Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[F. Stein]

Oh I get what you are saying. You are expecting like a shaded 'area' instead of a line to show the various DIs. To show the range of how DI can effect the given positioning and knockback of a situation.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How on earth would it have a single line for any given trajectory? Is someone supposed to ignore their control stick after being hit? Come on now.

You're misunderstanding me. The images I posted only have a single line because I did not input SDI or ASDI for the victim. Had I input SDI or ASDI, you would have seen multiple lines.

Here's an example of SDI at work:
http://ikneedata.com/calculator?ver...&1s=0&1t=0&1u=129&1v=65&1w=129&1x=65&1y=00000

You can also account for crouching, v canceling, smash charge interrupt, meteor cancels, fade-ins (after hitstun), and double jump (after hitstun).

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh I get what you are saying. You are expecting like a shaded 'area' instead of a line to show the various DIs. To show the range of how DI can effect the given positioning and knockback of a situation.

To address this point, I also could have created multiple SDI and ASDI lines to go with a fixed DI to show the various ranges DI can affect positioning and knockback. However, I did not do that as my images were more aimed at showing how positioning affects fsmash's KO potential

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, trust me, I got it. Just saying, there's no substitute for actual testing. And until someone actually tests something under real conditions, they shouldn't take any info as the ****ing gospel lol.

 

[-ACE-]

To address this point, I also could have created multiple SDI and ASDI lines to go with a fixed DI to show the various ranges DI can affect positioning and knockback. However, I did not do that as my images were more aimed at showing how positioning affects fsmash's KO potential

That only changes percents by 1-2. It's the afterward DI it ignores. Jeez LOL

 

[X WaNtEd X]

There's also no way to hold people accountable for the information they post here. People aren't really incentivized to purposefully lie (most of the time) but you have no way of knowing whether the data someone posts is 100% real or not unless you test it yourself. Although this calculator is not the actual game, you can literally see exactly what someone did to reach the conclusions they did. Look at a lot of guides here and you'll see something along the lines of "DI away" or something vague. On the calculator, you get to see numbers and exact angles for DI. My point is that nothing is the gospel except for what you test yourself. But you can use what other people test to make approximations both on here and with the calculator.

Yes, it ignores afterward DI. I never said otherwise. But you said it only accounts for regular DI. I was making the point that you can account for other types of DI. The fact you can't account for afterward DI is a problem for sure. In some cases I think that's huge. But for calculating KOs, not so much. If your ASDI, SDI, and DI are optimal for survival, there would be no benefits to input different DI. In fact, you'd probably die at a slightly lower percent if you did.

 

[-ACE-]

You exclaimed that you proved something without actually firing up melee bro. I was skeptical so I asked some questions, but turned out the "proof" was limited. I don't think dthrow to fsmash at 110+% is really viable like that site has told you.

 

[Oldiz]

What do you mean by afterward DI? You can't drift while in hitstun.

 

[-ACE-]

What do you mean by afterward DI? You can't drift while in hitstun.

Yes you can, it just doesn't have any real effect immediately.

The lines on the drawing are so long someone could even jump out. But my biggest issue is I'm pretty sure sheik can jump out before the fsmash at many of those percents. That and optimal DI being designated as a direction which isn't the best for jumping out. Jumping out seems optimal to me.

You guys should know by now that I try to provide the most honest and optimal advice possible. If something seems crazy to me and is labeled as proof, I'm going to speak up.

 

[-ACE-]

Emilio and I will be at vs tonight, maybe Tipman too. Sadly, spidey has to work on Easter.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Emilio and I will be at vs tonight, maybe Tipman too. Sadly, spidey has to work on Easter.

Dayum they chumped his ahh? Only chumps work on easter

 

[F. Stein]

Get recordings, I wanna see this go down.

 

[WoK_a^2]

Has anyone ever incorporated NIL tech chases on platforms? could extend chain grabs when they would escape to platforms otherwise. Of course there is the aerial you get off the platform tech chase but if you know your grab follow ups you should be able to still get that guaranteed aerial. Also downsmash potential and idk what else

 

[ForTheLulz]

But you can SDI down tech the first hit of Dsmash so it's not actually optimal.

 

[F. Stein]

Is Dair/regrab going to be the optimal in a techchase then? Unless they are at kill %s and then Fair/Bair? Those would at least set up for an edgeguard.

