gmBottles
Fun Haver
I wanna say Kage would be the best to watch. Like Ace said, definitely not Bizz lmfao. He's said he's gonna start playing more efficiently though and style less didn't he?
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
gmBottles
Fun Haver
Actually I remember him making a tweet about it. And if I've learned anything about modern Smash, it's that what happens on Twitter is some real ****
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Never been to Twitter.com in my life but that's true lol
gmBottles
Fun Haver
I don't go on there much but I just happened to see it one day. It's super hype, I'm so ready to see Bizzaro doing optimal **** instead of dumb stylish ****.
.... well I still wanna see him style, just not all the time
.... well I still wanna see him style, just not all the time
Anyway, if you want to see really good Melee play from a Ganon player, watch Kage. If you want to see really good Ganon play from a Melee player, watch n0ne. Both have good tournament results with Ganon and are worth studying, just for different things.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I agree, Kage is good to study for learning fundamentals with Ganon, n0ne is good to study to learn how to be fast with Ganon, and Linguini is good to study to learn how to make the optimal decisions and utilize Ganon's tools as efficiently as possible.
I still think overall you can learn a lot more from just watching Linguini vids, but those three Ganons definitely have their fair share of Ganon teachings in their play.
I still think overall you can learn a lot more from just watching Linguini vids, but those three Ganons definitely have their fair share of Ganon teachings in their play.
Diosama
Stand User
So not really feeling Ganon lately. Been trying to find a new main to play, but nothing yet. If I can't, I guess I have no choice. Otherwise, I'll keep him as a secondary. Still gonna browse this thread and keep up with stuff, just won't be playing him as often.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Yeah there really is no Armada of Ganon. All the good Ganons all have very specialized playstyles that make them good. Kage is a fundamental god and is insane at making reads.
Linguini is similar to Kage, but has more tech and moves faster. As Locke pointed out, he's really good at decision-making. Unfortunately, he's a little rusty right now.
Bizz has really cool mixups involving movement and the lack of (dj wl in place ftilt/jab for example). But as everyone knows, he ****s around a lot.
Eikelmann is extremely defensive and is pushing meta with his optimal play, especially in the Falcon matchup. People don't give him enough credit for how fast he is. It's pretty crazy. The thing is, his movement is really restrictive, so it's not as noticeable as others. Sometimes, it's really good. But there are other times where his style definitely holds him back.
n0ne has the fastest movement and most tech of any Ganon, no contest. But he doesn't really do the optimal punishes or edgeguards. More than any of these guys, view him with a grain of salt. Still, you can learn a lot from him.
Spidersense, imo is the closest thing among them all to a jack-of-all-trades. He has insane technical ability and good fundamentals. He just doesn't optimize as much as Eikelmann or Kage do. I think he has a somewhat similar style to Linguini, except he's faster.
But yeah, no one really has combined everything...yet. So study em all. Look at what works and what doesn't. You'll get a much bigger list for the latter.
Also no one talks about this enough, but older Ganon, or any footage really can be bad for your gameplay if you're not careful. The most clear example I can think of to illustrate my point is how much faster and consistent safe spacie shield pressure is these days. Go watch Linguini vs. Shiz in 2012 and look at the insane amount of shield grabs he gets. That's not going to happen as much anymore. It's also a lot more common for spacies to be able to shorten, so edgeguards aren't as free anymore. You'll also notice in many older Ganon videos that people will actually approach Ganon. So much for that lol.
If you don't account for the change of meta when you're watching videos, you might start to get some bad ideas that could affect your gameplay. I learned this the hard way lol.
Linguini is similar to Kage, but has more tech and moves faster. As Locke pointed out, he's really good at decision-making. Unfortunately, he's a little rusty right now.
Bizz has really cool mixups involving movement and the lack of (dj wl in place ftilt/jab for example). But as everyone knows, he ****s around a lot.
Eikelmann is extremely defensive and is pushing meta with his optimal play, especially in the Falcon matchup. People don't give him enough credit for how fast he is. It's pretty crazy. The thing is, his movement is really restrictive, so it's not as noticeable as others. Sometimes, it's really good. But there are other times where his style definitely holds him back.
n0ne has the fastest movement and most tech of any Ganon, no contest. But he doesn't really do the optimal punishes or edgeguards. More than any of these guys, view him with a grain of salt. Still, you can learn a lot from him.
