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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I think I'm realizing how easily EVERYONE dies off the top on that stage....

PS, if someone tests any more characters, please take my info (as well as the sheik stuff from 2 days ago) and make a little chart, or at least another post putting it all together. That would be sick.
 
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tm

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Random thought, but fastfalling to ledge after a RLD can help the empty RLD mindgame, and is fully invincible. It's pretty freaking technical but RLD ff ledgegrab into another ledgehop or ledgedash option would be soooo fast and easily surprise people.
I always FF my RLD now. Trying to replace ledgehop regrab with RLD in most situations to be way less predictable on ledge
I decided this after finding out that people would (even without realizing it) react to the sound of my joystick clicking when I'm ledgedashing, knowing that THAT is when I'll come onstage, and not when I'm just refreshing inv with ledgehop regrab.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I always FF my RLD now. Trying to replace ledgehop regrab with RLD in most situations to be way less predictable on ledge
I decided this after finding out that people would (even without realizing it) react to the sound of my joystick clicking when I'm ledgedashing, knowing that THAT is when I'll come onstage, and not when I'm just refreshing inv with ledgehop regrab.
Lmao. Sometimes I'll ledgehop then wd back to ledge, just bc no one does it, sometimes it baits ppl or makes them commit.
 
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RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Rofl I like how Falcon and Falco are over 100 on pretty much all stages. Though it's really cool to see that Marth and Fox die before 100 on all stages but DL. I wonder what the same percentages are for Peach and Puff?
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
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I still only like PS vs sheik lmao. Vs fox, up throw up air more than negates the fact that stomp kills a little earlier IMO. Falcon getting stomped is legit though, landing a stomp on falcon can definitely be done, but I still wouldn't take him to a large horizontal stage like PS. Though it says something for banning FD, sure.

Falco and marth info is good, though. Landing a stomp on these characters is EZ$$. I'm wondering if I should stop banning PS vs falco now...
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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TGL tourney tonight, hopefully there's a stream (I'll post it if so) Me, linguini, and spider sense (wherethefukistipman) will be there. Gravy is showing up too.

I'm banning FD vs Falco primarily PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle despite all that work on the cg lol
 
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F. Stein

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Good Luck Ace, I'll be excited to see footage from you. Hopefully you just stomp :D pun intended.

I'm heading out to a regional event here in wyoming today too, seeing if i can rep ganon a little bit.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Good Luck Ace, I'll be excited to see footage from you. Hopefully you just stomp :D pun intended.

I'm heading out to a regional event here in wyoming today too, seeing if i can rep ganon a little bit.
Thanks man, and best of luck.

Got bored. More dair KO's.

NO DI/Good DI

Peach
YS: 72/76
PS: 75
FD: 78
BF: 81
FoD: 82
DL: 94/98

Jiggsly
YS: 54/58
PS: 57
FD: 59
BF: 62
FoD: 63
DL: 73/76

Dittos
YS: 92/97
PS: 96
FD: 98
BF: 102
FoD: 103
DL: 116/122
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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All combined.

Ganon STOMP KO percentages with no DI, plus the threshold for killing them with good DI on the shortest and tallest stages to notice the trend of how much good DI helps each character.

Peach
YS: 72/76
PS: 75
FD: 78
BF: 81
FoD: 82
DL: 94/98

Jiggsly
YS: 54/58
PS: 57
FD: 59
BF: 62
FoD: 63
DL: 73/76

Dittos
YS: 92/97
PS: 96
FD: 98
BF: 102
FoD: 103
DL: 116/122

Marth
YS: 80/85
PS: 84
FD: 86
BF: 90
FoD: 90
DL: 103/107

Fox
YS: 90/95
PS: 93
FD: 95
BF: 99
FoD: 99
DL: 112/116

Falco
YS: 97/102
PS: 100
FD: 102
BF: 106/111
FoD: 106
DL: 118/124

Falcon
YS: 106/113
PS: 110
FD: 112
BF: 116
FoD: 117
DL: 129/137

Sheik
YS: 83
PS: 87
FD: 89
BF: 93
FoD: 93
DL: 106
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Lost the closest set to Lex's peach ever and missed my chance to play spider sense. Peach did a dumb dsmash under the low plat on FoD game 3, and just as I was stomping FTW the platform rises and stops me from landing it on peach's head. Lost to a super campy Falco too. I'd rather play westballz. I need patience. My wins weren't notable.

I was ranked 11th out of 63. Didn't live up to that LOL

Spider sense's set with Lex was close but he 2-0'd him. Not a ton of stuff on stream.

Actually doubles was streamed, linguini and Blea somehow lost rofl.
 
