Linguini
Smash Master
RedmanSSBM
nah it's actually a completely random nickname my best friends came up with when we were like 6 rofl. I do love pasta, and anything italian for that matter tho LOL
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
RedmanSSBM
nah it's actually a completely random nickname my best friends came up with when we were like 6 rofl. I do love pasta, and anything italian for that matter tho LOLLinguini, that was the 24000th post in your thread. 
I'm going to Georgia's monthly tomorrow. HBox will be there, which is super cool! There are a good Peach player and Luigi player in my pool, but I'll do my best to make it out. I'll report back with my results.
I'm going to Georgia's monthly tomorrow. HBox will be there, which is super cool! There are a good Peach player and Luigi player in my pool, but I'll do my best to make it out. I'll report back with my results.
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RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Damn I had a dream last night about me playing Ganon for the first time in forever against HomeMadeWaffles and just straight bodying his Fox. I even remember getting like 3 or 4 dairs into a fair string that killed him and I was just playing like a mad man. It was on Dreamland too ROFL.
I hope someday that will be a reality.
I hope someday that will be a reality.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
My girlfriend said I once said in my sleep
"Jason ****ing bodied that kid"
LMAO
"Jason ****ing bodied that kid"
LMAO
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
spider_sense
Smash Champion
I must have ****ed that kid up decent. LOL
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Took him straight to Gotem City.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
But characters pretty much dies with down-B and usually puts you closer to the edge so you have more time to react to the edgeguard if they havent died. Also reverse down-B is broken near the ledge, it always catches any players off guard.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
It has to be at kill percent or catch them off guard, but yeah it'll do it lol. I down-b too much.
Hey, i'm new to the forum as well as Ganon. I wanted to know good OOS options because my friend (Falco main) seems to always keep me in shield with lasers, dair, and shines. The only thing that works for me is rolling but he punishes it every time. On the good side, I can either take a stock or do heavy damage whenever I can get a grab /knockdown. Another approach I tried was platform camping but it limits so much of my options,i'd rather use the platforms to create opportunities. So I do fairly well when we play until he gets right outside of my grab range, I seem to just get stuck.
SlippinJimmy
Smash Rookie
More n0ne ganon from mango's stream http://www.twitch.tv/mang0/v/37282672?t=02h16m45s
His movement is unlike anything I've seen....
His movement is unlike anything I've seen....
I'm back. Man, Xif bopped me hard. He was so aggressive--unlike any other Peach I've ever played. I also lost 2-0 to the good Luigi main, which was disappointing. I wanted to take at least a game from him, if not the set, since I think I can do well in that matchup. Nevertheless, I made it out of pools. In bracket, I went 1-2. I played GAwes first. Though he won, I did surprisingly well. Next I eliminated a South Carolinean Peach named Perthro. Then I was eliminated by Doppleganger. He played as Falco and camped me hard on Dreamland the first game. When I counterpicked FoD, he switched to Samus. I should have won, but didn't pull it out.
Overall good tournament. Pools were disappointing, but bracket was better. It's fun representing Ganon.
Overall good tournament. Pools were disappointing, but bracket was better. It's fun representing Ganon.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
You'll be wanting to use your shield a lot against Falco to negate his laser game ability, and you really want to get comfortable with doing instant upairs out of shield after the laser hits your shield or you powershield it. Doing instant upairs p\out of shield or wavedashing out of shield into jab or ftilt can be some useful ways to get in on Falco, but it's important to keep your space vs him cause you don't want him to put that pressure on you too much. If you pay attention to lapses in his shield pressure, you can just wavedash out of shield that ish and counter with an ftilt or just get away and retreat to a platform (generally not a good idea but if you use the platform to get around lasers, it can be helpful, especially if the Falco full hops to try to laser you)
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
First off, welcome to the G boards, where questions are always welcome. Feel free to blow this thread up. If anything someone says goes over your head (even if you simply don't know what an acronym stands for) just ask for clarification.
Second, record some videos. If you have a smart phone and a small table or desk you're golden. Just lean the phone against something, zoom in and record some friendlies. Post them to YouTube and delete it off your phone so you can do it again, and post it up here. You'll get better help that way.
