Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

So basically hit them really hard so you're never in neutral?

Honestly, you're onto something.

If you'll watch this

http://youtu.be/aBtXRW0wPzE

M2K did not multiple 3-stock linguini because he's that much better. Linguini fell for a trap multiple times and his adaptations weren't quite quick enough (usually this is one of his big strengths, gotta keep in mind he's still rusty too).

M2K, despite being a top level player AND playing Ganons worst (tied) matchup (where sheik has a huge advantage over Ganon in neutral), always waits by the ledge and sees if linguini will mess up and get too close to the ledge. Because if he does, m2k can ledgehop punish into grab and SKIP ALL NEUTRAL GAME. Once he has the grab, true decision making is over. So him 0-deathing linguini, or any Ganon, shows nothing of m2k's true skill. It's all ABC combos into death.

Had linguini waited more and not ledge pressured quite as hard, he would have forced m2k to do some actual decision making. Against a sheik of this caliber, imagine yourself on FoD, and the amount if extra space you often have to stay away from the ledge because of the super low plats. That's about how much you need to respect her. The ledgehop fair's range is elusive. Don't allow sheiks to enter punish mode immediately. At least force them to have a decent neutral.

^^ good general mindset, matchup specifics aside.

Moral of the story: I'm not saying play lame, but don't fall for lame tricks.

Watch linguini vs kels from pound 4 (again if you've seen it before). It's one if the best sets ever recorded.

 

[Swagic]

So... In that case, after about 2 minutes in the lab, nair seems like a VERY underrated approach. It may not be out long, but it's his third fastest move (tied with dash attack). Plus it pops them into the air for a techchase or aerial attacks.

Edit: Jab (3 frame) and uair (6) are the only faster attacks. Sometimes that speed does make a difference, since no one expects Ganon to be that quick.

 

[-ACE-]

Nair is underused but don't expect much from it.

 

[Swagic]

Just as a tool to get out of neutral as quickly as possible, because that's the only thing Ganon is lacking.

 

[-ACE-]

Just as a tool to get out of neutral as quickly as possible, because that's the only thing Ganon is lacking.

Nair is a great combo tool, but don't expect much from neutral. Uair is insanely better.

 

[DCW]

I'm having my mind blown by techs you guys were discovering right around FC in 2012

What tech were they discovering?

So... In that case, after about 2 minutes in the lab, nair seems like a VERY underrated approach. It may not be out long, but it's his third fastest move (tied with dash attack). Plus it pops them into the air for a techchase or aerial attacks.

Edit: Jab (3 frame) and uair (6) are the only faster attacks. Sometimes that speed does make a difference, since no one expects Ganon to be that quick.

Don't forget dash attack, which is 7 frames (but only from run). Also, you need to remember that there are 6 frames of jumpsquat where Ganon is basically frozen--so add 6 to the frame length of any aerial to find out how long it will take to put out an aerial hitbox from the ground.

@spider_sense Are you still gonna do that video archive update? Hopefully so. I would really appreciate that. If not, maybe we could make it a communal effort.

 

[Swagic]

What tech were they discovering?



Don't forget dash attack, which is 7 frames (but only from run). Also, you need to remember that there are 6 frames of jumpsquat where Ganon is basically frozen--so add 6 to the frame length of any aerial to find out how long it will take to put out an aerial hitbox from the ground

It's a one frame difference between nair and uair, and both autocancel. I'm gonna start using it. Dash attack is WAY too easy to punish.

And the tech that I'm referring to is more the fact that Kage started using more advanced techs.

 

[DCW]

It's a one frame difference between nair and uair, and both autocancel. I'm gonna start using it. Dash attack is WAY too easy to punish.

And the tech that I'm referring to is more the fact that Kage started using more advanced techs.

I didn't mean to imply you should use dash often. Just that dash is as fast as nair. And yeah, I'll try to find uses for nair too.

 

[-ACE-]

Dash attack is awesome, don't doubt brothaz

 

[RedmanSSBM]

The only time I have found real use for nair in neutral is if you're playing vs a nair-happy Falcon and you nair before he does. Ganon's nair is a little longer range and you can get the second hit a lot of the time if they DI in.