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-ACE-

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I can take games off porkchops in serious matches (been within 1 hit of winning a serious friendly set twice), and I suck vs campy falcos. I know I'm being stupid but I can't help but blindly attack at some point. I'm so comfortable having an aggressive falco attack me, that when he doesn't, I'm like wtf. Got work to do.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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Good **** with all this 20GT info, Dave. Amazing work and a lot of knowledge here for when you should take em to stomp city.

Campy falco is definitely harder than aggro falco IMO because you can't just jump over lasers and punish bad approaches (not that it's really that simple, but you get the point).

However, I do find that campy falcos are easy to push towards the ledge. There's a nice little trick that works vs falcos under platforms who just won't ****ing approach and spam lasers. Shield the laser (go for PS like usual), full hop over the lasers, go over the platform, fast fall through the platform, and then hit them with a quick up air. Timing is tight, but very doable. If you time everything right, you'll get around the lasers, while the full hop will get you around a sh nair / dair from the bird. Very recently discovered this little trick and it's been working so far.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Dude the guy combos me to 100%, can't kill me, I touch him he dies. Then he combos me to 100% again. I kept it even and he never got above 80 lol
 

Technetium43

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Hey, do y'all have any advice on the ICs matchup with ganon? I've been using ganon as a counterpick in this matchup to my general comfort with him and the fact that I hate the marth/ICs matchup, and I want to make sure that I'm as good with the matchup as possible.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Good **** with all this 20GT info, Dave. Amazing work and a lot of knowledge here for when you should take em to stomp city.

Campy falco is definitely harder than aggro falco IMO because you can't just jump over lasers and punish bad approaches (not that it's really that simple, but you get the point).

However, I do find that campy falcos are easy to push towards the ledge. There's a nice little trick that works vs falcos under platforms who just won't ****ing approach and spam lasers. Shield the laser (go for PS like usual), full hop over the lasers, go over the platform, fast fall through the platform, and then hit them with a quick up air. Timing is tight, but very doable. If you time everything right, you'll get around the lasers, while the full hop will get you around a sh nair / dair from the bird. Very recently discovered this little trick and it's been working so far.
I like that idea a lot. I've thought about doing that with nair, up-b, and tomahawks as well. You could also do some waveland shenanigans into that.

Another thing you could try is fast falling through a platform and landing into cc jab. I've seen kage do this on stages that are linear like fd and pokemon, so I imagine it would be even more successful on a stage with platforms where you can be deceptive.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Hey, do y'all have any advice on the ICs matchup with ganon? I've been using ganon as a counterpick in this matchup to my general comfort with him and the fact that I hate the marth/ICs matchup, and I want to make sure that I'm as good with the matchup as possible.
Be more specific. What aspects of those matchups are you bothered by? More importantly, what do you personally struggle with in those matchups?
 

F. Stein

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So. Just got back. Placed third, fought hard but couldn't get past winner's semi finals. Found that I have good patience, had decent ledge game and punishes but in situations that I have no experience in I blank and do stupid stuff.

Recordings will be on YouTube next week, could use the help disecting and improving.

So 3Rd out of like 25 or 30. Good stuff that didn't get recorded: intense spacey matches, shirk stomps and a Marth fourstock on battlefield.

I had a Falco take me to yoshis, he got some good spikes but I beat him. Then he took me to PS and I chain grabbed him twice in neutral, resulting in me having a good lead off the second time (I dropped it, tech chased and picked it up again). Then he started to play campy and I ledgehogged until he approached and I did some good ledge tricks. Later in the day I had a shirk take me to FD to try and chain grab but I chained him instead. All in all in probably cg'ed five different sets so thanks so much for the training tips! They weren't like 0 to death chains but they were enough for me to follow up and get edge guards on.

I'm over my Falco hump. Sadly, I got beat out in Ganon ditto because I have no clue what to do. I froze up, messed up easy things and was confused. Worst part is that I know I could have beat the person that shut him down in grand finals. I'm just crap in the mirror match. So... can anyone educate me and walk me through the mirror match?

It was straight up bad because I kept getting double thunder punched after his arials and I kept losing trades in the air. How do I wreck this match up and make mirrors a worry of the past? Lol.

P.S. yes this was my first ditto ecperience. The guy wasn't from my area.
 

Oldiz

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Apr 15, 2015
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All these dair KO% and i'm stuck with the PAL stomp.
Thought I'd share a little trick I've found, which I'm not really sure if is new or not. Because ganons perfect waveland lets him slide a little bit beyond the landing lag, you can do a sliding smash turn. What this means is that you can waveland towards an edge, and fall off the other way. This might be the fastest option to grab ledge if you do a sh ff perfect waveland. This also lets you approach with ac bairs off platforms. Please check it out and share your thoughts, this might actually be a rather good technique imo.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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All these dair KO% and i'm stuck with the PAL stomp.
Thought I'd share a little trick I've found, which I'm not really sure if is new or not. Because ganons perfect waveland lets him slide a little bit beyond the landing lag, you can do a sliding smash turn. What this means is that you can waveland towards an edge, and fall off the other way. This might be the fastest option to grab ledge if you do a sh ff perfect waveland. This also lets you approach with ac bairs off platforms. Please check it out and share your thoughts, this might actually be a rather good technique imo.
That **** is HARD to do consistently lol
 

Oldiz

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I find it way easier than RLD, just need to know what range to do it. Its the same length as the PS platforms. You might be able to extend the range if you do waveland > PC drop. That'd be sick.
 
