Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

My biggest criticism of Kage v Moon was that Kage's edgeguards were just total poop. I asked him after the set was done why he didn't just do ledge-drop upairs and he said it's because he was nervous...

Dude I thought you had the warrior spirit. Practice that ish! It's free as **** vs Marth if you time it right, so as long as you practice it enough it should be a no-brainer. I couldn't help but cringe every time he missed any edgeguard opportunity really.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

So this is basically what I was talking about with c0ck shot up smash. Bl@ck Chris (shoutouts) picked the best option here because it was a guaranteed kill, even below 80%. I never really thought of tech chasing with up smash, but hell if it didn't work. I dare you guys to find another punish of equal commitment that could have killed at that %.

Let's start using this ****! It has to be ganon's strongest horizontal trajectory attack. People will also probably DI away too because they'll expect the upward hitbox.

 

[-ACE-]

Link to that set?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I want ganon's laugh on repeat for my ringtone. I'm gonna make a loop of that lol.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

More vids hype

I now have Ganon's taunt as my text message notification sound. I crack up every time I hear it lmao, too OP.

Here's all of Ganon's sounds in a zip file.

Boy you late, I had that since I got this phone months ago, I also have bizzarro saying " a fraud, a big fraud" on repeat as my best friends ringtone, keep up

 

[-ACE-]

That's wack dawg

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm thinking about taking a break. I'm starting to realize that the important things about Melee can't really be learned on your own. You need to play with people that are better than you enough to realize how to incorporate stuff. Recently, I convinced myself that wasn't true and that I could improve all on my own by just practicing tech skill and going to tournaments once a week. Maybe this works for some people because their learning style is more analytical. But for me, I've always learned through doing.

All I've been doing is relearning the same things every week because I don't have people to consistently practice with anymore to really commit the new things I learn to memory. You guys know what I mean? And I don't have the time at the moment to find or commit to playing with people for extended periods of time. It's sad, but I guess I've just been deluding myself into thinking I'm a type of person I'm not.

But I'm at the brink of breaking a few technical barriers that would really embellish my game. So I'm going to finish learning a few things. I'll attend BUST 3 in November and then be done with tournaments and smash media until January. Then I'm going to commit hardcore to playing with good players in my area for long hours. Like I don't think I've ever sat down and played smash all day. That's something I'd like to do at some point lol. When the spring semester starts, I'll probably have to take another hiatus. I might attend some tournaments for the beginning of it just to test my progress over winter break. We'll see.

I'll also probably take a break from posting/reading the forums. I like seeing all your ideas about the game, but I think it's time to develop my own ideas more free from any kind of influence. I guess I already have a lot of ideas, but I'd like them to be more pure I suppose.

 

[Superspright]

I realized probably too late that whatever fundamentals I want to have I should have practiced them until they became fundamentals and not just **** I do. Still working on breaking my bad habits. Wavelands were so addicting that I did them for no reason. lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Link to that set?

On the facebook group, the guy said it would be uploaded shortly to this link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqovIb4ryNdhOJ_Nw2_jxyw

 

[RedmanSSBM]

On the facebook group, the guy said it would be uploaded shortly to this link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqovIb4ryNdhOJ_Nw2_jxyw

I know the guy personally. He'll upload them on Friday, and if not then, then definitely this weekend. He's usually pretty busy with a job during the week. The Ganon vods are pretty solid and I'll post them here once they're up.

 

[tm]

Has anyone here put any real effort in z-psing? After switching back to sheik for certaing mus, I'm starting to get results with the tech and I've not even practiced it a lot yet. I really believe you can use it to shut a big part of falco's laser game. Ganon also has godlike shield for it I think and you guys seem keen on implementing all the possible techs, it might be worthwhile for you.

I practiced it for a while while it was still new. I think hitting hard shield + Z on the same frame (to increase the frame window for powershielding) is actually more difficult than just getting the regular powershield in the first place.

So personally I would forego using it in situations that the normal shield can potentially powershield (almost all)

That yes, but why wasn't he using invincible up-air on ledge to deal with his double-jump recovery? No one can really challenge the invincible ledge-drop uair. I use it against Marth all the time and it just doesn't fail. Even using it the cheap way and getting back on stage can tipman recoveries.