 

[-ACE-]

Has anyone ever incorporated NIL tech chases on platforms? could extend chain grabs when they would escape to platforms otherwise. Of course there is the aerial you get off the platform tech chase but if you know your grab follow ups you should be able to still get that guaranteed aerial. Also downsmash potential and idk what else

Not reeeeally, but I have used NIL to make techchasing with grab on a platform easier. NIL to instant dash +jc grab.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

those dittos def leveled me up. even though we had streaming opportunity and didnt do it, it was really funny how the four of us had completely different play styles that worked. ggs was a hella experience. blea must of had fun playing random styles of ganon with each set passing.

 

[tm]

Hey so a couple of random questions.

For edge guarding any character sweet spotting the ledge from below, what if you ran off stage and did a tipman that hit them under the stage (on like FoD, Poke, FD kinda, Dreamland, and BF) I feel like characters such as marth or peach don't have protection on the other side of them so the up air could be safe? and then they can't grab the ledge reversed so we would ahve a whole stock to get back.

Can every waveland turn into a moonwalk? I know moonwalks aren't optimal at all. But lets say you waveland forward going ot the right, if you input the moonwalk to the left from the waveland it should work right?
Not the most applicable thing, but since i like to space/approach with (autocancelled) bairs this would give quick movement and allow me to be backwards while closing space still.

Last thing is nair OoS? any applications? Comes out a frame slower than Uair but double hit box in front of you for better coverage? plus you could drift/fastfall to space the second hit further away?

1. yeah, possibly, but it's very risky bc you're offstage then. They could definitely change the timing of the upB and possibly avoid getting hit. Also you'll most definitely get hit by their move and be in a terrible position, probably death if their attack hit through uair.

2. yes

3. yeah, covers different space. more "lingering", better on shield, good against survival DI.

How on earth would it have a single line for any given trajectory? Is someone supposed to ignore their control stick after being hit? Come on now.

Holding a direction while you're in hitstun doesn't do anything.

Has anyone ever incorporated NIL tech chases on platforms? could extend chain grabs when they would escape to platforms otherwise. Of course there is the aerial you get off the platform tech chase but if you know your grab follow ups you should be able to still get that guaranteed aerial. Also downsmash potential and idk what else

Yes but it takes too long to setup to cover tech in place / missed tech [on reaction] reliably. It's good for when you think they will tech roll, but you can just waveland at that point.

 

[DCW]

Has anyone ever incorporated NIL tech chases on platforms? could extend chain grabs when they would escape to platforms otherwise. Of course there is the aerial you get off the platform tech chase but if you know your grab follow ups you should be able to still get that guaranteed aerial. Also downsmash potential and idk what else

I do this with Ganon. (Though I've been playing Marth the last few weeks, BTW.) For instance, I tested out the percent at which Sheik falls onto the lower platforms of Battlefield and Dreamland. I also tested the percent at which Sheik will fall onto the upper platform when she is downthrown on the lower ones. (You can NIL from a lower platform to the upper one by running off the side and djing.) Using this knowledge, one could continue the chaingrab all the way to 90% and kill. It seemed doable--I was doing it to my Sheik practice partner.

Like you say, the more regrabs you get the better, since a followup from the final grab is always guaranteed. NIL regrab is definitely a good idea!

 

[-ACE-]

Holding a direction while you're in hitstun doesn't do anything.

You sure it doesn't do anything just before stun ends? Sure seems like it to me. Unless stun ends before the animation ends.

Nonetheless, those lines on that diagram go wayyyyyy past stun.

 

[WoK_a^2]

Yes but it takes too long to setup to cover tech in place / missed tech [on reaction] reliably. It's good for when you think they will tech roll, but you can just waveland at that point.

Okay interesting, I guess I'll have to play around with jt and get a feel for how hard it is. I feel like your position under the platform is very relevant.

If you're under the middle ish of the platform NIL, but if you're under an end then it'd probably be more easily guaranteed followup with an aerial.

Also, with the new height from platforms, that's means earlier kill percentage right? (I'm thinking for shiek mainly) but the f smash is only guaranteed near the end of it anyways so can you still get guaranteed aerials that will earlier on the plats?

 

[Oldiz]

You sure it doesn't do anything just before stun ends? Sure seems like it to me. Unless stun ends before the animation ends.

Nonetheless, those lines on that diagram go wayyyyyy past stun.

Pretty sure there's no actual stun animation, just based on knockback and such.

 

[-ACE-]

I must be incorrectly judging when stun takes place lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Get recordings, I wanna see this go down.

Plenty of linguini vids on stream, and one of me vs hungrypigeon's peach. After losing to him I had to play shamunt's sheik because he sandbagged in winners with fox. Played bad, whiffed chaingrabs, approached at times I shouldn't have approached, got knocked out early. Never a good feeling when you lose 2nd round and then see a decent sheik waiting for you in losers lol

 

[-ACE-]

Made a little BS drawing for optimal combo DI. One of those red dots shows optimal combo DI if you KNOW you'll be hit offstage. It takes a very conscious understanding of your percent and location onstage, but yeah. This is that underused ****.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Diagonal DI is really good. It's a pity so many players insist on just DI away as combo DI.