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-ACE-

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F. Stein F. Stein

Dittos.

DI everything away at low%, especially near center stage. Just straight away is normally fine, any form of away DI will prevent 2 hits.

When you're about to get uair'd, or uair scooped near ledge, don't survival DI until mid%. Up and away DI gets you out of double uair combos and gives you extra recovery options offstage (as opposed to away DI or down and away). Generally, when you're at mid% or in a situation where the best DI will depend on what move you get hit by, if you're good, you can hold up and away, and be ready to switch to survival DI if you see the fair coming or see him turn (bair incoming).

When you get stomped, DI towards center stage then survival DI the incoming fair. If you're stomped at center, DI behind him and at least force him to pivot if he wants the fair.

When you're recovering from far offstage, space your dj as precisely as possible to make your down-b safe from his punishment options. He can jump out and aerial, dj aerial, or even dj and up-B you (not many people do this). Sometimes the only way to be safe is to dj backwards before you down-b. Sometimes, you want more height to either give you more options or make a second WF possible, so down-b at the absolute peak of your dj. And other times, you just need to get close to stage, so you can wait a half second after its peak. MORAL: pay close attention to your dj so that you can space down-b's as precisely and safely as possible.

When you're recovering from below, you can reverse up-b semi-sweetspot the ledge, which makes the accuracy of landing a reverse uair a tiny bit more demanding. People just miss more often when you do this. Basically, always try to walltech into bair against the Tipman spike or techable bairs. It's hard to tech the tippy but it's definitely possible. Learn the delay (hitlag) for meteor cancelling Ganon's stomp.

Recovery is like a game of chicken. First person to commit (either the edgeguarder or the person recovering) usually fails. Don't allow for all options to be covered (example: don't get within range of ledgedrop uair aka spiderDrop, up-b before you allow yourself to drop that far). When you're close to the ledge, you can often space a fair as you're dropping to keep them at bay and then dj to ledge. You want to space the fair well enough so that he doesn't see the situation as a good uair opportunity. And always be ready to survival DI in case of a trade. Airdodge onstage when you can and it makes sense.

Uair scoops and pivot bairs are INSANELY GOOD. Fair is much better as a follow up than a neutral tool, although it can be used well in neutral when used wisely. Space the other Ganon out completely. And become extremely aggressive when you land the first hit.

From grab, always dthrow unless you can fthrow or bthrow them offstage at mid percent. Chaingrab into aerial and try to create an edgeguard opportunity.

Abuse uair and bair.
 
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F. Stein

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Thankyou so much Ace, that's the kind of homework I need this.

I'm a really grindy type of player so anything I can take to my mad scientist lab, hence Stein, will be abused until I incorporate it in tournament. If I'd thought to prepare for another ganon... ugh, lol. Anyways, that answers basically every question I had. You mention chaingrab though, my new favorite toy, I was unaware I could chaingrab him. Anyone know the %'s or does Magus have them in that old thread?

Chaingrabbing demoralizes so many people, I love it.

I think i'll practice my pivot Bair, maybe from dashdance. The few times I did dashdance against his ganon he was confused and overcommited into a punish. These tools will help me to stay off tilt in dittos.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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You can cg Ganon into mid 55's guaranteed. To get to the magus percent (what like 67%? Too lazy to check), they are either DI'ing full behind or full away, or you're just a God lol. Really hard to grab partial DI over 60%. But then it's bair/uair or ftilt, and advance immediately.

In general you want to AC your uairs and bairs, aka do the aerial asap AND fastfall asap, and be ready for when you land that uair, you have to delay your fastfall due to hitlag. Getting this fastfall is often the difference between NO follow-up, and getting another uair on him, which can be the stock.

Any time you are below 40% and you get jabbed, you could've grabbed him and taken his ****ing stock. Hold down and forward when you read his jab and you've got him.

Pressure him at ledge. Grab his ledgedash, his jab won't be INV lol. You can even grab against ledgehop options as a mixup. Know exactly where to space a bair that'll hit him out of his ledgedash. Put a hitbox or a grab on him as soon as his ledge INV runs out (requires a read so be selective) Don't get too close and get grabbed or fooled by a sneaky ledgedash or RLD fair.
 
