• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

DCW

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Georgia
I'm not a top Ganon, but I definitely would appreciate constructive criticism from you all. Here's a set I just recorded of me vs a friend who plays Falco. Sorry for the terrible video quality, but I'm working with all I have, a laptop webcam. Any advice you have on my play would be appreciated. I struggle with the Falco matchup, and definitely want to improve. General and/or in-depth critique appreciated.

Also, I love your "Gotem City Vigilante" status, ACE. I laughed out loud when I first saw it. To continue the puns, I will assume the people of Gotem call you The Baitman.
 
Last edited:

Swagic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
406
Location
Indianapolis or South Florida
I would record sets if I had actual people to play against... There are only two or three other serious players around here, and only one is at my level (although another one is a sheik... **** her). So if anybody wants to watch me work on cgs and ledge options, I guess I could record that (/sarcasm)
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Double jump Waveland? Dude that was like the first thing I mastered lol. And I never said I can't shield drop, just that I don't have it as consistently as n0ne, spidey, or tm. I don't have footage from the last like three months.

Locke good ****. I'll be playing more soon, but I've been in a slump since a fantastic performance at kings of the north. Been a little timid of the stream. Lost to three players I never lost a game to before and I'm taking a short break.

There'll be more turtle in the coming months
 

F. Stein

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
237
Location
Wyoming
I'll be putting up some noob footage soon. My area decided that we wanted to start training and kickstart our tournament scene so a bunch of us can go to evo. I'll be needing assistance to be a mad scientist of note. Anyone here going to Evo?
 

Linguini

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
4,698
Location
Weston, Florida
N0ne's ganon looks pretty good, but nothing special imo. Playing against samus us one thing,but i'm pretty sure a good spacie would have his way with him when there's not as much space to move around.

Spidersense def. has the nicest movement...overall. Much more flashy than bizz seems to be, although I respect the latters shamelessness.

I'm pretty sure Porkchops has the best shield pressure with falco and I seem to still get quite a few grabs lol. Fox is a bit harder but I still shieldgrab good spacies a lot. It's risky but ganon's shield is actually really good for ASDI so it's essential to learn seeing as how large of a punish you can procure from a single grab

Blea finally uploaded these good sets from a few months back:

Me Vs Porkchops LF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpbiuLjbzAs

Me Vs Blea GF (2 sets) GF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx8W5d8h1cQ

Moon is apparently coming down in 2 weeks for a weekly so I might just attend and tap.
 
Last edited:

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
I'm pretty sure Porkchops has the best shield pressure with falco and I seem to still get quite a few grabs lol. Fox is a bit harder but I still shieldgrab good spacies a lot. It's risky but ganon's shield is actually really good for ASDI so it's essential to learn seeing as how large of a punish you can procure from a single grab
ASDI shield grab is ridiculously OP. I started using it about a month ago and that **** works. I find ASDI works well with falco, but you need to SDI fox's dair unless the dair hits with every hitbox (like from the ledge).

Fox's shine hitbox is weird, too. If the fox doesn't shine after I SDI the dair in shield, I whiff the grab. If they do, grab connects. Is this just a weird coincidental thing for me or does fox's shine actually have a hurtbox? Anyone know? -ACE- -ACE- ?
 

spider_sense

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
2,295
Location
Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
I think "movement" also comes with positioning; I've wrestled with slowing my tech and using my head with matchups. Sure, I could go back to doing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-zmCsi0Kk but is it really going to be advantageous to me in the long run? Probably not. I'd rather give out the necessary precaution and sticky walk just so it gives me the proper position to go on the assault or make myself relatively safe if I'm not entirely sure he's going to commit to an action. None's Ganon is definitely fast, but look at all the advantages he gave away vs Kage. He had so many opportunities to mitigate Kage's approaches but was so preoccupied with wavelanding and moving at SSJG speed that he just simply got hit. Having impressive tech skill like that may intimidate mediocre players, but it just falls out when the competition gets tougher. Playing this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6fhGA5z1NY should prove that I've come a very long way and it's only getting started. lol
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
**** fox's shine lol. I don't know about his hurtbox, I just know you can't grab a double shine. ASDI works vs drill but if they are kinda crossing you up you gotta SDI. I hold c-stick away and give the control stick a double tap for 2 SDI inputs back.

