ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
Anyone have the frame data for ganon's rld and nil from ledge?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
According to Kadano's chart (somewhere), Ganons NIL frame perfect from ledge yields 18 frames of invincibility. Seems hard to believe, that's one frame away from ledgehop dsmash being invincible, lmao. I honestly don't know.
Last edited:
That's only if some really weird condition is met, like if you grab the ledge with up-B in a special setup. In normal situations, it's much less than 18 frames.
Gotta learn invincible run off fair!
Edit:
grabbing the ledge is always 30 invincibility frames (23 actionable?) isn't it?
Last edited:
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
How? Excactly what does it accomplish, I've never heard of it before. I thought grabbing the edge always was the same.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Replying to this is easier
So it's 8 frames with a regular NIL from ledge? Invincible jab and grab will have to do.
Ok, so I just learned this (watching a CF on stream) reverse marth killer edgeguard. Just do a falling up air the moment marth up b's your shield. This is faster to set up than the regular, as you can just teeter cancel a run or waveland. Does this work even if marth sweetspots?
Ok, so I just learned this (watching a CF on stream) reverse marth killer edgeguard. Just do a falling up air the moment marth up b's your shield. This is faster to set up than the regular, as you can just teeter cancel a run or waveland. Does this work even if marth sweetspots?
Last edited:
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I don't think that works on a sweetspot, but it does work kinda lol.
Another thing, is if the Marth is used to the Marth killer, and you know he's going to up-b it early to land on stage, if you want you can stop holding away and tilt slightly toward the stage instead, and do almost anything you want to his landing lag, instead of limiting yourself to ledgehop grab. Of course, you have to know he's not going to try to sweetspot, but they rarely do if they're familiar with the Marth killer.
Another thing, is if the Marth is used to the Marth killer, and you know he's going to up-b it early to land on stage, if you want you can stop holding away and tilt slightly toward the stage instead, and do almost anything you want to his landing lag, instead of limiting yourself to ledgehop grab. Of course, you have to know he's not going to try to sweetspot, but they rarely do if they're familiar with the Marth killer.
Last edited:
Diosama
Stand User
So Im driving back from a tournament in ottawa. Around 90 people with top 2 advancing to bracket from pools. Unfortunately I got 3rd so I didn't make it. Ryan Ford was in my pool and I wasn't expecting to beat him, but 2nd place was a Samus main whom I felt like I could've beaten. I struggled a bit with missiles and definitely ****ed up a lot of edgeguards.
Gonna study the mu and practice with abother Samus from mtl. Just wondering about 2 things.
1. Edgeguarding. Tipman on stage or invincible bair/upair?
2. Does dthrow > upsmash work? What percent? Will it KO?
Gonna study the mu and practice with abother Samus from mtl. Just wondering about 2 things.
1. Edgeguarding. Tipman on stage or invincible bair/upair?
2. Does dthrow > upsmash work? What percent? Will it KO?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Nowadays, I rarely even try to edgeguard the best Samus players in SFL. You have to have a read. I try to get them when they grapple, jump, up-b, or snap to the ledge. Usually with reverse uair but that one is tricky!!
Well, maybe rarely is too strong of a word, but edgeguarding her can get really risky if you aren't smart about it, so I often end up giving her ledge. Sucks, but you can pressure her from there.
Edit: down-b bombs are punishable too, she always ends up about half of Samus's height higher from where she inputs the down-b. But obviously she has lots of horizontal aerial mobility there.
Well, maybe rarely is too strong of a word, but edgeguarding her can get really risky if you aren't smart about it, so I often end up giving her ledge. Sucks, but you can pressure her from there.
Edit: down-b bombs are punishable too, she always ends up about half of Samus's height higher from where she inputs the down-b. But obviously she has lots of horizontal aerial mobility there.