Single hit nair in neutral on the other hand... hmm... Maybe if they don't CC it at low percents, it can be similar to Falcon's nair into grab combo, you just have to be a bit close range. Doing a late upair as Ganon is good for scooping people out from you, but I think experimenting with a late single-hit nair as Ganon can lead into some interesting things. I'm thinking single-hit nair into jab or ftilt, or even dtilt. Use those long limbs of Ganon.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how slick my movement was here? Lol, it's all I've got going for me

https://youtu.be/GdN2ZMdgKk4?t=318

Anything changed with Ganon since I've been out of the picture?
Jab > Dash attack = Tier list breaking technology.

 

[Diosama]

I always thought fastfalling t

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how slick my movement was here? Lol, it's all I've got going for me

https://youtu.be/GdN2ZMdgKk4?t=318

Anything changed with Ganon since I've been out of the picture?
Jab > Dash attack = Tier list breaking technology.

JUICIN' ON HIM

 

[Diosama]

Dash attack in neutral should be avoided imo, but it's a solid followup from light hits at low %. Nair is alright, although I would use it sparringly, surprise your enemy. Fadeback nair/nair in place doesn't sound half bad, especially against speedy characters.

And the tech that I'm referring to is more the fact that Kage started using more advanced techs.

Yeah I was playing Kage today in friendlies and he's been wavelanding a lot more. Not so much on the ground, but definitely on platforms. Was looking like Bizz most of the time with slide-off dairs lol

 

[Diosama]

Triple post, dgaf

Floridorfs, please tell me you guys are goin to Tampa Never Sleeps 6: https://www.facebook.com/events/581148785365608/

I got a buddy down there whom I'm visiting around this time. Melee and chill anyone?

 

[Swagic]

I didn't know that was happening, now that I do, I DEFINITELY want to go to that, though. Debating whether I should try for a room or just smash for 36 hours.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So basically hit them really hard so you're never in neutral?

You just have to deal with conditions where you aren't true combing but you reactively beat your opponent in a situation where they have have less options. Like when you have uaired a peach. Unless she has bad DI, you can't follow-up. But if you make the right play, you can keep control.

 

[-ACE-]

I might try to make that Tampa tourney

 

[Swagic]

Okay, I have another question- why do people think Ganon is so bad? He's a combination of all the top tiers (except maybe ICs)
He chain grabs like Sheik (a bit harder, though)
He punishes like Jigglypuff (but better options than just rest)
He has the power of Captain Falcon
He has the spacing of Marth (seriously, he can out-space Marth, the man whose sword reaches all the way across FD)
He has the recovery gimps of the spacies (Tipman/Eddie and Wizard's Foot ftw)
Plus he can survive for about a thousand years like Peach

Maybe his version can be a bit harder to use. But he has all the tools...
What's missing that's got Ganon locked in mid-low tier? Aside from a projectile.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Swagic You're oversimplifying Ganon's characteristics by comparing him to other characters where those other characters have some clear advantage over Ganon. Ganon's main weakness for being so bad is that he is slow in both speed and in putting his moves out. Just take a look at his frame data and compare it to Sheik's and try not to cry, cause it is really pathetic. You have to look more into the specific characteristics of why Ganon is bad before you can really see why Ganon is good.

 

[Swagic]

Well, that would basically mean that Ganon has no neutral. But doesn't he also have an easy time the second the game is out of neutral? The movement speed can be accomplished by giving him some ice skates, even if it isn't the perfect fluidity of Sheik or fox. So it seems like the main problem is getting that first hit out.

 

[-ACE-]

Jab > Dash attack = Tier list breaking technology.

ROFL that's been my combo for like 10 years.

Lots has been going on actually. Metagame discussion goes the **** down in this thread. **** so far out it make telescopes squint. You read my techchasing thread?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how slick my movement was here? Lol, it's all I've got going for me

https://youtu.be/GdN2ZMdgKk4?t=318

If only I could move like that. Ah well

I also had no idea you still played!