Yo imma show the moon how a side-b death combo feels.

Not to mention the marth killer lmao (kage should've already shown him but.... lol)

Also I think you guys are forgetting the tech skill champ of 2015.

:evilking:
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
D DCW 3 matches in 7 minutes, now that's melee lol. I saw some really good stuff at times. Remember, if you want to cg, you have to dash jc grab DI away, and you only want to turnaround grab for DI behind when he's under 65%. But you were definitely going for some difficult regrabs lol (5:02 unnecessary dash, just turnaround grab). At that percent you can also turnaround jab, which is easier, and since it wouldn't knock down, you can regrab him during landing lag if he didn't DI away. At 4:10 I love double stomps but a nair or uair would've forced a tech on a platform, which can mean a KO setup. Try to get to the ledge faster when you hit Falco offstage and try to be facing backwards, obviously fair at the ledge rarely hits, and it leaves you more open than whiffing a uair or bair since you have to turn to retreat. In many matchups, whiffed tipman at ledge to dash retreating bair catches their ledgehop punish attempt (that bair). If you whiff the fair you're getting hit usually. Your DI was really on point at times but like your tech (and mine), it's inconsistent. Try to react a little bit sooner when you get hit in situations where you could've immediately techroll'd away, I saw you miss some important techs on stage.

It for now.
 
Last edited:

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
What if I said his movement seems to have the most potential, but isn't necessarily utilized in the most efficient way? I definitely can see that in the spacie's matchups in particular. I guess my definition of "best" is flawed.

D DCW Aside from what ace said, I see a good amount of holes in your neutral game. You're too fast to shield, even after you cc a laser. When you have the space and falco has committed to a sh aerial approach following a laser or you're close by him straight after a laser, cc jab is the way to go. If you shield preemptively, you're playing into his hands.

I see you have shield drops down pretty well, something apparently only a few Ganons can do kappa. But you have the same problem I used to have and still do to some extent: you're predictable with em. You almost always went for shield drop uair. That's one of the best things you can do out of shield drop, but it's not always safe. Try mixing up what you do oos on platforms. Rising sh dair can be good. Wd off works too sometimes. And shield drop wl can give you some good spacial advantages.

You have a bad habit of side-bing too much. You probably know. Sometimes it was pretty good, like when you do it in the opposite direction after a jab.

For DI, try to DI behind falco off shines more. It's harder for him to followup.

Finally, try to find more uses for dash attack. It's really good vs. falco, and the one or two times you did it it worked. In fact, I'd say try to replace your desperate side-bs with dash attacks when falco is close by just as a way of experimenting with what situations it works in.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
Damn L Linguini I keep forgetting just how composed you are when you play in tournament even after being so rusty. You don't even let an SD phase you at all (or at least your face doesn't show it). Not a lot of people have that level of mental fortitude. Props to you man.
 

Duel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
167
Can you guys help me on my Peach MU? This is losers Semis from my weekly last week, and I lost by a hit or 2 game 3, hoping to make some adjustments for today. Match starts right at the beginning of the video. http://www.twitch.tv/cmusmash/v/36877607. Looking back and watching it now I'm realizing i need to stay more grounded and preserve my Dj, also I need to find opportunities to tomahawk. Game 1 on FoD was awful, and I was throwing out too many down B's in neutral. Peach is one of my worst MU's.
 
Last edited:

Masteroki

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
74
How do you deal with cross ups? I try to bair/uair OoS but it usually gets blocked/stuffed by a shine. So now, I just roll away to attempt to space myself but I know that's not the best option.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
How do you deal with cross ups? I try to bair/uair OoS but it usually gets blocked/stuffed by a shine. So now, I just roll away to attempt to space myself but I know that's not the best option.
There's always this...