Unfortunately everyone has to shield vs Falco sooner or later. The decisions you make OoS should be based off the precise spacing of his approach, and how and where he hits your shield. These micro-situations are extremely important; they show you that the little things matter.
For instance, when you get crossed up, you should either......
1. Roll forward
2. WD OoS forward
3. Bair OoS (fading away)
4. Spot dodge OoS
5. Reverse up-b OoS
6. Roll backwards (mix-up, and sometimes good for keeping center stage)
7. Fullhop dair OoS (don't pass these opportunities up)
8. Jump OoS to platform (wL, NIL instant drop, shield to bait shield drop uair)
.......based on the specifics of the situation.
You don't want to bair OoS when he's able to utilt before you can get the bair out. You have to recognize whether an option is safe and/or effective near immediately and react asap. You don't want to up-b OoS when he's at super low%. You don't want to roll right next to the ledge, etc etc etc.
There's a start.
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I'll be sure to experiment with all of these options and update you on how things went, I feel like wD OOS would be the most practical for my play style because I love his max range so I focus a lot more on spacing when I play.
All of this is extremely helpful, thank you. I will put all of these to the test as well as focus more on his patterns with his approach to see if I can adapt properly. Also, what does NIL mean?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
NIL= No impact land.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
Well, I've identified my biggest weakness- I'm awful at making adjustments in my play style. For example, last night I was playing some friends in a small tournament. I know for a fact I'm considerably better than all of them on a consistent basis, but this time, I got knocked out first. Why? Because I kept making the same mistake 5, 6, 7 times a match, and they punished it. I know the mistakes I'm making, and I know the better options, but I keep doing it. Is there a quick fix or is this one of those "play until you don't have those habits anymore" things?
For the curious, the main mistakes:
1. Chasing rolls with down-b (I'm doing it less now!)
2. Predictable ledge options. I went tournament winner or ledgehop jab every time and my friend's Luigi destroyed them.
3. Rolling behind a shielding Captain Falcon and eating a down smash. I should be up-bing that, he was in range every time.
So yeah. I make mistakes, see that I'm making them, know what to change, but don't do it.
For the curious, the main mistakes:
1. Chasing rolls with down-b (I'm doing it less now!)
2. Predictable ledge options. I went tournament winner or ledgehop jab every time and my friend's Luigi destroyed them.
3. Rolling behind a shielding Captain Falcon and eating a down smash. I should be up-bing that, he was in range every time.
So yeah. I make mistakes, see that I'm making them, know what to change, but don't do it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
It's nice seeing west coast Falcons play a Ganon other than bizz. Mango should put these on YouTube or allow one of his goons to upload it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
^^ 2:32:48 in that vid... Wd to immediate dd. Underused!
https://youtu.be/pzrd61bsfHk well here it it. I lost pretty badly but i'm more concerned about the mistakes I made rather than who won the match. Feel free to critique this as freely as you want, all advice is appreciated.
I'll just list some better options and let someone more knowledgeable comment on your playstyle. Here are some things that I noticed.
1:23 and 2:11 was an opportunity for a tech I believe. Just something random I noticed.
2:43 was an opportunity for a grab, into chain grab because he rollod towards you.
2:52 was an opportunity for invincible Uair to regrab instead of that get-up.
3:32 chance for a grab into chaingrab or UpB OOS.
3:40 I would have chosen reverse Uair or Bair instead of Dair.
3:52 I would have stayed on stage and used Ftilt. Mew2King says to cover the sideB option and react to the UpB, that woulda put you at least into edgeguard mode or knocked him down.
4:16 that was a hilarious reverse Uair, goodjob.
4:40 I wouldn't have come on the platform, I guess you thought you had a read on him rolling forward? I still would have Uair'ed through the plat.
5:07 shoulda been a jab or a Ftilt to space, was the Fsmash a misinput?
5:30 he Di'ed full behind on your Dthrow and escaped, I think Ace would recommend a jab or Ftilt to knock him down? But DI behind on Falco at that percentage is like, impossible to regrab I think. Good Dair reaction afterwards.