 

[-ACE-]

LOOOOL get bodied

 

[Swagic]

Maybe I just need to get all the way caught up in this thread. I'm only about two and a half years back now.

 

[-ACE-]

Maybe I just need to get all the way caught up in this thread. I'm only about two and a half years back now.

I often go back and read but never all of it. After you posted that quote by greenareeno I skimmed pages 187-225ish. I think it's hilarious randomly liking old posts, forcing the author to reflect lol.

 

[tm]

Well, that would basically mean that Ganon has no neutral. But doesn't he also have an easy time the second the game is out of neutral? The movement speed can be accomplished by giving him some ice skates, even if it isn't the perfect fluidity of Sheik or fox. So it seems like the main problem is getting that first hit out.

He has basically no combo game. Extremely few moves that come out quickly, and almost none of them combo into kill moves except for with specific bad DI (grab is an exception, but the range is laughable). He is a huge target, gets autocomboed very hard by most of the cast and edgeguarded extremely easily. As a generalization, his moves not only come out very slowly compared to other characters, but they also have way more lag after the move is over. Most knockdown situations that he creates can be escaped with no punish at all (or a very weak punish, such as dtilt, ftilt, or uair) on reaction. MUCH more than people realize. Many if not most of his strong punishes are extremely frame-tight or require a read on the opponent. His out-of-sheild options are among the slowest, most difficult / punishable, or worst in the game. Meanwhile he struggles to deal with top tiers heavily utilizing shield (requires heavy conditioning and sometimes slow reactions on the opponent's part).

tldr his neutral is very bad, his punish game is extremely hard if the opponent DIs and techs / no techs well, and his opponents' punishes on him are relatively very easy, even if he DIs and techs / no techs well.

 

[Swagic]

He has basically no combo game. Extremely few moves that come out quickly, and almost none of them combo into kill moves except for with specific bad DI (grab is an exception, but the range is laughable). He is a huge target, gets autocomboed very hard by most of the cast and edgeguarded extremely easily. As a generalization, his moves not only come out very slowly compared to other characters, but they also have way more lag after the move is over. Most knockdown situations that he creates can be escaped with no punish at all (or a very weak punish, such as dtilt, ftilt, or uair) on reaction. MUCH more than people realize. Many if not most of his strong punishes are extremely frame-tight or require a read on the opponent. His out-of-sheild options are among the slowest, most difficult / punishable, or worst in the game. Meanwhile he struggles to deal with top tiers heavily utilizing shield (requires heavy conditioning and sometimes slow reactions on the opponent's part).

tldr his neutral is very bad, his punish game is extremely hard if the opponent DIs and techs / no techs well, and his opponents' punishes on him are relatively very easy, even if he DIs and techs / no techs well.

This is exactly the type of analysis I was hoping for, thanks.

So the next step moving forward should be figuring out some way to deal with shields or get better at reads, right? I know this is a lot of theorycrafting, but that's usually the first step.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Ganon is bad in the areas people generally think about when they evaluate a character. Frame data sucks, no fast and aggressive oos options (what people think encompasses all oos options), big, poor recovery, etc.

But his redeemable qualities can be exploited pretty hard, I think.

His burst movement is good. Yes, I said it, Ganon is actually a pretty fast character in a lot of situations.

He is also heavy enough to cc and live to ridiculous percents. This gives him a lot of reactive options in neural depending on the matchup. His heavy weight is a blessing if you are good enough at SDI to get out of combos. But it's a curse if your combo DI sucks because then you get bodied.

His moves are slow, but they are big and cannot be CCd easily. Frame data is important, but there are other characteristics to evaluate in a move.

His oos aggressive options are slow because of his jumpsquat and slow aerials. However, his roll is extremely good. So I don't understand why people say he has no oos options when he has an insane roll that can escape a lot of pressure and give him center stage. And his aerials oos are good if someone doesn't stay on you with too much pressure.

And then you have edgeguards. Due to his great ledge options and hitboxes, Ganon is a pretty decent edgeguarder.