Spidersense, imo is the closest thing among them all to a jack-of-all-trades. He has insane technical ability and good fundamentals. He just doesn't optimize as much as Eikelmann or Kage do. I think he has a somewhat similar style to Linguini, except he's faster.
But yeah, no one really has combined everything...yet. So study em all. Look at what works and what doesn't. You'll get a much bigger list for the latter.
Also no one talks about this enough, but older Ganon, or any footage really can be bad for your gameplay if you're not careful. The most clear example I can think of to illustrate my point is how much faster and consistent safe spacie shield pressure is these days. Go watch Linguini vs. Shiz in 2012 and look at the insane amount of shield grabs he gets. That's not going to happen as much anymore. It's also a lot more common for spacies to be able to shorten, so edgeguards aren't as free anymore. You'll also notice in many older Ganon videos that people will actually approach Ganon. So much for that lol.
If you don't account for the change of meta when you're watching videos, you might start to get some bad ideas that could affect your gameplay. I learned this the hard way lol.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'd like to see the look on his face if he had a tech off with pseudoturtle and saw Joe do the pseudo dash 9/10 times. I'd be like, "you're lookin like you just landed in Gotem City bro, you might want to look for your bag"
Lol. But really, if you say "No contest" I think you're sleeping on tipman joe and jason.
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Question: can Falco sweetspot his side-B recovery to avoid Ganon's down-angled ftilt? I recorded some matches of me versus a Falco and I see my ftilt sometimes covering the side-B and sometimes not. Maybe I'm just missing the timing/spacing sometimes? If so, what is that timing & spacing?
Edit: another question: when, if ever, is dtilt better than down-angled ftilt for covering ledge stuff? And if I have time to set it up, is it best to Tipman spike rather than ftilt or dtilt?
Edit: another question: when, if ever, is dtilt better than down-angled ftilt for covering ledge stuff? And if I have time to set it up, is it best to Tipman spike rather than ftilt or dtilt?
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Nah it won't hit a good sweetspot.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Tipman has the best pivots, but that's about it. Not that his movement isn't good, I just don't see much particularly unique in it.
The one thing Joe has over everyone is the pseudodash.
Jason also has really good movement, which I implied with my comment about his technical ability.
Saying "no contest" was an exaggeration, but I still think n0ne is the fastest. It's his consistency that makes him so impressive. The way he fast falls everything and moves around with perfect wavedashes is insane.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lol, I'll just stay out of this one.
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Yes. Tipman will actually hit those sweet spots. And you can do it invincibly from the ledge.
WD/WL offstage DJ uair is a great way to space it. I think LH uair, LH uair regrab, RLD uair, RLD dj uair (basically the same as what I just described) and Eikeldrop should be used interchangeably to cover different angles.
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PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Sorry, no. Spidey's got him in speed and even a lot of technical ability. I will say, however, that n0ne is currently the best at shield dropping, but I know Jason almost has it perfected, tm has used it for years now, and I'm working on it.
His pivots are godlike, to say the least. He also may not "display" the craziest movement, but that's more of a playstyle thing than anything else. He can do whatever any other ganon can.
If you're going by that, that's actually the only thing any ganon "has" over anyone. Spidey, n0ne, and tm can shield drop, everyone can RLD, Tipman and I can pivot. It doesn't mean anything to "have" something over everyone.
Trying not to sound too arrogant here - but I can do everything that any other ganon can do in terms of movement. I can moonwalk flawlessly, waveland on command, side-b cancel (super easy, actually), and I am the best ganon at the ledge. There I said it.
n0ne certainly has speed over me, and overall smoothness in combat because my decision making and confidence is not at that level (aka, I'll get stuck in shield, crouch when unnecessary, not fast fall because I changed my mind last minute, etc).
I agree, n0ne can move like a boss, especially with the consistency factored in, but saying that he's way out of our league is just not true. Jason is 100% at the same level AT LEAST and Tipman and I are no more than a level below, if that.