5:40, gotta be more aggressive on that edgeguard he got back before you were ready it looks like.
6:03, I'm guessing you read that he would get up a lot faster but I would have gone into reverse Uair or Bair mode instead of Fair.
Just some random, maybe better suggestions for those situations.
Thanks for the suggestions, i'll be sure to keep them in mind!
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PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
M
Masteroki
it seems your main problem vs falco is dealing with lasers - true for most ganons unfamiliar with the matchup or inexperienced in smash in general.
The things F. Stein suggested, while true, are things that you'll more than likely learn in time after playing the game a bit more. In terms of just falco matchup knowledge, lasers are the thing you need to take care of most. Falco lasers are annoying, but once you learn to beat them, they aren't all that good - more of a gimmick, really, the way most falcos use them.
Ok, so the first thing you have to keep in mind is that a laser shot at you in mid air is basically a free opening for falco. This isn't always true, but for our purposes it is. What you were doing in your match wasn't bad in terms of spacing and move placement... for a character like fox. You could work on walling out a little more, but essentially you get how to work ganon. You would jump when you expected him to come in, which, generally, is true. But for falco, it's much, much different because of those lasers.
You essentially don't want to jump BEFORE a laser except at certain spacings. If you jump preemptively and the falco isn't in lag from shooting a laser, he has all the time in the world to stuff you. Sometimes, you can get a double jump --> fair out if you read a laser, but you have to react and if he doesn't shoot the laser under you, it's time to pull back. Look what happens here. You had your spacing correct and everything - he probably wouldn't be able to get in, but he still hadn't shot a laser yet. He shoots one and now he's on the aggressive. He didn't take his opportunity, but if he had come in with a nair / shine, you would've taken a lot of damage.
Now, just after that is what I was talking about with the double jump over the laser --> fair. Nice. Now, keep in mind the spacing / situation at which that works. When he shoots the laser, how far, etc. Just keep in mind that aerials are not the same wall in this matchup that they are in other matchups because of how easily they are stuffed.
Next part of the laser game: crouch cancelling. Crouch cancelling lasers into a jab is godlike in this matchup. When the falco is CLOSE to you (think just out of your tilt range or on the ledge), you can crouch cancel the lasers and jab immediately. The hitstun is crazy small and you'll get a jab out almost always. Would've worked here.
The reason I say this works at close range is because at farther range, while you will still have time to act out of crouch cancel, is because they can nair you after the laser and your jab won't beat it.
Ok, here it is again. You're preemptively throwing out an aerial. You couldn't possibly have covered anything with this up air. While up air is a GREAT move for stuffing aerials, the laser made it useless. While it didn't hit you, it covered the space at which you would have been able to counter attack. Next time, try this: shield the laser and then immediately do a short hop / full hop up air. This is a favorite of linguini's. Both short hop and full hop up airs will be able to stuff any aerial that falco throws at you. It would've worked if you shielded the laser first and then up air'd.
Shielding is the next thing you want to learn vs lasers. Go for the powershield if you can, but it isn't necessary. The shield stun from lasers is almost nothing. Seriously. It looks like you're on 20XX here, so practice a bit on your own. Set the falco to just do SH lasers and try shielding (not powershielding) and then buffer the jump out of shield with the c-stick. You'll be amazed at how fast you can react out of shield.
If you're looking for how to avoid falco lasers, linguini is your go-to guy to watch. He has that matchup down to a science. Spider_sense is also very good at the matchup and laser evasion. I'm not bad either, but not at the level of those guys.
This set of mine is actually a pretty good example of how to deal with lasers. I cc (crouch cancel) a lot of them into jab, especially at the ledge. I kind of fall apart in the later games, but the first two are pretty good reference I think. This is linguini vs pork chops. Best ganon vs falco vs best falco vs ganon. Check it out for reference.
The things F. Stein suggested, while true, are things that you'll more than likely learn in time after playing the game a bit more. In terms of just falco matchup knowledge, lasers are the thing you need to take care of most. Falco lasers are annoying, but once you learn to beat them, they aren't all that good - more of a gimmick, really, the way most falcos use them.