Overall, I see Ganon having a lot of evenish matchups with few heavily in his favor. He's kind of like an average Joe kind of guy. As long as you have a secondary for Sheik and fox in some occasions, Ganon can work I think. You just have to acknowledge his weaknesses and try to abuse his strengths. I think he requires a drastically different playstyle from most characters, but can do work.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Doing analysis of Kage and Bizzarro Flame now: www.twitch.tv/Skytch

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Guys, I love Ganondorf so much as a character. But what I am doing right now, is I am trying to figure out just what my "potential" is in the game with Captain Falcon. I want Ganondorf to do well in 2016. 2015 was a rather poor year for Ganon, and I want to help improve that over all. I will still do analysis despite the fact that I am playing Falcon primarily right now. This character has so much more going for it in the long run, I just know that we can show what it really takes to be the best with this character. Kage has had some struggles, but I believe he can absolutely go far in this year! Same with Bizzarro Flame and L Linguini . Please. I want you guys to show EVERYONE what potential Ganon has in the long run. I want to help everyone. I believe I know a lot about the game and how it works. I can help you to be a better Ganon.

 

[Diosama]

Are we forgetting that Ganon's frame data is nearly identical to Falcon?

 

[F. Stein]

Going to a melee and smash 4 tournament in 9 days for my area, playing only Ganondorf as far as I'm concerned so wish me luck ^^ looking at 15-30 participants probably. I know I'll be the only Ganon.

Anything I can do to be ready besides my daily tech practice?

 

[Diosama]

Going to a melee and smash 4 tournament in 9 days for my area, playing only Ganondorf as far as I'm concerned so wish me luck ^^ looking at 15-30 participants probably. I know I'll be the only Ganon.

Anything I can do to be ready besides my daily tech practice?

Study some videos, practice with a friend if you can

 

[-ACE-]

Are we forgetting that Ganon's frame data is nearly identical to Falcon?

His aerials all have less L-cancel lag, minus the dairs which have extra.

 

[DCW]

His aerials all have less L-cancel lag, minus the dairs which have extra.

I just checked, and actually Falcon's dair has less l-cancel lag than Ganon's. Ganon's dair:
Total: 44
Hit: 16-20
IASA: 38
Auto cancel: <3 36>
Landlag: 35
L canceled: 17

Falcon's dair:
Total: 44
Hit: 16-20
IASA: 38
Auto cancel: <3 36>
Landlag: 24
Lcanceled: 12

For my own education, I went through and compared each of Falcon's moves with Ganon's corresponding move. The main differences I noticed was in landing lag (like ACE said) and that Falcon's aerials, while they take the same amount of time, have more hitbox frames than Ganon's. This is true of nair, fair, and bair. For instance, Falcon's nair hits on frames 7-12 and 20-29, whereas Ganon's nair is active only on frames 7-8 and 16-17 (v1.0) or 20-21 (later versions).

This brings up a question: I agree with the consensus that nair isn't that great a move, but *why* do you guys think that is the case? In practice it hasn't worked out well for me, but I don't understand in theory why that would be the case, especially since Falcon's nair is so awesomely useful. Is it the different knockback? The difference in active frames? Or am I maybe missing something valuable by often forgetting about nair? (Except after a dthrow.)

This character has so much more going for it in the long run, I just know that we can show what it really takes to be the best with this character.

Do you mean that you think Ganon has more potential than Captain Falcon? If so, could you explain why? I love Ganon too, but I've never heard anyone claim he's better than Falcon. Maybe I misunderstood you.

I want you guys to show EVERYONE what potential Ganon has in the long run. I want to help everyone. I believe I know a lot about the game and how it works. I can help you to be a better Ganon.

I would love your help in improving my game. I got recording equipment for Christmas, as well as a copy of 20XXTE from a friend, so I hope to upload matches soon for criticism. Unfortunately TE is bugging out on me right now.

 

[Swagic]

It seems that the nair consensus (at least back in the day) was a combination of short hitboxes and strange knockback, although Kage decided it would be a good idea to incorporate the nair into more combos to screw up people's DI, and it seems like that's worked pretty well for him. It's a TERRIBLE wall move, and Ganon is somewhat known among the lower levels of non-Ganon players as a wall character.