For instance, when you get crossed up, you should either......

1. Roll forward
2. WD OoS forward
3. Bair OoS (fading away)
4. Spot dodge OoS
5. Reverse up-b OoS
6. Roll backwards (mix-up, and sometimes good for keeping center stage)
7. Fullhop dair OoS (don't pass these opportunities up)
8. Jump OoS to platform (wL, NIL instant drop, shield to bait shield drop uair)

.......based on the specifics of the situation.

You don't want to bair OoS when he's able to utilt before you can get the bair out. You have to recognize whether an option is safe and/or effective near immediately and react asap. You don't want to up-b OoS when he's at super low%. You don't want to roll right next to the ledge, etc etc etc.
You can shield DI to make options safer. Good neutral game forces falco's approaches to be imperfect. Add shield DI, and you usually have a decent option. Think about where falco hits your shield. If he hits you near the top of the shield try a fast fullhop dair OoS. You can hit his head, fastfall and grab him usually. The lower/later on your shield he hits, the less options you have. You definitely have to shield the shine in these cases and then grab or buffer roll/occasional spot dodge.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
The timing to grab Falco FP after the shine ends is hard af, but if you Shield ASDI (sometimes SSDI is necessary dependent on spacing), you can grab Falco's double shine
 
Last edited:

Masteroki

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
74
Thanks, a friend of mine told me that Ganon's ftilt pointed diagonally upright serves as an anti-air similar to a Street Fighter shoryuken or crouching fierce with shotos. I haven't seen much Ganon mains use this as I think it could stuff aerials approaches.
 

Diosama

Stand User
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
309
Location
Montreal, QC
Since Bizz made that tweet about him wanting to play more seriously he messaged me a bunch on FB about advice and he watched all of my recent Ganon analysis videos, including the ones I did of him, Kage, Pseudoturtle, and Coastward LOL. He asked how to beat Blea and other things too. It's kind of nice to have a Ganon main not keen to the boards and busy doing other things look to someone like me just cause I make some videos here and there talking about their play. I think Bizz will definitely get better this year, as he really seems like he wants to put in the effort and do the optimal thing. It's still a pain to try to watch his stream cause it comes on late for me and 90% of the time I peek in there is like "meme-city" that I only tolerate cause Bizz respects me for helping him out.

Also there definitely needs to be some Ganons thinking of going to Pound soon. I think it'd be pretty entertaining if just a bunch of Ganons showed up to that tournament and gave people awake up call hahaha.

Also I haven't seen much footage from any Ganon on this board (except maybe -ACE- -ACE- 's random TC recordings of him vs Clay/Jason on his phone ROFL) in quite some time. I feel like there has been a decline in currently active Ganon mains being on streams, including myself. Yeah I know Kage has that weekly but that gets boring as sheik (actually meant to say ****t but this works too) to watch when he practically lives in Gotem City. Montreal my ***.

CMON! SHOW ME THE GANON FOOTAGE!
I got a really bad set against a Luigi player from like 3 weeks ago if you wanna take a look at that. I'm actually ashamed watching it over again because, even though I won, my mistakes were near beginner level. But I guess I can set aside some pride.

Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRP-D9uT2ZI
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
I got a really bad set against a Luigi player from like 3 weeks ago if you wanna take a look at that. I'm actually ashamed watching it over again because, even though I won, my mistakes were near beginner level. But I guess I can set aside some pride.

Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRP-D9uT2ZI
Yeah I can see that it's pretty bad overall. It looked like you really didn't understand the purpose of most - if not all - of your moves. You had a lot of max-distance side-b and down-b attempts in neutral that were never going to hit him. You shielded pretty much every time you landed on the ground and especially after whiffing and aerial. You shielded a lot cause it looked like you were afraid of getting hit. It looked like you especially didn't know how to edgeguard Luigi. Most of the time when you put out a move, it's in hopes that your opponent runs into it. I feel like this was 90% of your gameplan vs Luigi. Your movement is also really lacking. I don't recall any wavedashes to position yourself and the excessive wavelanding on the platforms and messing it up on the ground proved to get you hit more times than it helped you get away, so you should definitely be practicing that stuff more. There's a lot more I could honestly say but even from what I've said so far there's a lot that you could work on.
 