Ok, so the first thing you have to keep in mind is that a laser shot at you in mid air is basically a free opening for falco. This isn't always true, but for our purposes it is. What you were doing in your match wasn't bad in terms of spacing and move placement... for a character like fox. You could work on walling out a little more, but essentially you get how to work ganon. You would jump when you expected him to come in, which, generally, is true. But for falco, it's much, much different because of those lasers.
You essentially don't want to jump BEFORE a laser except at certain spacings. If you jump preemptively and the falco isn't in lag from shooting a laser, he has all the time in the world to stuff you. Sometimes, you can get a double jump --> fair out if you read a laser, but you have to react and if he doesn't shoot the laser under you, it's time to pull back. Look what happens here. You had your spacing correct and everything - he probably wouldn't be able to get in, but he still hadn't shot a laser yet. He shoots one and now he's on the aggressive. He didn't take his opportunity, but if he had come in with a nair / shine, you would've taken a lot of damage.
Now, just after that is what I was talking about with the double jump over the laser --> fair. Nice. Now, keep in mind the spacing / situation at which that works. When he shoots the laser, how far, etc. Just keep in mind that aerials are not the same wall in this matchup that they are in other matchups because of how easily they are stuffed.
Next part of the laser game: crouch cancelling. Crouch cancelling lasers into a jab is godlike in this matchup. When the falco is CLOSE to you (think just out of your tilt range or on the ledge), you can crouch cancel the lasers and jab immediately. The hitstun is crazy small and you'll get a jab out almost always. Would've worked here.
The reason I say this works at close range is because at farther range, while you will still have time to act out of crouch cancel, is because they can nair you after the laser and your jab won't beat it.
Ok, here it is again. You're preemptively throwing out an aerial. You couldn't possibly have covered anything with this up air. While up air is a GREAT move for stuffing aerials, the laser made it useless. While it didn't hit you, it covered the space at which you would have been able to counter attack. Next time, try this: shield the laser and then immediately do a short hop / full hop up air. This is a favorite of linguini's. Both short hop and full hop up airs will be able to stuff any aerial that falco throws at you. It would've worked if you shielded the laser first and then up air'd.
Shielding is the next thing you want to learn vs lasers. Go for the powershield if you can, but it isn't necessary. The shield stun from lasers is almost nothing. Seriously. It looks like you're on 20XX here, so practice a bit on your own. Set the falco to just do SH lasers and try shielding (not powershielding) and then buffer the jump out of shield with the c-stick. You'll be amazed at how fast you can react out of shield.
If you're looking for how to avoid falco lasers, linguini is your go-to guy to watch. He has that matchup down to a science. Spider_sense is also very good at the matchup and laser evasion. I'm not bad either, but not at the level of those guys.
This set of mine is actually a pretty good example of how to deal with lasers. I cc (crouch cancel) a lot of them into jab, especially at the ledge. I kind of fall apart in the later games, but the first two are pretty good reference I think. This is linguini vs pork chops. Best ganon vs falco vs best falco vs ganon. Check it out for reference.
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This was very insightful as i'll be sure to include all of this in my game, I also appreciate the time stamps to go along with the examples whether it was me doing something wrong/right and why. The last game we played (wasn't recorded) I focused mainly on spacing and not throwing out preemptive aerials and the game went to last stock with both of us over 100% but he ended up clutching it out. A question I have is how good is the fair/bair for spacing in this MU? Should I be attempting to zone him out or should I try to work my way in?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Constantly play defense with aggressive stage control. Once you get used to his options you can pressure hard.
Jab and uair scoop (an instant uair that hits them on the way up) are insanely good in this matchup for walls/pressure. Bair and ftilt come immediately after.
Jab and uair scoop (an instant uair that hits them on the way up) are insanely good in this matchup for walls/pressure. Bair and ftilt come immediately after.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Ace is spot on, Masteroki. Up air scoop is great if you're getting pressured by bair - say you're in your shield and the falco is spacing bairs. Up air will scoop him up before he can get the bair out. Retreating fair will work here too, but will trade a lot of the time (jank hitbox on spacies bair).