Last edited:
Diosama
Stand User
Was really easy to edgeguard after a bomb, just slid down and bair while she was still in ball form
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Oh and also, uair is basically the only option after dthrow. You're lucky to get a fair at low/mid%. Her weight lags Ganon's throw bad and she's somehow floaty as ****ing luigi lol. Makes grab follow-ups difficult.
Last edited:
ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'm curious as well. Not a super quick test though. The frame data will differ from stage to stage regarding minimum frames holding forward required (due to different edges having different properties), which will effect the window for the backward input for the wL.
Last edited:
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
From the testing I've done that holds true. Unfortunately none of us really have our **** together in ganonville to keep data like that in the open. Maybe for the better
God dammit I just spent five minutes trying to get ACEs signature emote that would've been perfect for ending this post.
God dammit I just spent five minutes trying to get ACEs signature emote that would've been perfect for ending this post.
Last edited:
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Aight so I wanna get a good optimization discussion going. What area of the following do y'all value the most: tech chasing, DI mixups, DI in general, edgeguards, and ledge tech. The latter two go hand in hand but there is an important distinction, yung ones.
Last edited:
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Edgeguarding always leads to good discussion.
what data are you looking for, exactly?
PSA: Different ways to punish sheik's dsmash on shield
I've been peeved at this move for a while now so last week or so I decided to come up with answers for punishing it OoS. A lot of sheiks use it as a 'panic button' because it gets you off of them, has big reward, is very fast and easy to do, and is generally hard to punish. Don't let them get away with such a braindead option. I can elaborate on stuff but here is the gist of it. It's important to know that dsmash has three hits, one in front that comes out first (quicker and stronger than the other 2) and 2 that are weaker and slower but hit on both sides. There are probably other ways to punish it too but this is the 20GT edition punish game.
Total: 49
Hit: 5-9, 16-19, 22-24
Charge frame: 2
Legs invincible: 5
IASA: 46
IF SHE IS VERY CLOSE TO YOU AND IN FRONT OF YOU:
(you are in a position where multiple hits of the attack will connect with your shield)
Shield the first hit, and recognize that you are being dsmashed, then SSDI the 2nd and 3rd hits of dsmash towards her and shield grab. The timing on the SDI is fairly strict but the timing for the grab is very lenient. Requires a bit of practice, but obviously huge payoff.
IF SHE IS VERY CLOSE TO YOU AND BEHIND YOU:
(you are in a position where multiple hits of the attack will connect with your shield)
Shield the first hit, and recognize that you are being dsmashed, then SSDI the 2nd hit AWAY from her (thus putting yourself out of range of the 3rd hit). Then bair or upB OoS immediately.
IF SHE IS SPACED IN FRONT OF YOU:
(you are in a position where shielding the first hit will push you out of range of the 2nd hit)
Shield the first hit, and dair / fair OoS ASAP. At low percents (up to 20ish I'm guessing) do dair -> grab. Above that (until 50ish I'm guessing) do dair -> fair. Above that just fair.
IF SHE IS SPACED BEHIND YOU:
(you are in a position where shielding the first hit will push you out of range of the 2nd hit)
Shield the first hit, and dair / bair OoS ASAP. Basically the same as the last one but bair at high %s instead of fair. It's also a bit easier
Yes all of these punishes are 'guaranteed', at least in the situations I'm describing. Things will be different if you powershield it or if she dsmashes facing the wrong way (that one is actually very tricky). If you powershield the first hit you can probably dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, or downB but I didn't test that.
EDIT: feel free to add this to another thread for safekeeping / reference
I've been peeved at this move for a while now so last week or so I decided to come up with answers for punishing it OoS. A lot of sheiks use it as a 'panic button' because it gets you off of them, has big reward, is very fast and easy to do, and is generally hard to punish. Don't let them get away with such a braindead option. I can elaborate on stuff but here is the gist of it. It's important to know that dsmash has three hits, one in front that comes out first (quicker and stronger than the other 2) and 2 that are weaker and slower but hit on both sides. There are probably other ways to punish it too but this is the 20GT edition punish game.