Masteroki

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
74
I got a really bad set against a Luigi player from like 3 weeks ago if you wanna take a look at that. I'm actually ashamed watching it over again because, even though I won, my mistakes were near beginner level. But I guess I can set aside some pride.

Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRP-D9uT2ZI
I hate posting matches for critique when I know I did bad haha but we'll all here to get better. One thing I'll point out of for your lack of a game plan against a Luigi, you kind of just threw moves out and planned that they would hit which in theory seems to be the right thing, but you can easily get punished for misplacing your attacks. My idea against Luigi when I play one is to cut off his strength which is mobility. The best way to do this is by ALWAYS establishing your position in center stage, it forces his mobility to be cut in half and he'll have to approach you, this is when your moves come in handy to stuff his approaches and they'll also lead into combo opportunities. Also, instead of using risky moves like side b/down b in the neutral try to use your tilts because the range is really good for you to throw out every so often and even jabs because of their startup frames. Aside from my advice, Skytch was head on with what he said.
 

Diosama

Stand User
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
309
Location
Montreal, QC
Thanks everyone. Luigi is a matchup I have next to no experience with, but I won't use that as an excuse. Since then, I've been trying to cut down on wavelanding, or at least find more appropriate uses for it instead of spamming it. Side B and Down Bs were definitely me hoping he would wavedash into them by mistake, I didn't give my opponent enough credit. Maybe I can get another match recorded next week.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Blea normally tries to get my landing lag, so AC bair to pivot jab and low ftilt work well to keep him at bay. DJ aerials after sh aerials can be good too, just keep it safe. Luigi can punish any habit tho so you can't get predictable.
 
Last edited:

F. Stein

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
237
Location
Wyoming
Got a sick combo off on a platform the other day. Falco came up onto a lower platform with me, I dropped to Uair and doublejumped where he let me have a grab. Grab > pummel > D-throw > rising Dair for his DI behind then I hit Down B while I was still airborn and launched him with wizard's foot. It was awesome.
 

Masteroki

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
74
Got a sick combo off on a platform the other day. Falco came up onto a lower platform with me, I dropped to Uair and doublejumped where he let me have a grab. Grab > pummel > D-throw > rising Dair for his DI behind then I hit Down B while I was still airborn and launched him with wizard's foot. It was awesome.
I always get the sickest combos, and NEVER record them. I got a 0-death on a Falco on Yoshi's and I had like 3 hard read dairs into a down b for the kill. Kudos on the combo though!
 

YvngFlameHoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
592
Location
Dade County
one time in tournament I faired all the shy guys and they extended my hitbox and hit a falcon out of his jump. I made the big shy guy in the sky proud
 

Swagic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
406
Location
Indianapolis or South Florida
Guys... How do DI...

Well, actually, how should I go about actually doing it? Played some friends today and I kept getting hit then noticing "**** no DI." Lost a lot of matches because of that. I can tell when I do it, and I understand how it works, but I'm REALLY not used to actually doing it.

Also, I love the Lv 9 Ganon strategies. Everybody should use more Up-B. Well, at least as a mixup.
 
Last edited:

Diosama

Stand User
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
309
Location
Montreal, QC
Sometime you just gotta accept the fact that you're going to get hit in a situation and quickly hold your control stick appropriately. For example: Falcon is holding the ledge, forcing Ganon to up b on stage to recover. Ganon lands, but due to lag, is hit by a getup Knee by Falcon. Expecting this, Ganon DIs the hit.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
It's anticipation and reaction. Most times on stage you can hold whichever form of away DI is optimal until you see a strong hit coming. These moves take a few extra frames to come out, so you have time to switch to survival DI. Then you have to know at what percent survival DI begins to be safe. If you do a side-b and whiff, hold down and away and you can often ASDI grab their punish. Hold down and in when you read a jab and grab. SDI is important too.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
How about when she does them at that stupid-*** angle to kill a low up-b?
It's possible with multiple SDI inputs to get yourself closer, but not for us. If it's just one needle, one SDI input probably comes close to cancelling out the positioning you lose from being hit.
 

