Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

RedmanSSBM I see you lurking. You'd be a good mod

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I could do it. But I've trolled this board a little too much lol.

 

[Divinokage]

He's never here...

Thats not true, I read the boards daily.

 

[-ACE-]

Thats not true, I read the boards daily.

I stand corrected. You should moderate the G boards. You down?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

RedmanSSBM I see you lurking. You'd be a good mod

I am on here at least 3 or 4 times a day haha. I think I could manage mod duties

 

[Diosama]

So I finally got a stream game but it was so bad that I'm way too embarassed to have you guys critique it. Long story short I used down b way too much and tried to edgeguard with bair when tipman would've been the better option. vs Luigi, another mu I don't know **** about

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Speaking of weird matchups, anyone have data on the pika chaingrab?

 

[Diosama]

Speaking of weird matchups, anyone have data on the pika chaingrab?

Magus' thread? I don't know where else it would be

 

[-ACE-]

Linguini still #1 vs luigi

Pretty sure I just do early (as possible) standing, turnaround/pivot, and jc grabs depending on DI. Try to time the grab so pika falls into the already open grab box.

According to magus 0-37% before dthrow.

The key is getting the grab lol. You almost have to respect his approach as much as Falcon's. tm pointed out he can also crouch under any grab but dash grab.

 

[Diosama]

Starting tomorrow I'm actually going to contribute something to this board:

***Literally everything Ganon can crouch cancel***

It's something I gotta train myself to do so why not record data for it while I'm at it

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Linguini still #1 vs luigi

And Blea is still #1 vs Ganondorf. It's really cool to see them play each other

Starting tomorrow I'm actually going to contribute something to this board:

***Literally everything Ganon can crouch cancel***

It's something I gotta train myself to do so why not record data for it while I'm at it

I kind of already did this for at least all of the fast fallers: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorfs-knockdown-data.360530/

Basically, any % that would knock you down, is also a percent that Ganon can no longer CC or ASDI down a move and be able to act immediately. If you want to do the data for any non-fast faller, feel free to. I haven't felt like data mining for a while but that miiiight change soon. And when I say 'might' I mean like "I might enter a tournament sometime soon" Linguini 'might'.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I feel like high and low ftilts should work well vs Pika aka That Rat *******

 

[-ACE-]

The thought of a master cc/grounded ASDI defensive options thread is pretty sick to me. After all, Ganon profits immensely from grabs, and deciding whether or not to grab in many micro-situations is a big part of playing Ganon. If you know that a cc grab isn't possible past a certain percent, it's good to know so you don't try lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So I was messing around with Falcon doing RLD to instant upairs to see where it would hit an opponent on stage. I wanted to try this with Ganon and see what would happen. Turns out if Ganon instantly upairs after he DJs from the RLD, he will land on the side platform on BF, but it won't auto-cancel, so you'll have to l-cancel it.

I call it the Pseudo-Aggressive Dash, or PAD for short

EDIT: I actually started the upair a little late in the video so it might actually be auto-cancelable if you are frame perfect. Making it AC would mean you could just dash forward and get back to center stage quicker.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Sick stuff. The pseudodash has a lot of application, when you think about it. You got your passive options, fading back into aerials. You got your aggressive options, doing uair and probably Nair on the platform. But those are so situational. And finally, you got your even more aggressive options, going for wavelands towards center stage off the platform. Just being able to get on the platform like that opens you up for shield drop options and stuff like that. Definitely a tech worth learning if you are willing to invest the time. Anyone reading this, don't let your biases for how you think Ganon should or shouldn't be played affect how you look at this new school technology.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Already been discovered, Locke

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCfu13snQEg&feature=youtu.be

Good find though, I'm glad to see others experimenting. I don't claim to have found it all, but if anyone needs any advice in regards to data while on the ledge, feel free to ask.

Either Spidey or I have the best ledge game by far and there's a reason why coffeeblack (a man with a ton of ganon practice) said he "used to think ganon was hopeless on the ledge before playing [me]." Step up the ledge game. If marth players can get on stage, we certainly can lol.

 

[Bwmat]

Lol ganon is great on ledge, I basically gravitate towards it while playing.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Dammit ah well. I felt like sharing it anyway.

 

[-ACE-]

I believe basically all ledge tricks apply to the plat as soon as you get to the plat via the pseudo method. You could "pseudo land" runoff dj bair someone on the plat, which is the same as ledgehop runoff dj bair onstage basically. Except now you can also drop lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah I forgot to mention runoff aerials as well. Refresh my memory, what other stages does pseudodash work? I'm also thinking there's wl side-b ledge cancel. That would be crazy to see actually utilized in a set lol.

Also, consider psuedoland wizard foot. I believe that would take you to the other platform, making it relatively safe in a number of situations. If you happen to hit it, you get stage control assuming mid to high percents. At low percents, depending on where they go, you get to fight from a slightly advantageous position. Assuming I'm correct about that landing on the other platform, I don't see many cons to abusing this option against certain habits.

 

[Swagic]

Not to alarm anybody, but I was just checking how famous certain members of the boards are (yeah, curiosity, it kills me) by taking a look at the Smash wiki (I know, somewhat useless), and I learned something.

They don't have Tipman OR Bushman listed under notable Ganons. Or like 9/10 of the other people here.
/off topic

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah that's because few people here are actually good yet. Emphasis on the yet, though.