Total: 49
Hit: 5-9, 16-19, 22-24
Charge frame: 2
Legs invincible: 5
IASA: 46
IF SHE IS VERY CLOSE TO YOU AND IN FRONT OF YOU:
(you are in a position where multiple hits of the attack will connect with your shield)
Shield the first hit, and recognize that you are being dsmashed, then SSDI the 2nd and 3rd hits of dsmash towards her and shield grab. The timing on the SDI is fairly strict but the timing for the grab is very lenient. Requires a bit of practice, but obviously huge payoff.
IF SHE IS VERY CLOSE TO YOU AND BEHIND YOU:
(you are in a position where multiple hits of the attack will connect with your shield)
Shield the first hit, and recognize that you are being dsmashed, then SSDI the 2nd hit AWAY from her (thus putting yourself out of range of the 3rd hit). Then bair or upB OoS immediately.
IF SHE IS SPACED IN FRONT OF YOU:
(you are in a position where shielding the first hit will push you out of range of the 2nd hit)
Shield the first hit, and dair / fair OoS ASAP. At low percents (up to 20ish I'm guessing) do dair -> grab. Above that (until 50ish I'm guessing) do dair -> fair. Above that just fair.
IF SHE IS SPACED BEHIND YOU:
(you are in a position where shielding the first hit will push you out of range of the 2nd hit)
Shield the first hit, and dair / bair OoS ASAP. Basically the same as the last one but bair at high %s instead of fair. It's also a bit easier
Yes all of these punishes are 'guaranteed', at least in the situations I'm describing. Things will be different if you powershield it or if she dsmashes facing the wrong way (that one is actually very tricky). If you powershield the first hit you can probably dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, or downB but I didn't test that.
EDIT: feel free to add this to another thread for safekeeping / reference
Last edited:
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
My Ganon theory. Tell me what you guys think. I might even make a thread on reddit, but I have a feeling people will just come in with some dumb meme ****. Anyway, here it is folks.
DI is the most important thing you can be good at with Ganon. Simply put, Ganon is easy to combo by most characters. However, due to his extremely heavy weight, he lives forever IF he doesn't get combo killed. As long as you can mitigate combos with super precise SDI and combo DI, you literally could see Ganon being one of the best defensive characters in the game just due to his survivability.
Next most important thing is powershielding. Optimally, powershield jab is kind of a broken option in neutral when you think about it. Frame 3 jab that knocks down at super low percents straight outta shield. Imagine that ****. Imagine doing that **** all the time. Pretty impossible, but definitely something to strive for.
Then we got decision making out of crouch (oocc (why the **** is this not a thing considering how much crouch is used in this meta? lmao)) and oos. Ganon is a defensive oriented character. But to be clear, it takes someone with aggressive stage positioning inclinations to make him work.You don't get the luxury of giving up center stage to camp up those lasers, charge some **** up, or whatnot. Although sometimes it's good to go to the ledge to get the supa nice ledgedash off. ooo yaaaa. Anyway, I digress.
You have good mixups from defensive positions as Ganon. I mentioned this in a previous post on this page, but you have an insanely good roll as Ganon that is pretty much like a free "get off me" card. Sure, you relinquish control sometimes, but you definitely are less ****ed from a crouching or standing state. If they aren't fast enough to get on you, you can easily take control in a lot of situations. Or at least dictate the flow for a potential opening or two. And that's what it's all about; maximizing the amount of times you engage from an advantageous position. And rolls give you that positioning, baby.
Aight moving on that's Ganon's go-to passive option oos. There's that and spot dodge. But Ganon's spot dodge isn't that great so it's to be used to like any other character. So the rest of his options ooc and oos are all aggressive options. Let's start with oos. All his aerials are slow, but cover a wide range. You just have to know how to take advantage of the latter attribute. And if you do manage to successfully get an opening from taking an aggressive option oos, you know, god forbid that ever happen coming from a Ganon in 2016 amiright guys, you betta be ready to squeeze every last bit of juice you can get outta that hit.