DCW

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Georgia
D DCW 3 matches in 7 minutes, now that's melee lol. I saw some really good stuff at times. Remember, if you want to cg, you have to dash jc grab DI away, and you only want to turnaround grab for DI behind when he's under 65%. But you were definitely going for some difficult regrabs lol (5:02 unnecessary dash, just turnaround grab). At that percent you can also turnaround jab, which is easier, and since it wouldn't knock down, you can regrab him during landing lag if he didn't DI away. At 4:10 I love double stomps but a nair or uair would've forced a tech on a platform, which can mean a KO setup. Try to get to the ledge faster when you hit Falco offstage and try to be facing backwards, obviously fair at the ledge rarely hits, and it leaves you more open than whiffing a uair or bair since you have to turn to retreat. In many matchups, whiffed tipman at ledge to dash retreating bair catches their ledgehop punish attempt (that bair). If you whiff the fair you're getting hit usually. Your DI was really on point at times but like your tech (and mine), it's inconsistent. Try to react a little bit sooner when you get hit in situations where you could've immediately techroll'd away, I saw you miss some important techs on stage.

It for now.
Thanks for the feedback, ACE. Yeah, I was messing up the chaingrab big time. I need to go back and rememorize all the percents when different followups become necessary. I hadn't thought of the turnaround jab regrab idea--I'll give that a try.

In regard to bad DI and missing important techs, were you referring to pillar combos? I get stuck in those and they last forever...I don't know how to get out of them.

What if I said his movement seems to have the most potential, but isn't necessarily utilized in the most efficient way? I definitely can see that in the spacie's matchups in particular. I guess my definition of "best" is flawed.

D DCW Aside from what ace said, I see a good amount of holes in your neutral game. You're too fast to shield, even after you cc a laser. When you have the space and falco has committed to a sh aerial approach following a laser or you're close by him straight after a laser, cc jab is the way to go. If you shield preemptively, you're playing into his hands.

I see you have shield drops down pretty well, something apparently only a few Ganons can do kappa. But you have the same problem I used to have and still do to some extent: you're predictable with em. You almost always went for shield drop uair. That's one of the best things you can do out of shield drop, but it's not always safe. Try mixing up what you do oos on platforms. Rising sh dair can be good. Wd off works too sometimes. And shield drop wl can give you some good spacial advantages.

You have a bad habit of side-bing too much. You probably know. Sometimes it was pretty good, like when you do it in the opposite direction after a jab.

For DI, try to DI behind falco off shines more. It's harder for him to followup.

Finally, try to find more uses for dash attack. It's really good vs. falco, and the one or two times you did it it worked. In fact, I'd say try to replace your desperate side-bs with dash attacks when falco is close by just as a way of experimenting with what situations it works in.
Thanks, Wanted. I agree my neutral game has a lot of holes. I'll try to not shield quite so much...should my modus operandi be to stay out of shield as much as possible versus Falco? That would make sense, since Falco has ridiculous shield pressure, I just haven't ever explicitly thought about it those terms.

Good point on mixing up shield drops, and yeah, I have side-B problems. : p You mention DIing Falco's shine behind--I thought down and away was best. As I said earlier, though, I seem to get stuck in pillar combos forever.
 
Last edited:

Diosama

Stand User
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
309
Location
Montreal, QC
Shielding against Falco is important, as it is against everyone. The idea is to shield often, just not to stay in shield too long because of the ridiculous amounts of pressure he can exert. Take a look at SSBM Tutorial's video about how to deal with Falco lazers, since they are what force you into a difficult situation in the first place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGtPF_13AaA

Kage once told me you can SDI up Falco's shine to avoid an oncoming dair. Should you be hit by dair, it's of the utmost importance that you tech your landing, or else it keeps going on and on.
 
Top Bottom