ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
In the ditto, will Dthrow -> fsmash reliably combo?
It looks to be guaranteed but I'm not sure.
It looks to be guaranteed but I'm not sure.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Ace landed it on me the other day... lol. Not sure if I could have jumped out or not / if it's DI dependent.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I legit had no idea who I did it to lol
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![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
probably easy to di out of. fsmash sucks.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
It means under the most ideal circumstances for Sheik, meaning best positioning and optimal DI, is the highest percent an up angled fsmash kill is guaranteed.Ohhh,X WaNtEd X I thought you meant from a cg, cause I know even at 90% fully fresh dthrow to up-angled fsmash won't kill on that stage.
What does highest up-angled percent mean? It stops reaching after that percent (whiff)?
My point with that diagram is that fsmash has a good chance of killing on that stage if you're conscious of where you're doing it from. And although it won't hit out of dthrow for all DI, you can just reactively use it when they don't DI away from it and you're in a position where it will kill.
As for fsmash on Ganon, I think it probably also works for many DI and could potentially be used as a DI mixup for quick kills on smaller stages out of dthrow. But, I don't see why you would do this when you can just put Ganon offstage and edgeguard for free out of high percent dthrow/uthrow. With Sheik it makes more sense because she has a better chance of making it back with her recovery. Better to just KO her than risk messing up the edgeguard.
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Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
It works best when your opponent is going to DI away then DI back toward you with an aerial. I don't think it's real on full DI away or a jump. I could be wrong I've never even thought of testing it. I feel it requires a read. I've killed Peach with it, and other odd combo-weight characters.
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Gotem City Vigilante
So if it starts killing at 93% (guess), it's only viable from 93-96%? Any higher and I'd be extremely surprised if she can't jump out (slight forward DI, followed by slight behind and no DI make it much easier for her to jump out). Not to mention, you'd have to actually get a grab at that specific range since you can't chaingrab anywhere near that percent. I'd be very tempted to just fair.
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morning, I was wondering if I should shffl all my aerials?
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Gotem City Vigilante
It's good practice, but not really.
There are a ton of ways you can do an aerial, and they essentially all have some practical use.
In general, auto-cancelling is better (no L-cancel needed). You can auto-cancel uair and bair by doing the aerial fp (frame-perfect) or close to fp (just aerial as soon as you leave the ground) from a shorthop and fastfalling immediately. You can auto-cancel nair too, which is easier and more practical on platforms imo. It requires different timing than uair and bair.
Practice SHFFL'ing, AC aerials, late (L-cancel required) aerials, edge-canceled aerials, analog jump aerials, and multiple aerials from 1-2 jumps. They all have uses.
An analog jump basically means you're holding forward or back as you jump, and it changes your initial trajectory (there are neutral jumps, back jumps, forward jumps). Back jumps are also a completely different jump animation with different properties. So you can forward fullhop from a stand still and fair as soon as you've held jump long enough to fullhop and immediately hold back, your fair will cover a lot of space in front of you and you'll retreat nicely as well. From there, after the fair ends, you can dj aerial, dj to platform, dj waveland, falling uair, or fall and waveland on the ground. You fake aggression and then fade back this way, with plenty of options afterward.
Fullhop dair is a great bait because of these options. You can fullhop bair to falling uair/bair, you can sh uair or bair into dj plat wL or dj aerial, lots of possibilities. Aerial baits are really good.
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
there are some matchups where, for the most part, i let my aerials float for as long as possible in just about every situation. then there are some where i try to be as quick as possible. ultimately it boils down to specific situations. there's no yellow or red brick road that one should follow. you react to what situations you're given to. if a peach is going to do spotdodge dsmash you wanna put out an aerial that will sit out there and eat the spotdodge up rather than putting out a quick aerial that wouldn't cover many options. but vs someone like fox or falco where you have to be quick on your feet often, you won't want to put yourself out there for too long or else you'll probably eat a bunch of hits.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
BTW, I did some thinking the past few days (rare, I know). And I realized why you guys all thought I was crazy when I said it's possible to beat Samus's charge shot with bair. The only thing I knew for sure is that I had done it before. But then it clicked to me. When a hitbox delivers 9% or more, there is no clank or cancellation. Bair is 16% and charge shot is 25%. I had been hit by a charge shot previously, so the charge shot was slightly staled. That's why I was able to cancel it with a fresh bair, and that's why fair cancels it out basically every time.