So next up we got the oocc options. You got jab, ftilt, dtilt, shield, grab, and jump. I have styled on a few yungins with cc usmash before, but I don't think it's really a valid option lol. When deciding whether an option is appropriate, you need to weigh how good it is at getting the hit in vs. what you will actually get out of it. So obviously grab is what your going to go for if you can. But sometimes against fast fallers, it's better to get that dtilt setup into an almost guaranteed aerial. Then after that you want to be squeezing in jab and ftilt where you can. Ftilt to hit people that cross you up or land outside of jab range and jab for pretty much anything else.
One seemingly unexplored option out of crouch is powershield. Watch Kage vs. n0ne. Crouch cancel first hit nair into powershield second hit is broken. And that's a pretty easy one to set up relative to what other powershielding setups are because you can anticipate the second hit after feeling that cc work on the first hit. But when you think about it, the possibilities are endless with what you can do with powershield. But more realistically, you're going to be doing a lot more regular shields outta crouch. And honestly that isn't a bad option either. Cause you can sorta option select certain situations to work in your favor.
Anyway, I'll elaborate on this more when I get the time. I'll just leave the beginnings of this here for all the good lil boys of ganonville
DI is the most important thing you can be good at with Ganon. Simply put, Ganon is easy to combo by most characters. However, due to his extremely heavy weight, he lives forever IF he doesn't get combo killed. As long as you can mitigate combos with super precise SDI and combo DI, you literally could see Ganon being one of the best defensive characters in the game just due to his survivability.
Next most important thing is powershielding. Optimally, powershield jab is kind of a broken option in neutral when you think about it. Frame 3 jab that knocks down at super low percents straight outta shield. Imagine that ****. Imagine doing that **** all the time. Pretty impossible, but definitely something to strive for.
Then we got decision making out of crouch (oocc (why the **** is this not a thing considering how much crouch is used in this meta? lmao)) and oos. Ganon is a defensive oriented character. But to be clear, it takes someone with aggressive stage positioning inclinations to make him work.You don't get the luxury of giving up center stage to camp up those lasers, charge some **** up, or whatnot. Although sometimes it's good to go to the ledge to get the supa nice ledgedash off. ooo yaaaa. Anyway, I digress.
You have good mixups from defensive positions as Ganon. I mentioned this in a previous post on this page, but you have an insanely good roll as Ganon that is pretty much like a free "get off me" card. Sure, you relinquish control sometimes, but you definitely are less ****ed from a crouching or standing state. If they aren't fast enough to get on you, you can easily take control in a lot of situations. Or at least dictate the flow for a potential opening or two. And that's what it's all about; maximizing the amount of times you engage from an advantageous position. And rolls give you that positioning, baby.
Aight moving on that's Ganon's go-to passive option oos. There's that and spot dodge. But Ganon's spot dodge isn't that great so it's to be used to like any other character. So the rest of his options ooc and oos are all aggressive options. Let's start with oos. All his aerials are slow, but cover a wide range. You just have to know how to take advantage of the latter attribute. And if you do manage to successfully get an opening from taking an aggressive option oos, you know, god forbid that ever happen coming from a Ganon in 2016 amiright guys, you betta be ready to squeeze every last bit of juice you can get outta that hit.
So next up we got the oocc options. You got jab, ftilt, dtilt, shield, grab, and jump. I have styled on a few yungins with cc usmash before, but I don't think it's really a valid option lol. When deciding whether an option is appropriate, you need to weigh how good it is at getting the hit in vs. what you will actually get out of it. So obviously grab is what your going to go for if you can. But sometimes against fast fallers, it's better to get that dtilt setup into an almost guaranteed aerial. Then after that you want to be squeezing in jab and ftilt where you can. Ftilt to hit people that cross you up or land outside of jab range and jab for pretty much anything else.