If you guys are such powershield addicts learn how to use it out of a pivot. I've said it numerous times, but if you're dashing away from the opponent you get a nice ~90 degree arc that covers your head to your knee (there is a running shield as well as a standing/crouching). The timing window won't be as strict albeit your momentum may confound the effort itself. I use it like a pseudo-reflector when I am practiced enough. I don't know the numbers but if you normally have 2-3 frames to ps a projectile (I add 1 frame for the distance from his shield to him). Then you probably get 4-6 frames doing it the other way. Basically I feel like it's twice as easy to do it that way, but if an opponent catches on (and they will if they are smart) they will begin firing them low, and this is not a solution for that. His legs are still too long for his shield. It makes powershielding Samus' missles too easy. I can follow up off of them.

Yeah I remember you saying that way back when and I remember it now and again. True ****

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Dont think Ive heard of z-psing can someone explain exactly how its done? I know that if you crouch and shield as early as the 4th frame your shield bubble pops up way lower making it possible to ps low projectiles that would once get blocked or deflected.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

We should Ganon RR with oven mitts on xD

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm starting to have an epiphany that if I really want to bring Ganon to his full potential, I'm going to have to be willing to spam some moves here and there that work really well and no feel guilty about it. Like, for example, I don't usually try to spam bair in neutral so much because it just feels kind of cheap to just spam a quick aerial over and over again, even if it proves to be lethal.

This is a philosophical approach to Ganon that I think others might need to take into consideration. If we really want to optimize Ganon, we're going to have to be willing to play super safe and super defensive at times just to get that win going. Risks are still important, but you could probably get a lot done with... just spamming bair rofl. I think I just need to look at it differently, and not think that it's a lame way to play, cause honestly it's Ganondorf and he's limited enough as is. If I get called lame as a result then whatever, I probably won and that's what matters in the end.

Just something I've been thinking about. It's all mentality and sometimes you just gotta loosen up.

 

[Kadano]

Dont think Ive heard of z-psing can someone explain exactly how its done? I know that if you crouch and shield as early as the 4th frame your shield bubble pops up way lower making it possible to ps low projectiles that would once get blocked or deflected.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=z+powershield

 

[spider_sense]

(A little off topic) Me beating westballz is nothing compared to Dennis showing up with two bad b!tches and wrecking his pool and then leaving. Now that's some Ganon ****.

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao. Florida tournament. RockCrock (who never plays) is highest placing Ganon because he knows how not to get DQ'd. Hilarious.

 

[spider_sense]

Lmao. Florida tournament. RockCrock (who never plays) is highest placing Ganon because he knows how not to get DQ'd. Hilarious.

Typical Rockcrock. He seriously needs to play more and yeah SFL flubbed mad hard with the DQ's (including me) lmao

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

How many people got dq'd?

 

[-ACE-]

Porkchops got dq'd from the whole tourney via hangover. Jason dq'd via oversleeping after SOMEHOW losing to MacD. That's all I know

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So I just had another thought recently about how I can play the game depending on if the match is even, I'm ahead, or I'm behind in stocks. I believe it is important to shift the way you play based off of how many stocks you have compared to your opponent, as Ganondorf can only do so much. This can apply to top-tiers like Fox, but since those characters are so good, they don't necessarily need to follow this guideline that Ganon needs to follow, though it can help enforce the strengths of those characters.

When Stocks Are Even

Here, it is very important that Ganondorf take control of the pace of the match, and it starts by controlling center stage. If you're able to control the center of the stage, then you can indirectly control the pace of the match. It's important to establish dominance right off the bat here so that you're in a good position to take your opponent's stock. Don't focus on if you lose a stock or if your opponent takes a stock, the main thing you should focus on is if you are in control or not, and maintaining that control, or finding a way to get it back. Center stage is just one key component of it, as a lot of your decisions should be based around it, or at least your end goal for the reason why you do a move in neutral, for example. So basically, play like you normally would while also keeping in mind of how you're controlling the stage, and what decisions you make in order to maintain that control. Think "King of the Hill."

When You're Ahead on Stocks

Once you establish a lead as Ganondorf, you have more direct control over the pace of the entire match, and it is imperative that you maintain this lead for as long as you can. In order to do this effectively, you need to play safe and you need to build walls that are hard for your opponent to get around. You basically want to be playing as "lame" as possible in order to make it very difficult for your opponent to get anything started so that they can make it back to even, or even try to gain a lead themselves. The best way to be safe as Ganon is to move around a lot, use platforms to your advantage (platform camping), do retreating aerials in most if not all instances, and shielding/CCing when you know your opponent is going to hit you.