 

[tm]

Okay interesting, I guess I'll have to play around with jt and get a feel for how hard it is. I feel like your position under the platform is very relevant.

If you're under the middle ish of the platform NIL, but if you're under an end then it'd probably be more easily guaranteed followup with an aerial.

Yup. for example if you dthrow and they DI in front of you to the edge of the platform, you can't NIL quickly, but if you are in the center of the platform and they go straight up from dthrow, then you can (but will have to move slightly backwards from doing the backwards full hop).

Also, with the new height from platforms, that's means earlier kill percentage right? (I'm thinking for shiek mainly) but the f smash is only guaranteed near the end of it anyways so can you still get guaranteed aerials that will earlier on the plats?

From stage to stage? not really. DL / BF platforms are higher than those of yoshis / poke, but aerials from plats will kill later in any case. Also if the sheik has good DI she's rarely going to straight up die from an aerial on platform (except on yoshis). If they have good DI you will almost always have to kill her from an edgeguard (unless you started one and let her back on, or hit her with poor move choices past 90/100%).

EDIT: if you mean on a given stage, like top BF plat compared to side BF plat, or FoD highest side plats vs lowest side plats, then yes and no. Higher = killing off the top sooner, but no change to killing off the side, and it actually gives them more height to recover from if they don't die off the top, which is bad.

 

[-ACE-]

you can't NIL quickly

Pivot jump brotha

 

[tm]

Ah, true. wow why didn't I think of that lmao
still, I doubt you can get tech in place

 

[-ACE-]

Ah, true. wow why didn't I think of that lmao
still, I doubt you can get tech in place

Try it, I think you'll be surprised. Some characters/situations at the lowest possible percent I think you're right, but imo you're usually money.

 

[spider_sense]

Dayum they chumped his ahh? Only chumps work on easter

Don't I owe you lunch?

 

[-ACE-]

Don't I owe you lunch?

I know I do. He'll be snacking on my Ganon forward aerial quite soon. It'll splatter his brain, leave scattered remains of matter and stains, that'll explain how he was battered and slain.

 

[Diosama]

ACE boutta do it

I'll be taking a melee break to finish school, but I'll be on the grind before GOML. @Coastward you never replied to my doubles proposal, you down?

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/naoV0TaZ6pA

My side-b tech flubs continue, along with accidental fsmashes. Bad edgeguarding too. But this peach took a game off the moon, def no slouch.

Plenty of vids by Lord CHEEZUS also, watch how better he is at edgeguarding peach. Also LOL he had a accidental side-b also.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

****in suicide side-b's dude, I can't hate them enough.

Cheezus played decently, but some obvious flubs and hasty decision making cost him both sets vs blea. I'm sure he'll get em next time.

Linguini I swear to cheezus Christ himself we will get to play one of these days... You can't avoid me forever

 

[Diosama]

You know, playing Marth a bit has improved my dash dancing a lot, and it's carried over to Ganon. I think there's potential for dashdance > side b, but it could just be the scrubs at my school that allow me to get away with it. I'd love to see it used outside of tech-chasing, where even there it's rarely used.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

It's very good vs marth, even in neutral. Used sparingly, course. Can get around spaced fair. Probably my least favorite option for tech chase because it can literally mean death vs all fast fallers besides falco if you guess wrong. Whatever works for you though.

Dash dance into side-b is sorta viable, but I like to use it the way kage told me like 4 years ago lol, just when you think you don't quiiiiite have enough space and you know they'll approach, side-b (and down-b, for that matter) pull you back just enough so they'll whiff. Great option when you're getting tech chased with grabs (Falcon) and they're not quite frame perfect on the grab.

Last thing: in my experience, dash dancing the traditional way vs marth isn't that great in neutral because of quick approaches like wavedash in --> dtilt. When he's in the air, however...

 

[Bwmat]

Here's the puff match I was talking about: https://youtu.be/GGNUHdaxjvQ

First game went better than I remembered, thanks fox (and I did take another in loser's, with fox again lol), but second game was terrible, kept burning my second jump for no reason

There's a few other videos just uploaded on that channel that I'm in, I wasn't ganon in most of the recorded singles though

 

[Diosama]

I was talking about playing as Marth myself, not vs him lol

But yes, when I say dashdance > side b, I mean the pulling back then b-reversing it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

<----- upholding the tradition of confusing people with my avatar. Thanks, @Coastward I owe you one