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spider_sense

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I played like dookie at this past tournament (Got 5th) losing sets to Blea and Linguini (very close set last stock/high percent) I'm not too salty over the lost with Linguini than I am with Blea. I'm not making any progress with beating him; I seriously need a melee disk that's version 1.2 for the 20xx gamecube patch. I need to figure out how to shut Luigi down. I can't contest him when he's in the air and because his dair hitboxes have super priorities, though Linguini gave me some insight on how to deal with that situation; I also feel like my ground game and cc game is severly lacking in that mu (and just overall), so I really need to lab out all of Luigi's gimmicky bs and find a readily available counter.

Very sorry G-mains. I'll start the video archive thread this week. PROMISE!
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Random tips

A good pivot bair out of dash:

:GCR: (DASH)

:GCL: (Actual Pivot) Go all the way to the notch, then immediately....

:GCDL: (finishes pivot) then.....

:GCX: + :GCR: (Analog jump for approaching bair)

:GCA: (BAIR) easier than c-stick.

Optional :GCL: to commit less with the bair

:GCD: (fastfall) for auto cancel and hitting short characters. This is crucial.

^^ if you do this correctly (gravy method) you'll have another great tool for your neutral in dittos. But really any matchup. It works so well. Once you get it right it's so fast you can't even see the turn really.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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I played like dookie at this past tournament (Got 5th) losing sets to Blea and Linguini (very close set last stock/high percent) I'm not too salty over the lost with Linguini than I am with Blea. I'm not making any progress with beating him; I seriously need a melee disk that's version 1.2 for the 20xx gamecube patch. I need to figure out how to shut Luigi down. I can't contest him when he's in the air and because his dair hitboxes have super priorities, though Linguini gave me some insight on how to deal with that situation; I also feel like my ground game and cc game is severly lacking in that mu (and just overall), so I really need to lab out all of Luigi's gimmicky bs and find a readily available counter.

Very sorry G-mains. I'll start the video archive thread this week. PROMISE!
What exactly are you having problems with vs the green man? Any semi-recent vids of you vs blea that we can see and critique? I kept it respectable in our friendlies at evo, so I think I can help a bit if there's anything specific you're stuck on.
 

-ACE-

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Damn, 12 hours no post.

Anyone been ****ing with untechable stomp?

Works on fox no DI at 18%, I think Falco and falcon at 19%. It's a little easier on falcon because of his weird tumble. On full DI it isn't possible until mid 20's. Kind of like whether you dthrow Marth on BF at 0-70% he'll always tech before you can uair him. Marth is easy to untechable stomp. Side-b often leads into it at 0%.

The untechable stomp is extremely demanding on timing, but is a way to eliminate techchasing, and thus all chance, and guarantee an edgeguard opportunity.

So if you stomp falco on FD when he's at like 12%, ave he doesn't DI, you can untechable stomp him, then he'll probably full DI. Of course when he full DI's you have to hit the L-cancel and dash in his direction immediately, but by doing full DI they've drastically increased the window for the untechable stomp, so you can untechable stomp them AGAIN (and then fair). As if stomp, stomp, fair wasn't good enough, stomp, stomp, stomp, fair is possible. They just have to miss the DI on the first one.

Once you get used to timing this stomp you'll be able to respond to visual cues much sooner that let you know it's possible. You can untechable stomp anyone on a platform. It's free 20% damage plus follow-up.
 
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tm

Smash Ace
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Genesis pool :)
upload_2016-1-11_13-8-4.png

only know Cup from this thread (lol rip, ganons pitted against each other as usual) and Saca.
 

DCW

Smash Apprentice
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Damn, 12 hours no post.

Anyone been ****ing with untechable stomp?

Works on fox no DI at 18%, I think Falco and falcon at 19%. It's a little easier on falcon because of his weird tumble. On full DI it isn't possible until mid 20's. Kind of like whether you dthrow Marth on BF at 0-70% he'll always tech before you can uair him. Marth is easy to untechable stomp. Side-b often leads into it at 0%.

The untechable stomp is extremely demanding on timing, but is a way to eliminate techchasing, and thus all chance, and guarantee an edgeguard opportunity.

So if you stomp falco on FD when he's at like 12%, ave he doesn't DI, you can untechable stomp him, then he'll probably full DI. Of course when he full DI's you have to hit the L-cancel and dash in his direction immediately, but by doing full DI they've drastically increased the window for the untechable stomp, so you can untechable stomp them AGAIN (and then fair). As if stomp, stomp, fair wasn't good enough, stomp, stomp, stomp, fair is possible. They just have to miss the DI on the first one.

Once you get used to timing this stomp you'll be able to respond to visual cues much sooner that let you know it's possible. You can untechable stomp anyone on a platform. It's free 20% damage plus follow-up.
Is the idea that you just stomp right before they hit the ground, and for some glitchy reason they're sent up again before they get a chance to tech?

If so, that sounds like a good thing to practice in 20XX, since CPUs automatically tech when they get the chance.
 
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