The people of these boards, specifically Melee Ganon, enjoy thinking deeply about this game. Few public discussion boards on the various platforms of social media regarding specific characters have this much depth.

But making our thoughts count is an uphill battle. For what it's worth, I see potential in many of the players here, including myself. Faith and confidence.

 

[Swagic]

Oh, I know. I have faith in pretty much everyone on the boards. It was more shock that they don't have Tipman or Bushman listed, two of the Holy Trinity of Old School Ganon players (Eddie being the third).

 

[Fats_Ganon]

That instant uair thing is sick should be good to cover falcon and puff too

 

[Oldiz]

Though ganons ledge game might be great, I think it's really risky to gravitate towards. Ganons recovery is really bad, and once you are forced to up b, you might be dead. Center of stage is probably much better overall. The reason hbox ledgecamping is viable, is puffs inability to get gimped.

 

[Fats_Ganon]

Is there an API or a way to get raw posts extracted from this thread in a CSV or something of the like?

 

[-ACE-]

I feel extremely comfortable at ledge. They either give you room to get up or get invincible jabbed/grabbed. Getting off ledge is free. I only get punished when I try to go straight to punish him from a ledgedash or something.

 

[Oldiz]

Still, getting hit by the ledge is much worse than center, and being there limits your movement drastically in one direction.

 

[-ACE-]

Missing a regrab blows but the chaingrab is still the ****.

Ganon has more than enough ledge options to get away from heavy pressure, in almost any situation. It's extremely difficult to cover all his options.

 

[Oldiz]

Guess I need to practice my ledge game then.

Does a ledge dash get past a peach downsmash? Or should i just jab?

 

[-ACE-]

Guess I need to practice my ledge game then.

Does a ledge dash get past a peach downsmash? Or should i just jab?

Invincibility runs out right at the end of the ledgedash (ledgedash jab is INV if FP), so as soon as the waveland is done you're vulnerable. If she's that close you can definitely ledgehop jab her INV. ledgehop grab has to be FP but it's obviously good.

 

[-ACE-]

Empty RLD is still underused too. It's worth mastering RLD. a lot if people have a plan when Ganon is on ledge, and they maintain a certain position where they think they are ready for what you're about to do (they expect ledgedash or ledgejump usually). Do an RLD an they get confused and move or commit to something. Then you can ledgehop into something or get by her and take center stage, maybe even punish. Sometimes it's easy to forget how many options you have.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Though ganons ledge game might be great, I think it's really risky to gravitate towards. Ganons recovery is really bad, and once you are forced to up b, you might be dead. Center of stage is probably much better overall. The reason hbox ledgecamping is viable, is puffs inability to get gimped.

I understand where you're coming from. To some extent, I agree. But at the same time, the risk/reward is entirely dependent on how skillful you are at the ledge. You have the tools to make it work.

 

[Swagic]

You know... Most people see it as "if he makes it back I screwed up." Unless you're diving to the ledge (which, I'll admit, can have its place) most people aren't going to like you getting there.

 

[-ACE-]

Random thought, but fastfalling to ledge after a RLD can help the empty RLD mindgame, and is fully invincible. It's pretty freaking technical but RLD ff ledgegrab into another ledgehop or ledgedash option would be soooo fast and easily surprise people.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Guess I need to practice my ledge game then.

Does a ledge dash get past a peach downsmash? Or should i just jab?

Duuuuuude that's so punishable. RLD stomp is free as they come. And you know what's funny? Some peach players are so dumb that they will keep dsmashing by the ledge even after you stomp them!

I personally love when sheik / peach players spam dsmash by the ledge because stomp has never been so free.

To answer your question though, yea, you can waveland past a dsmash fully invincible, but like ace said, it runs out at the end of the waveland. If you're frame perfect on it, you can get a buffered pivot jab out one frame before invincibility ends. But ****, just RLD into stomp. Probably one of the most satisfying things to do to a peach.

And with respect to your above post about it being dangerous etc etc, sure it's dangerous, but nobody is giving up center stage here just to go to the ledge. Sometimes the best option when you're near the ledge is to grab it. Doing a frame perfect waveland into buffered roll will leave you invincible for the entirety of the roll until the end. Absolutely broken way to recover center if you don't overuse it.

 

[-ACE-]

^^You can gangster ledgehop grab sheiks spamming dsmash too. But I ****ing love stompz lmao

 

[-ACE-]

20GT TESTING

DAIR KO PERCENTAGES

NO DI/GOOD DI

Marth
YS: 80/85
PS: 84
FD: 86
BF: 90
FoD: 90
DL: 103/107

Fox
YS: 90/95
PS: 93
FD: 95
BF: 99
FoD: 99
DL: 112/116

Falco
YS: 97/102
PS: 100
FD: 102
BF: 106/111
FoD: 106
DL: 118/124

Falcon
YS: 106/113
PS: 110
FD: 112
BF: 116
FoD: 117
DL: 129/137

Edit: combined results.

 

[-ACE-]

Combined posts.

I am looking at PS slightly differently now, not gonna lie.

 

[Swagic]

I actually like PS a LOT more than FD. Ganon does not die off the top (Let me live in my perfect world where fox uthrow-uair doesn't exist), has a few platforms, and the transformations really aren't all that bad if you know how to use them.