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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Swagic

Swagic

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DCW said:
I think it comes down to speed. Captain Falcon is one of the fastest characters in the game, Ganon one of the slowest. That applies to Ganon's ground movement, aerial movement, attack speed, techchasing, OOS game, and lack of combos. Falcon's better in all those areas because he's faster.

Think of it this way: if Captain Falcon were the same speed as Ganon, which would be better? I'd say Ganon. Or think of it another way: what if Ganon was as fast as Falcon? I think no one would question that Ganon was better. Speed is the key difference between them, IMO. That's why it's so important to speed Ganon up as much as possible--it opens up a little the possibilities that quicker characters take advantage of.
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If we're going by potential, Falcon wins. The problem is that his speed is almost uncontrollable, until you're hitting an M2K type level. Ganon can be sped up significantly, the problem is his neutral.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

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The only way to compare potential is through matchups imo, but generally speaking, the length and speed of Falcon's DD and his aerial mobility say a lot. For Falcon, nair leads into combos from neutral MUCH better, and the tipper nair is much more disjointed than Ganon's. The second hit of Ganon's nair is pretty useless, aside from some jank shield pressure. The first hit of Ganon's nair has a small disjoint, and has combo potential, but it's situational.
 
tm

tm

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Nobility said:
Are we forgetting that Ganon's frame data is nearly identical to Falcon?
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Lol take another look dude. Aerials aside from nair, yes. Grab, yes. Basically all other moves come out faster and end quicker. Let's not forget that they all combo into each other and that he has incredible horizotal and vertical speed

PSA at people talking about nair: falcon's nair is amazing for several reasons:
1. Ridiculous disjoint
2. Comes out pretty fast
3. Combos into a ton of stuff

Yes, ganon's nair is similar when you look at frame data. But you aren't looking at how fast he's traveling through the air, his preassumed jumpsquat frames, the knockback of the move, etc. So yes they are similar, but ganon's isn't huge, it doesn't come out as fast from the ground (not only in frames but also with respect to how fast he can close the gap between himself and his opponent), and it only combos with bad DI.

Anyone that thinks ganon is or should be just about as good or almost as good as falcon has a ton to learn about the game.
Falcon has easy kill setups on every character. He has amazing flowchart punishes as well as amazing mixup punishes / DI traps. He can position himself anywhere on the stage faster than basically every other character. He can reaction techchase every character with grab, stomp, and knee. His horizontal ground speed, rising jump speed, falling speed, horizontal aerial speed, and horizontal aerial drift are all great. Mobility and kill setups are 2 of the most rewarding character traits to have, and he has them out the ass. What about ganon?

Not saying ganon is **** and y'all should stop thinking that he can succeed, but cmon he's not even close to being as good as falcon
 
RedmanSSBM

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It seems I was misunderstood. I am not claiming that Ganon is a better character than Falcon haha. That would be absurd.

What I am saying is that Ganon has a lot of potential to do much better in tournaments this year if people step their game up more. A lot of people give Ganon a lot of **** and we really haven't been able to retaliate with several notable performances. It's kind of like I stated before that Ganon being put into Low Tier is mostly in part to the majorty of the community not seeing what a good Ganon can actually do, cause 2015 was mostly about "disrespect" and "style." I hated that Ganon was such a meme character for 2015 but that can definitely change for this year.

I believe if there is a Ganon that fully optimizes all of Ganon's tool and basically becomes the Axe of Ganondorf, he could easily be seen in high mid-tier. Something like above Doc but below Samus.
 
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-ACE-

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If Ganon had Falcons aerial mobility alone he'd be high tier. Saying Falcon's movement is superior is already the #1 understatement of 2016 lolol
 
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-ACE-

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Lucky could benefit from some porkchops vids lol (vs Ganon). Fox can be so much worse in that matchup.

Bizz needs to change a few edgeguarding/techchasing techniques and decisions imo. Get on that chaingrab too.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

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I'm hard on everyone, lol (including myself). He shouldn't care that much. Brutally honest advice is the best advice.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

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^^ that winter clothing

Edit: Ganon related.

You guys looked into dthrow into dtilt? Works on spacies roughly 90-110 I think. This could be an absolutely insane mixup if they are used to you ftilt'ing. Like as soon as you know they're used to dthrow ftilt, and they start to survival DI the ftilt, you can dtilt instead for a free fair. I think this is a very legitimate mixup that will make people think twice about how well they understand Ganon's options. Not to mention it eliminates techchasing (although situational).

iirc PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle has used it before
 
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PseudoTurtle

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-ACE- said:
^^ that winter clothing

Edit: Ganon related.

You guys looked into dthrow into dtilt? Works on spacies roughly 90-110 I think. This could be an absolutely insane mixup if they are used to you ftilt'ing. Like as soon as you know they're used to dthrow ftilt, and they start to survival DI the ftilt, you can dtilt instead for a free fair. I think this is a very legitimate mixup that will make people think twice about how well they understand Ganon's options. Not to mention it eliminates techchasing (although situational).

iirc PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle has used it before
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Uthrow into dtilt? Haven't experimented with it yet, but I'm not too sure if dtilt would lead into a fair at that % even with DI in. I could very well be wrong though. I usually do it at around 60% off of an upthrow (typically buffered).

I think the optimal punish off a grab at 90-110% would just be to chain grab lol, and I think that's doable for most at that %.

edit: up air is amazing in so many ways. Up air scoops are legit as ****, too. Up air is great to counter falcon nair and knee, marth fair / nair, fox anything, falco anything (even laser). Great OOS option, actually. Not sure why people say ganon is so terrible in shield when his roll is amazing and up air OOS will beat gimmicky pressure from most of the cast.
 
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That's what I do, is chaingrab. But if they survival DI the dtilt at 90ish I think you can fair? Definitely uair. FP fair should work tho. Maybe I'm wrong.

Edit: I checked and linguini's dtilt to fair on clay was at 93%. I bet the fair is good till 96% if I had to guess. After that, uair ea$y.
 
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@Bizzarro Flame you make edgeguarding decisions too soon. When using reverse uair, don't hit uair until you actually see him side-b. You're guessing when he'll side-b instead. Plenty of time to react.

Don't Yolo fairs offstage so much, I like the aggression, and it's sometimes necessary, but uair is so much better. You can hit him with a fullhop falling uair, or if you have time, you can shorthop or fullhop offstage and fastfall, ready to dj uair his dj side-b. You know he won't side-b until he's even with stage level or higher, so if you have time to ff the dj uair covers every option out of his dj. Basically uair>fair.

Chaingrab bro. Chaingrab (usually just 1-3 regrabs get them into position) them until a platform is in front of you then uthrow. If he DI's behind, REGRAB HIM (~50-90%), if he lands on the platform, uair him offstage and edgeguard him by reaction (positioning/timing the jump is everything so you can just hit C-up ASAP when you see him side-b).

Mike Haze and Lucky (one of my favorite foxes/players) are insanely good, but not so much vs Ganon. You could tune up your punish game and give them hell for a while imho.
 
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