One seemingly unexplored option out of crouch is powershield. Watch Kage vs. n0ne. Crouch cancel first hit nair into powershield second hit is broken. And that's a pretty easy one to set up relative to what other powershielding setups are because you can anticipate the second hit after feeling that cc work on the first hit. But when you think about it, the possibilities are endless with what you can do with powershield. But more realistically, you're going to be doing a lot more regular shields outta crouch. And honestly that isn't a bad option either. Cause you can sorta option select certain situations to work in your favor.
Anyway, I'll elaborate on this more when I get the time. I'll just leave the beginnings of this here for all the good lil boys of ganonville
Attachments
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
tm
good ****ing post man.LMFAO and
X WaNtEd X
as well. crouch is under-abused.SDI, SSDI, ASASDI (when you're holding a direction when you're hit while shielding, weird looking acronym), and grounded ASDI are underused. But as far as normal DI, you can basically use up and away as your go-to for combo DI, except for when it makes sense to use down and away (for certain moves near center stage so you can tech/get your footing sooner). The key is switching to survival DI via reaction when you see a strong move coming. After that, you basically just need to know what percentages are safe for survival DI.
Last edited:
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
I feel what homemade waffles said "if you play a character that needs grabs and isn't top tier, you have to have nasty movement, to be able to slide in and get grabs" and I **** with that Cause Bizz does pretty well against sheiks so Ima say that movement mindgames Is mad slept on for my part of the discussion. We gotta break some ankles with Ganon like we on and1
Last edited:
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I honestly think bizz's wavelands are super predictable. But you're right, he makes them work well. West coast needs more Ganons.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
My problem with Alotta Ganon's is that they dumb AF.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
If you go through life looking for smart people, prepare for disappointment lol.
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
I just want a smart Ganon, people can suck my ****
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
welcome to the club. i can't tell you how many times yung scrubs try to go for the "epic disrespect" ganon on me and just get wasted. then they're like "oh you're actually a ganon main...."
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lmao reminds me of a super wavelandy Ganon that was in my pool at Evo. Moonwalks and wavelands galore. JV 8 stocked him LOL
Last edited:
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Jv 8 or 10?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
8. Almost double 4 stock
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
New sm4sh controllers are in, one will not shield drop to the left whatsoever. But it back dashes great. Using the other one tonight some, it shield drops pretty free and back dashes are... Doable. I'll have a more solid opinion after chaingrabbing someone.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I am actually going to have to agree with the whole Falco vs Ganon being better than Falco vs Falcon, at least in the respect of survival ability. Falcon is so easy for Falco to combo because Falcon is a fast faller with no good combo breaker moves to get him out of combos (I have yet to get out of a combo using Falcon's upair. He's not heavy enough rofl). Ganon's falling speed makes it different for Falco's to combo Ganon, though still very doable, I'm just noticing it's much more textbook and easy for mid-level Falco players to combo my Falcon and get like a guaranteed 4 or so hits even WITH good SDI. The nice thing about Ganon vs Falco is when you get that good SDI, it really is hard for Falco to follow up after that. Another thing that I noticed is that punishes are soooo important against Falco as Falcon because if you mess up a punish, you're super likely going to get shined and combo'ed for just making one mistake. At least with Ganon you only need like 2 or 3 hits just to get Falco off stage. Falcon needs a certain sequence of moves to connect and a lot of grabs to work out in his favor for him to get the edge on Falco, so if you have great neutral but ****ty punish game (like me) then Ganon is better for you vs Falco, but if you have a good punish game, then play Falcon.
Also I recently discovered that wall-jump ledge tech bair doesn't work as Falcon, and he rises too high too quickly to land a bair on a Falco that dsmashes you at the edge. I loved hitting those as Ganon.
Also as for the 18 frames of invincibility that you can get from the up-b sweetspot, that comes in handy when you are trying to recover, and you manage to grab the ledge and waveland on, you'll be fully invincible for the full duration of the waveland and then some, so you can use that to get away and take center stage.
