftilt DI behind only if they are close to the ledge (the kb is pretty weak compared to down-b), or regrab. It's pretty much that you might be able to kill early if their DI is bad. Once you hit x%, dthrow should kill, or at least set up for an easy edgeguard. Again, this one also could be harder in some ways.

I'm going to find all the reaction times required at all the percents possible prior to 54% using this method. I'll also be checking to see if the visual cue frame changes. Then I'll do that for the other ranges, starting with the 54 to 83 one. For this one and the last one, I'll be looking for option selects to cover no DI and DI that requires a slight dash. Not to mention, I'll be keeping track of the changing visual cue frames. Once I've done everything for Falco, I'll do it for Fox.

This approach will allow us to set reaction time goals and optimize how we chaingrab spacies. Any ideas, thoughts, criticisms on this approach?

EDIT: I was totally wrong on the reaction time part. I did some research on reaction time and learned about choice reaction time (CRT) , the reaction time for responding to stimuli when at least two options are present. The more options, the slower the CRT is. The average is about 350 ms for four options. I couldn't find the world record anywhere, but I read that it would be "hard to go under 250 ms." That puts a huge damp in the chaingrab in my opinion. Still going to do the tests, but I'm less hopeful than I was at first.

 

[Glennwood]

Me and a buddy are hitting up a local pretty soon and my question is for doubles. We both a run a fairly mean Ganon (I plan on taking mine to singles, him I can't say) and when we team we almost always ditto. Although it usually gets the job done and we have good synergy I'm worried about getting hard countered as we are the same character with the same disadvantages. So my question is, is it worth sacrificing our team synergy so we don't get counter picked as bad? If so who compliments Ganon well in doubles and if not what would be some teams to give a bit more respect to (Ganon being known for the disrespect and all ). I feel like a marth/sheik would be bad to see especially if we wind up going to FD.

 

[Oldiz]

Placed 5th at local and got a juicy dtilt, nair, fair: https://www.twitch.tv/theredsock/v/66213509?t=01h13m48s
Played way too sloppy overall, I really need to practice more.

 

[Bwmat]

Going to the biggest tourney that's happened over here, battle of BC.

My only goal is to not buster out with sds, it's gonna be hard.

 

[-ACE-]

MUST..... RESIST..... BAR.....

 

[Krusteaz]

If I slight DI behind Sheik during her CG is is smart to throw out an Uair? Or is it just safer to land on a platform or waveland away

Also @Coastward idk if you're still taking clips but I've got some decent one's stashed away right here https://www.mediafire.com/#p7h3k4bbo1kqb

 

[-ACE-]

Never allow fd in teams when teaming with falcon LOL

BAN BAN BAN

Also I couldn't get my free $30 gambling money, my ID is scuffed up around my face. Told them I'm just ugly, they didn't buy it

 

[X WaNtEd X]

One of my teammates is falcon and the stage is one of our best. Also I remember seeing hax and Linguini go to fd a lot when they teamed awhile back

 

[X WaNtEd X]

That's some Bs on the bar lol

 

[-ACE-]

Damn lol, never lost in pools before. SD city. Don't miss ledgedashes on game 3 last stock guys, lol.

I actually made it out and didn't know, LOL. I'm an idiot. Totally forgot about a win I had.

 

[ForTheLulz]

damn Lz took both Ace and Tipman out in winners

 

[ForTheLulz]

and spidersense got slaughtered on stream live

 

[-ACE-]

damn Lz took both Ace and Tipman out in winners

Yeah he played fairly well. Really wish I hadn't thrown away stocks vs him, but oh well. It was a good set, went to game 3 last stock.

Still perturbed that they'd put me and Tipman in the same pool although we didn't play.

 

[V_D_X]

So I did more work on the Falco chaingrab:

At 54% (47 prior to throw) you have to start the dash grabbing to cover DI away. Prior to this, you do not need to move to cover all DI.

You have two DI options to cover. I found that on frame 7 after Falco has been hit, you are given a noticeable visual cue. Basically, his body is in line with your back for DI behind, and his feet stick out past your head for no DI and DI away. Prior to this, all DI looks very similar. Obviously you can notice differences, but unless you are really perceptive you might not see them in real time. I think I need to do some research on what goes into a visual cue to determine some criteria for this before I start identifying visual cue frames for other percents.

Moving on, I found that at 40%, Falco hits the ground on frame 28, meaning you have to grab him by 27. DI behind is the hardest option to cover, as it requires at least an additional frame. Therefore, you need to react to Falco's DI by frame 19 at the latest. That's a 12 frame window starting from the cue.

1000ms / 60 frames = 16.666... ms/frame
12 frames * 16.666 ms/frame = 200 ms

Considering the world record is about 100 ms and the average is 225 ms, this is well within human capabilities. However, 200 is an elite number - only about a quarter of the population has this. But it's definitely attainable for most people if they practice improving their reaction time.

Anyway, dash turn around grab starts at 83% (76%). So from 54% to 83%, you have three DI options to cover: DI in, slight DI and no DI away, and full DI away. This is the next DI range and what I'm going to study next. I think the visual cue will become apparent more quickly, but there are also more possibilities of slight DI to confuse you, so it might be necessary to wait a bit longer to confirm the DI. There's also the possibility of using option selects via dashing certain lengths to cover no DI away, slight DI away, and There's a chance that it might require faster reaction times at this range.