Watch what he does with his movement. Look how he gets his grabs. If you want to emulate n0ne, his movement is certainly a starting point, but his decision making is what gets him where he is. I know he's "flashy," but he's actually a pretty smart player.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Spider sense has slowed down and gotten smarter over the years. I've just seen all Ganons movement options too many times. The Cape was doing smash turns to perfect wd (doing a lot of them, and consistently) with Ganon in 2005. Not saying n0ne isn't fast, and I'm impressed with his consistency, but it just doesn't "wow" me like it does some others I guess.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I will say that if there is any Ganon who was just stupid good (and is still stupid good) with cover ledge options against space animals, it's Linguini. That man had an upair coming at you six ways from Sunday and you were as dead as a door nail in the middle of an abandoned hotel in Gotem City. Seriously, he would do the upair a little early to get that low hit to cover sweet spot attempts and it was super effective. I'm still impressed by his edgeguarding ability to date.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lmfao locke. Agreed tho
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Also, the other day Jason and I had phantom hits 5 games in a row during edgeguard situations with reverse uair. That spacing lol
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Wow, there was a lot more feedback on that then I thought there would be. After scanning through some videos I think that most of my research is going to be on Tipman and Kage though. I like the idea of optimizing edge guards and options and I like how much raw ability that Kage seems to have in his matches. I'll see where that takes me. It should be more than enough for the next three months, then I can move on to linguini and so on. I just wanna get ready for the midwest event in omaha that's coming up in the summer. See how far I can get.
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I feel like Bizz has a lot potential as a Ganon player if he were to solidify his fundamentals, no one considers him a tournament threat, we all just appreciate him for his style. When he played Kage in the salty suite he got 30'd (3-0). I would love to see him just actually try to win and see how far that takes him.
gmBottles
Fun Haver
We talked about that shortly the other day. He tweeted not that long ago that he would start focusing on winning more and less on styling. I'm very excited.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Kage 5-0'd bizz
Eikelmann beat bizz in a MM immediately after salty suite
Bizz lost to loki
I went even with him in 10 friendlies at MLG.
He's a great player, no doubt. He only lacks some matchup experience, and he needs to gear his game more toward efficiency. Dittos aren't his strong point.
Eikelmann beat bizz in a MM immediately after salty suite
Bizz lost to loki
I went even with him in 10 friendlies at MLG.
He's a great player, no doubt. He only lacks some matchup experience, and he needs to gear his game more toward efficiency. Dittos aren't his strong point.
gmBottles
Fun Haver
Ian was drunk as **** and, as far as I know, was extremely nervous in front of all those people.
But like Ace said, he did beat Bizz immediately after in a MM
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
It was just nerves. I hate johning for anyone but he clearly played like absolute dookie LOL
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Well honestly I know Ian fairly well and I wouldn't put saying that past him at any point LOL. But he's a drinker. Unless he was absolutely ****faced his movement and decision making shouldn't crumble. Plus he said himself the biggest issue was the crowd.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Miami Ganons-
I'm debating going to a Vs at some point this semester, but it's on the opposite side of the state and I'm not really good enough to merit a trip unless I'm going to be getting some quality ditto/training time. Anybody want to help with that?
I'm debating going to a Vs at some point this semester, but it's on the opposite side of the state and I'm not really good enough to merit a trip unless I'm going to be getting some quality ditto/training time. Anybody want to help with that?
spider_sense
Smash Champion
How you feel when your G-main boys rep you...
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spider_sense
Smash Champion
Well "Moon" will be in town on Feb 7th, so that'll probably be the best time to go. imo I might make it out, depends how my funds look that night.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
You say that so matter-a-factly. I was definitely wrong to say it was no contest. That came out poorly. But I stand by what I said about n0ne being faster. Just look at these videos:
n0ne vs. Kage
Spider Sense vs. Saucy Tho
It's pretty clear that n0ne gets around the stage quicker. He also makes better use of the platforms, utilizing ledge cancels and shield drops. Perhaps it's because Spidey has slowed down his style, as -ACE- said. Still, I think the heavy grounded type movement n0ne utilizes with perfect wavedashes is better because you can ASDI down while you're doing it. Not to mention, it goes faster than dash.