Bair is good for a wall, just be sure to space it around lasers. Bair oos (out of shield) is good, too, but be aware of the up tilt, as Ace said earlier. Example
Fair is ok in the matchup, more situational than anything. Not that great for creating spammy spacing walls. Good if you read a laser and double jump over it.
As for zoning vs aggression, this is a weird matchup. Some matchups are pretty much constant zoning, like fox, but this one is definitely a mix. Ace said play defensive with aggressive stage control. Don't approach too much, but if you have center, don't give that **** up. Don't let them laser their way in to center from the ledge or anything like that.
Bair is good for a wall, just be sure to space it around lasers. Bair oos (out of shield) is good, too, but be aware of the up tilt, as Ace said earlier. Example
Fair is ok in the matchup, more situational than anything. Not that great for creating spammy spacing walls. Good if you read a laser and double jump over it.
As for zoning vs aggression, this is a weird matchup. Some matchups are pretty much constant zoning, like fox, but this one is definitely a mix. Ace said play defensive with aggressive stage control. Don't approach too much, but if you have center, don't give that **** up. Don't let them laser their way in to center from the ledge or anything like that.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Do some reading my dude. You can edgeguard falco so many ways. Reverse uair is the #1 thing to know. Position yourself well with your jumps, so that you're midair and able to hit uair or bair when you see him side-b. You can react to it.
Low ftilt is good but won't hit sweetspots.
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RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Damn I need to come back to this page at a later time to read all of this info. I love reading about the Ganon v Falco matchup.
gmBottles
Fun Haver
I don't even come on here to learn Ganon stuff anymore I just hang cause ganon fam is chill as ****
I guess I'll know what to look for whenever I play a Ganondorf though
I guess I'll know what to look for whenever I play a Ganondorf though
Thanks for the in-depth laser advice, it's just what I needed. You mention jumping and upairing oos, but isn't wd oos equally important, if not more so? I watched a set by Spider_Sense vs a Falco where he used wd oos really well for spacing.
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When you play friendlies, stop focusing on winning and start focusing on improving. Always going for the win can reinforce bad habits, since they occasionally work against lesser opponents, but they will cripple you when you face someone strong enough to punish them consistently. This focus on winning over improving makes it harder to break those bad habits, so you need to change your priorities. I recommend going into friendlies with a goal of improving your gameplay in a certain area that you have identified as lacking. It's okay if you lose--focus on fixing that problem instead of losing. It's the strategy for long-term over short-term success.
Here's an example. When I started getting competitive, I realized I was addicted to side- and down-B. I was throwing them out in neutral a lot and getting punished hard, especially as I encountered better players. I decided to focus not on winning my friendlies, but on cutting those moves out of my neutral game entirely until I had killed the bad habit and could use them correctly. Now, months later, I side-B and down-B reasonably. I don't have to focus on it anymore--it's become automatic. I've built a new habit, one that's less risky but still uses side-B in particular to impressive effect, if I may say so myself.
I'm just repeating SleepyK's advice here, for the record, along with my personal example. Here's his lengthy but good video on getting better, including overcoming bad habits.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
I do believe we call that a triple post. Not like we have any mods to care about it.
Yeah, that's something I've been trying to do lately. It gets a bit frustrating when I can say, even before I press the buttons, "this is a bad idea." It's the putting new stuff into practice part that I'm not doing well in, although I am getting better at it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I spam **** I know is bad all the time lol. I think I frustrate
spider_sense
, who is constantly giving me good reminders (as I him) as we play, lol. He wants me to perfect my game but I'm over here getting impatient saying "yo **** this guy" and yolo a side-b or down-b, lmao. But he can't deny he laughed his ass off when he saw me hit porkchops falco with 3 side-b's in combo, lmao. This game is so fun.
Swagic
Smash Journeyman
That's the biggest reason I do it. I'm impatient. But my friends have a name for that side-B combo. I used to spam that until they hated me... That's what started the problem. We called it "Scoop City." Then they learned how to stop it...I spam **** I know is bad all the time lol. I think I frustrate
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Dair to side-b at low percents is swag a f
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Definitely not bizz LOL styles be too different