Also I recently discovered that wall-jump ledge tech bair doesn't work as Falcon, and he rises too high too quickly to land a bair on a Falco that dsmashes you at the edge. I loved hitting those as Ganon.
Also as for the 18 frames of invincibility that you can get from the up-b sweetspot, that comes in handy when you are trying to recover, and you manage to grab the ledge and waveland on, you'll be fully invincible for the full duration of the waveland and then some, so you can use that to get away and take center stage.
ForTheLulz
Smash Apprentice
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
Ayy any of you cats wanna get some nice ol Google docs going? Several of the R&D Facebook groups I'm in are doing that **** and it's pretty convenient. It'd be nice to pull up some useful data on my phone without having to go into smashboards, ya know?
I'll get this going if no one else takes charge. But I'll be slow. So if anyone is more eager then I am about doing this, feel free to get a head start lol.
I'll get this going if no one else takes charge. But I'll be slow. So if anyone is more eager then I am about doing this, feel free to get a head start lol.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I think falco is easier for ganon than falcon as well. Better survivability (as is true in most matchups that aren't kill-off-the-top heavy). Ganon for sure has a better neutral if you use the linguini strats and up air like your life depends on it / place jabs in the right places. There are not a lot of ways for falco to effectively get in vs ganon if you are really on point with SDI (lasers, dairs, etc) and wall out like a monster.
In addition to ganon's defensive advantages over falcon in the falco matchup, ganon is better at edge guarding... but that's pretty much true for everyone besides marth / sheik anyway.
The only true advantage falcon has over ganon vs falco is his combo game IMO... which is also true for basically every other matchup anyway.
In addition to ganon's defensive advantages over falcon in the falco matchup, ganon is better at edge guarding... but that's pretty much true for everyone besides marth / sheik anyway.
The only true advantage falcon has over ganon vs falco is his combo game IMO... which is also true for basically every other matchup anyway.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
These sm4sh controllers kick ass for chaingrabbing compared to my last controller, pretty happy about that. Both dash back well. Got a Falco from 55 to 100 into ftilt (death via edgehog) in friendlies. One more thing is that since the stick box is more stiff, I tend to have slightly more finesse/control when deciding not to dash at the last second and just grab or simply turnaround grab (and not dash). I'm basically in spaz mode focusing on Ganon while I'm chaingrabbing, ready to slam the stick fast AF. Full DI behind and slight DI behind are the hardest for me to distinguish between. But now, when I'm making those last second decisions with the stick it's not as shaky. Landed a few grabs I thought I would've missed on my old controller.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
PseudoTurtle
I bet falcon has a slightly easier time getting grabs and at top level techchasing leads to death every time. But then again, Ganon has the cg.
Last edited:
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Falcon has a much better time getting a grab vs any character because of how ****ing fast he can move. He moves so fast when you do a dash into a JC grab and slides pretty far too. Falcon is able to basically dash dance and wait for the opponent to commit to something and then just runs in and grab. It's the most basic yet effective thing that Falcon can do and I did it all weekend against every Fox and Marth that tried to nair me in neutral.
So Falcon getting a grab is like an actual offensive option that he can do to other characters, a grab for Ganon is something that he can really only do in defense and if the opponent ****s up. You're definitely not gonna see a Ganon just run up and grab a Fox in neutral unless they are just stupid scared of you. Still, I don't see enough SH wavelands into grabs for the ballsy dash back read, so I'd like to see more of that as well.
So Falcon getting a grab is like an actual offensive option that he can do to other characters, a grab for Ganon is something that he can really only do in defense and if the opponent ****s up. You're definitely not gonna see a Ganon just run up and grab a Fox in neutral unless they are just stupid scared of you. Still, I don't see enough SH wavelands into grabs for the ballsy dash back read, so I'd like to see more of that as well.