The last range is 83% - x%, where x is the percent turn around down-b works (haven't tested it yet). At this range, you're gonna wanna down-b for no DI and DI away to set up for the kill, ftilt DI behind only if they are close to the ledge (the kb is pretty weak compared to down-b), or regrab. It's pretty much that you might be able to kill early if their DI is bad. Once you hit x%, dthrow should kill, or at least set up for an easy edgeguard. Again, this one also could be harder in some ways.

I'm going to find all the reaction times required at all the percents possible prior to 54% using this method. I'll also be checking to see if the visual cue frame changes. Then I'll do that for the other ranges, starting with the 54 to 83 one. For this one and the last one, I'll be looking for option selects to cover no DI and DI that requires a slight dash. Not to mention, I'll be keeping track of the changing visual cue frames. Once I've done everything for Falco, I'll do it for Fox.

This approach will allow us to set reaction time goals and optimize how we chaingrab spacies. Any ideas, thoughts, criticisms on this approach?

EDIT: I was totally wrong on the reaction time part. I did some research on reaction time and learned about choice reaction time (CRT) , the reaction time for responding to stimuli when at least two options are present. The more options, the slower the CRT is. The average is about 350 ms for four options. I couldn't find the world record anywhere, but I read that it would be "hard to go under 250 ms." That puts a huge damp in the chaingrab in my opinion. Still going to do the tests, but I'm less hopeful than I was at first.

If you're trying to use reaction times for theorycrafing, you should make sure to take into account that there's at least some input lag caused by the console itself.

http://smashboards.com/threads/list-of-hdtvs-with-no-or-little-lag.315068/page-4#post-19087659

 

[-ACE-]

If you're trying to use reaction times for theorycrafing, you should make sure to take into account that there's at least some input lag caused by the console itself.

http://smashboards.com/threads/list-of-hdtvs-with-no-or-little-lag.315068/page-4#post-19087659

The visual cue is present after the lag. It's accounted for. Input lag is negligible

 

[PseudoTurtle]

tm I'm loving those dash attacks to cover fox's space. Super underused move in the matchup imo.

 

[-ACE-]

Dash attack is the truth.

 

[Bwmat]

Going to the biggest tourney that's happened over here, battle of BC.

My only goal is to not buster out with sds, it's gonna be hard.

I failed, and went on tilt and rage quit my last two games in loser's gg

 

[-ACE-]

I failed, and went on tilt and rage quit my last two games in loser's gg

It happens bro, this is what I did after being bracket fvcked.

https://youtu.be/w7lf6moBm0s

 

[Bwmat]

Did ok in doubles, got 7th (in the money! All 16 dollars Canadian lol)

Only set recorded was the one we lost in loser's http://www.twitch.tv/ubcesports/v/66448826?sr=a @ 9:16 though it has me doing a sick 2v1 comeback in the second game

Also, the commentator compared me to kage @ 7:40 lol if only

 

[Bwmat]

Also in bracket pools I lost to this young kid who mains sheik, went falcon then fox, played like garbage (sds/flubs and got reaction tech chased to death), and he did a huge popoff when he won ugh

I'm 'better' than him (I lost fair and square though), but **** sheik

Should have gone all fox

I just have this HUUGE mentality problem

 

[Parks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUuEwLhYzf0 expect a surge of popularity for ssbm I guess

 

[spider_sense]

and spidersense got slaughtered on stream live

lol I didn't do too bad vs Gravy, it just took awhile for me to readjust and the adaption phase came in a little too late. -_- However, I played a really good set vs Linguini. He still won, but it was super close (he made a very clutch CP to Pokemon Game 5 tho)

 

[spider_sense]

Damn lol, never lost in pools before. SD city. Don't miss ledgedashes on game 3 last stock guys, lol.

I actually made it out and didn't know, LOL. I'm an idiot. Totally forgot about a win I had.

OMG bro, always talk to the TO before you leave. -_- Btw I left my jacket and pick in your truck.

 

[-ACE-]

The win was a Ganon ditto, lol. They always feel like friendlies to me. At least I lost and didn't "drown" lmao

Except for when I'm about to death combo tipman and he ****ing pauses to **** me up LOL. Then I know ****s serious

 

[tm]

falco CG stuff

Yo nice work, keep it up. Doing the dirty research definitely helps for the future

 

[-ACE-]

Yo nice work, keep it up. Doing the dirty research definitely helps for the future

True, but nothing beats just practicing it against good players. He'll find out soon you should start backdash +jc grabbing before 70, and that even at low% you have to dash +jc grab to get full DI away. Some things are technically possible but practically impossible at times.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

True, but nothing beats just practicing it against good players. He'll find out soon you should start backdash +jc grabbing before 70, and that even at low% you have to dash +jc grab to get full DI away. Some things are technically possible but practically impossible at times.

Even if falco DIs as far behind you as possible at 70, you can turn around grab to cover it. Backdashing just wastes frames, even though it technically is possible as well. But I get your point. If you miss the window of time to turn around grab, you have to backdash grab. I haven't tested that window yet for the 60s or 70s. But when I do, I'll figure out how hard it is.

Lower percents dash jc grab isn't needed to get full DI away. But it's the same kind of thing. If you miss the window to grab from standing/wait, you have to dash jc grab. Again, I haven't tested the window. But it's on my list of things to test as well.

 

[-ACE-]

That's just my advice after practicing this cg ever since magus created that thread. That thing is like a bible. It lays out basically everything.