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Gotem City Vigilante
Aside from not being like me (beer) and being generally healthy, it's all in getting friendlies and being warmed up imo. Fox mains can afford to lose some technical skill temporarily and still be a big threat, but we can't. Get friendlies before the tourney set.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
As I said, the percent it starts killing at is dependent on DI and positioning. This diagram in particular illustrates that. You could kill as low as 74% if they DI away and you're facing offstage close to the ledge. Around there and the 80s you can get regrabs (albeit not easily).
Most of the time, yes, fair/bair will be better on DL. But it's not like you're making a read here. You can reactively make the decision to use this when you know it will kill.
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Gotem City Vigilante
No one DI's like that diagram shows, it doesn't account for directional DI. Seems like a shortcut to actual testing. I asked questions because I was confused a bit and also don't 100% trust the data.
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Gotem City Vigilante
I don't even know what to call all the DI's, but there's
SDI- moves you a little less than a half inch or so on the screen
ASDI- JUST LIKE SDI accept it moves you about 1/3 to 1/2 as much
Regular DI- often confused with ASDI, this, combined with the move's (the move that hits you) trajectory determines knockback trajectory.
Directional DI- influences trajectory and velocity (somewhat) of knockback after hitlag and after trajectory of knockback is determined.
SDI- moves you a little less than a half inch or so on the screen
ASDI- JUST LIKE SDI accept it moves you about 1/3 to 1/2 as much
Regular DI- often confused with ASDI, this, combined with the move's (the move that hits you) trajectory determines knockback trajectory.
Directional DI- influences trajectory and velocity (somewhat) of knockback after hitlag and after trajectory of knockback is determined.
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Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Ace, I haven't been around terribly long, but I've done a fair amount of research into the mechanics of this game, and this is the first I have ever seen of Directional DI.
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Gotem City Vigilante
It's basically the same as jumping straight up and holding back. Just directing yourself. When you get thrown, and you hold away (or down and away), hold down afterwards to tech earlier. If you get usmash'd and miss the DI (and go straight up), hold away asap for at least a little help at survival. Stuff like that.
Like I said, I don't know all the terminology, but some old and glorified posts are actually wrong. There are 4 types, of this I'm certain.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I could also run the numbers with ASDI and SDI (they're built into the program as well). But not everyone is going to SDI and unexpected option like fsmash out of dthrow.
If you don't trust the data you can literally play around with it yourself from the link provided. If you don't trust the site itself, than that's a whole other issue I guess. So far, I haven't seen anything to suggest the data produced by that site is untrustworthy. From testing percents that I know guarantee kills in the game, it's pretty spot on. In some ways, I think it's a more trustworthy source because it's really easy to see what people did.
I agree that not many people DI like that. But many people will try to do horizontal DI if they expect fsmash. Horizontal DI is very close to what that angle is.
If you don't trust the data you can literally play around with it yourself from the link provided. If you don't trust the site itself, than that's a whole other issue I guess. So far, I haven't seen anything to suggest the data produced by that site is untrustworthy. From testing percents that I know guarantee kills in the game, it's pretty spot on. In some ways, I think it's a more trustworthy source because it's really easy to see what people did.
I agree that not many people DI like that. But many people will try to do horizontal DI if they expect fsmash. Horizontal DI is very close to what that angle is.
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Gotem City Vigilante
It only accounts for regular DI (1 out of 4 DI's) and I don't think the up-angled fsmash is really given at all those percents (jumping out, especially given the difference in ports). No top players really know anything about Ganon so it seems crazy that a random guy will have it all right in some all inclusive guide. Especially when hardly anyone truly understands DI.
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Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Huh. I've never heard that called DI. From what I've seen (I think) that's usually called air control (or somethinng on those lines).