I'd say Ganon has potential near Falcon, but they have to be played very differently. Falcon just needs to combo everything into a knee. Which brings up somethings else- Ganon's fair doesn't weaken. Ganon needs to bait the crap out of everyone, then punish HEAVILY. Not much potential for smash attacks in his game, but the increase in knockback (unless I'm imagining things) makes combos greater than 3 hits impossible (effectively, if not actually). Having the same frame data as falcon but with greater lag comes from having more power (if they're sent farther, you should have more time to get out lag anyways). He may be a bigger, heavier, slower, stronger Falcon, but he's a clone only in moveset, not really playstyle.

 

[DCW]

It seems that the nair consensus (at least back in the day) was a combination of short hitboxes and strange knockback, although Kage decided it would be a good idea to incorporate the nair into more combos to screw up people's DI, and it seems like that's worked pretty well for him. It's a TERRIBLE wall move, and Ganon is somewhat known among the lower levels of non-Ganon players as a wall character.

I'd say Ganon has potential near Falcon, but they have to be played very differently. Falcon just needs to combo everything into a knee. Which brings up somethings else- Ganon's fair doesn't weaken. Ganon needs to bait the crap out of everyone, then punish HEAVILY. Not much potential for smash attacks in his game, but the increase in knockback (unless I'm imagining things) makes combos greater than 3 hits impossible (effectively, if not actually). Having the same frame data as falcon but with greater lag comes from having more power (if they're sent farther, you should have more time to get out lag anyways). He may be a bigger, heavier, slower, stronger Falcon, but he's a clone only in moveset, not really playstyle.

I don't think it's the length of the nair hitbox that's the problem--it seems very close in length to Falcon's nair, if you look at the gifs. However, the hitbox at the tip of Ganon's foot seems much smaller. Overall, Ganon's nair hitbox is smaller than Falcon's (except at the hip, where Ganon's is a little bigger).

What makes nair a terrible walling move? Again, I'm not disagreeing with the consensus, more wondering why it's right. Next time I play, I'll try walling with nair and see if I find out the answer myself.

I do disagree that Ganon's almost as good as Falcon. I think Falcon's significantly better, though I'm sad to say it. That's why I was so surprised by Locke's comment. I'd love to be wrong, though!

 

[-ACE-]

D DCW lol yeah I know the frame data, I just meant both character's dairs have more lag than the rest of the aerials. I can't say Falcons aerials have less lag than Ganon's, because Falcon's dair is tied with all of Ganon's aerials except his own dair, so I mentioned that the dairs have extra lag.

 

[Swagic]

I can accept that Falcon is significantly better as they're played now, but the underlying question is again, why? Ganon has VERY similar frame data, and techchases give him a sizeable advantage against pretty much everyone (as long as he's chasing).

Nair is a bad wall because of the small forward hitbox and the short hitbox duration, compared to something like fair, bair, or even uair.

 

[DCW]

D DCW lol yeah I know the frame data, I just meant both character's dairs have more lag than the rest of the aerials. I can't say Falcons aerials have less lag than Ganon's, because Falcon's dair is tied with all of Ganon's aerials except his own dair, so I mentioned that the dairs have extra lag.

My B.

Nair is a bad wall because of the small forward hitbox and the short hitbox duration, compared to something like fair, bair, or even uair.

I guess that makes sense. Thanks.

I can accept that Falcon is significantly better as they're played now, but the underlying question is again, why? Ganon has VERY similar frame data, and techchases give him a sizeable advantage against pretty much everyone (as long as he's chasing).

I think it comes down to speed. Captain Falcon is one of the fastest characters in the game, Ganon one of the slowest. That applies to Ganon's ground movement, aerial movement, attack speed, techchasing, OOS game, and lack of combos. Falcon's better in all those areas because he's faster.

Think of it this way: if Captain Falcon were the same speed as Ganon, which would be better? I'd say Ganon. Or think of it another way: what if Ganon was as fast as Falcon? I think no one would question that Ganon was better. Speed is the key difference between them, IMO. That's why it's so important to speed Ganon up as much as possible--it opens up a little the possibilities that quicker characters take advantage of.