Is Spider Sense the better player? Yes. Is he more technical? Yes. But technical ability isn't necessarily the same thing as movement. Movement is part of tech, but it's not the whole picture. That's why I specifically pointed to tech skill overall when I wrote my analysis of Spider Sense.
As for shield droppers, I see Spider Sense use em quite a bit in his footage. Maybe he hasn't perfected it, but he clearly utilizes it.
He doesn't utilize his movement to the fullest potential then. Hey, I've got just as much love for Tipman as the next Ganon main. But if you say someone has "good movement," you imply they actually use it in sets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuGPHzBOwY
This set is a pretty good gauge of his movement. He does a lot of subtle things, like smash turn moonwalk off platform into uair, which indicates he's extremely technical. But his playstyle, as you say, doesn't really work for crazy movement. In my eyes, it looks like he just doesn't like using that kind of movement.
Why doesn't it mean anything? You get more options with more movement options mastered.
I wouldn't doubt that. There isn't enough footage of you around on YouTube unfortunately, so I don't have much to say. But I can say there is one thing I don't think you do, or at least I don't see it in the videos I've watched: Shai drops into waveland or dj waveland off platform. And you said it yourself, you don't shield drop. I would say those two things are a lot more important than being able to moonwalk or side-b cancel, especially the latter. Random Ganons I play on netplay or in tournament do that ****.
I'm not trying to copy n0ne in particular. I emulate parts of his movement, mostly his ground movement and the way he grabs ledge. I also emulate spider sense, linguini, and eikelmann too to a certain extent. But at the end of the day, I have a different vision for how I want my Ganon to move. It's not about the flash. I just happen to think that style of movement has the most potential with Ganon, and I aim to push it as much as possible.
But what you say about how he gets grabs is very true. I copied his ledgehop run off dj bair/dj wl smash turn grab mixup, and it's done me wonders so far, for example. Another good mixup I'm working on is shield drop aerial/wl grab. I see spidey do this one, except without the shield drop.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Next time I want to know something about someone in my own region, I know who to ask, lol.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Since Bizz made that tweet about him wanting to play more seriously he messaged me a bunch on FB about advice and he watched all of my recent Ganon analysis videos, including the ones I did of him, Kage, Pseudoturtle, and Coastward LOL. He asked how to beat Blea and other things too. It's kind of nice to have a Ganon main not keen to the boards and busy doing other things look to someone like me just cause I make some videos here and there talking about their play. I think Bizz will definitely get better this year, as he really seems like he wants to put in the effort and do the optimal thing. It's still a pain to try to watch his stream cause it comes on late for me and 90% of the time I peek in there is like "meme-city" that I only tolerate cause Bizz respects me for helping him out.
Also there definitely needs to be some Ganons thinking of going to Pound soon. I think it'd be pretty entertaining if just a bunch of Ganons showed up to that tournament and gave people awake up call hahaha.
Also I haven't seen much footage from any Ganon on this board (except maybe
-ACE-
's random TC recordings of him vs Clay/Jason on his phone ROFL) in quite some time. I feel like there has been a decline in currently active Ganon mains being on streams, including myself. Yeah I know Kage has that weekly but that gets boring as sheik (actually meant to say ****t but this works too) to watch when he practically lives in Gotem City. Montreal my ass.
CMON! SHOW ME THE GANON FOOTAGE!
Also there definitely needs to be some Ganons thinking of going to Pound soon. I think it'd be pretty entertaining if just a bunch of Ganons showed up to that tournament and gave people awake up call hahaha.
Also I haven't seen much footage from any Ganon on this board (except maybe
-ACE-
's random TC recordings of him vs Clay/Jason on his phone ROFL) in quite some time. I feel like there has been a decline in currently active Ganon mains being on streams, including myself. Yeah I know Kage has that weekly but that gets boring as sheik (actually meant to say ****t but this works too) to watch when he practically lives in Gotem City. Montreal my ass. CMON! SHOW ME THE GANON FOOTAGE!
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'll record soon.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I have life johns. But you ask at a good time because my new schedule for this semester will allow me to go to more tournaments. Even better, I put together a tripod with a selfie stick, so I can record any set I play if I don't have someone there to hold my phone or I'm not on stream. I'm going to a tournament tomorrow, so I'll be getting footage. My goal from now on is to record every set I play and analyze everything.