Actually, if I recall, Air control was a later name for it. Back when things were just starting in Melee and we were learning about "DI" we called pretty much any input on the control stick DI. That's just how things were explained back then. For example someone would say, "long hop Falcon's Nair and then DI back." Pretty incorrect in how we talk about things now but it was the norm in dinosaur times.
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Gotem City Vigilante
Well maybe with the empty hop, but when you miss the regular DI on a fox usmash but begin to hold away immediately, I see that as a form of DI (while you're still in knockback/stun).
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Gotem City Vigilante
BTW guys, here's a great deal on ebay.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Official-...cube-WiiU-Controller-/401092970091?nav=SEARCH
Same controller used by the technical legends Tipman, spider_sense, and pseudoturtle. $12.99 + $5 shipping.
$5 cheaper than amazon. A great backup even if you love your current stickz.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Official-...cube-WiiU-Controller-/401092970091?nav=SEARCH
Same controller used by the technical legends Tipman, spider_sense, and pseudoturtle. $12.99 + $5 shipping.
$5 cheaper than amazon. A great backup even if you love your current stickz.
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Gotem City Vigilante
Not really. They're essentially the same. But I honestly feel the sticks on the black ones are slightly less clunky, after testing around 5 of each (both sm4sh). I own 2 whites.
Not to mention, it's the absolute best deal on all of the internet.
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Gotem City Vigilante
didn't watch but I was watching his stream a couple days ago Said he'll be playing smash again and is going to evo. Truly I can't wait because hes one of my fav's
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Gotem City Vigilante
He's easily one of my favorites too. I think he could learn A LOT about Ganon though, simply by posting here more. Obviously we can learn from him too, but as it is, he's kinda forced to come up with his own stuff, whereas the people here constantly get several opinions.
Diosama
Stand User
Watching Super Nebulous and Captain Smuckers did a slick dtilt tech trap after an upthrow against mdz's falco. Think Ganon has potential for this too at some %? Smells like an ez dair > fair
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Gotem City Vigilante
Damn bro. I feel the pain. Vids?
Vs puff you just have to have crazy patience. Keep extra space, more than you think you should. Force puff to make more neutral game decisions than she's used to making. She's great at writing short stories well. Make her write a novel and be a grammar Nazi.
There may be some vids later of the winners loss, we'll see, loser's was off stream.
Got third in dubs even though my teammate ditched me and I teamed with this samus who hasn't played much in years though. Ganon on Yoshi's in doubles = it's over
Got third in dubs even though my teammate ditched me and I teamed with this samus who hasn't played much in years though. Ganon on Yoshi's in doubles = it's over
Met Eikelmann today at the regional, first real Ganon main I've met.
Was really awesome, didn't expect him to be as nice as he was. He played my scrub Ganon and I learned some awesome stuff. Helped him warm up his Falco for his run in Singles top 8. Was a lot of fun and I've got something to aspire to after being bicycled off FoD at 0% with 4 Uairs. I didn't know that was possible or what it felt like until today lol. On the bright side I did take like one or two stocks when we played on FD.
First big event that I've gone to, definitely going to get better and go to more.
Was really awesome, didn't expect him to be as nice as he was. He played my scrub Ganon and I learned some awesome stuff. Helped him warm up his Falco for his run in Singles top 8. Was a lot of fun and I've got something to aspire to after being bicycled off FoD at 0% with 4 Uairs. I didn't know that was possible or what it felt like until today lol. On the bright side I did take like one or two stocks when we played on FD.
First big event that I've gone to, definitely going to get better and go to more.
Coastward
Smash Lord
tfw ian chews me out for picking up fox and goes and picks up falco
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Gotem City Vigilante
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
No that calculator actually does account for SDI and ASDI. But I did not use either in the stuff I posted here.
What do you mean by "it's not given at all those percents"?
And someone could definitely have made this for all characters without knowing everything much about Ganon. As long as you know how Melee's system works (DI), the trajectory of a move (the angle it hits at), the knockback, the percent of the victim, and their DI, you can figure out quite a bit. And that's what this calculator can allegedly do. And I'm not even talking about staleness, the various hitboxes, etc.
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Gotem City Vigilante
How on earth would it have a single line for any given trajectory? Is someone supposed to ignore their control stick after being hit? Come on now.