This is your defensive mode where you're not going to commit to anything hard, you're not going to try to over-extend to read your opponent, and you're not going to put out a laggy move that your opponent can easily capitalize on. This means you're mostly going to be moving and using auto-canceled instant bairs, instant upairs, ftilts, wavelands (mostly wavelands away, but not giving up space), and jabs.

Grabbing in this instance is not a priority. Your opponent is already doing a lot of the work for you by having to approach you since you are in a lead. Going for grabs can definitely leave you open since the range is so small for it. If your opponent tries to pressure your shield, the easiest thing you can do here is wait for there to be a lapse in their pressure, and then just roll away and reset things back to neutral. You don't want to commit with fairs in neutral here unless you want to surprise your opponent.

Spacing is definitely key here,as the better spaced your moves are, the more distance your opponent has to travel to punish you, and the safer the move becomes. Even if your opponent decides to run up and shield, knowing that you'll bair him, as long as the bair is spaced well and you drift away, you're safer than if you were to drift into him and have the bair be badly spaced. If he tries to run in after you to grab you, you can jab or ftilt him to push him away again.

The biggest bait that you're going to want to look out for is when your opponent baits you into shielding and instead grabs you. Once your opponent gets a grab on you, you end up losing control, and getting it back can be difficult. If you're going to shield, you only need to shield for the amount of time that the shield proves to be useful. In other words, you do not want to be in your shield for too long, and you don't want to shield out of fear. When you're in the lead, you need to avoid getting grabbed and you need to avoid losing stage control or at least avoid your opponent getting through that wall you built. Ganon's buffer roll proves to be pretty useful for avoiding grabs as long as your opponent doesn't start reading it. Don't roll out of habit because you're afraid of getting grabbed, roll because you know it's the only fastest option in that situation to get out of being grabbed when your opponent commits to a grab.

When You're Behind on Stocks

This is where things can get pretty darn tricky for Ganon, as this is where his weaknesses as a character can really become exposed. I probably don't need to list the reasons why, as just mentioning his running speed is enough to understand why in this case. When you're behind as Ganon, you basically have no choice but to take some risks and gamble in order to get the match back to an even playing field. This is where the hard reads and heavy commitments really have to come into play in order for Ganon to keep up with the opponent. The fortunate thing is that if Ganon is successful with his reads, it pays off and it pays off quickly and without needing too many reads. It's like a 50/50 gamble almost. You either take risks and it gets you back in the game really quickly, or you take them and you end up more behind than you were before, but I believe that even if you fail at first with being risky, that you shouldn't just immediately go back to trying to play safe.

The problem with playing safe in this instance is that it's a different mentality between the players because of the stock situation where playing safe here is not going to be as effective as playing risky.

Let me break down the thoughts of both players when you try to play safe while you are ahead, as opposed to when you are behind:

Ahead:

• Opponent: "Crap I'm behind. He's making it really hard to get anything started since he's playing so safe. Each hit is putting me more behind... I'm definitely feeling pressured here."
• You: "I'm going to make it really hard for my opponent to start anything so that I can maintain this lead. I'm okay if I lose a stock."

Behind:

• Opponent: "He's playing safe and campy yet I'm the one who is ahead. There is very little pressure on me and I'm in a pretty comfortable spot."
• You: "Dang it I'm behind. Maybe if I try to play it as safe as possible, I can slowly get my way back to a lead, but then there's a lot of pressure on me, and if I mess up once I'll be even more behind."

So this is why playing safe when you're behind isn't as effective as when you're ahead. It's a mentality thing. When you're behind it's more likely that you'll need to do ballsy off-stage edgeguards that could potentially end your opponents stock early, but you can't lose confidence in doing the risky things because then you're more likely to mess them up and the risk won't be worth it. You have to practice doing this a lot to master it and you can easily practice this in friendlies and low-stakes money matches.

---

That's the gist of it in terms of where you are in a match. I feel these are very important principles to follow and it will make you successful with Ganon if you can implement them well into your gameplan.

 

[-ACE-]

Suicide KO's are underused in situations where you're ahead a stock or your percentage is is so high you're about to die and you can take a tough opponent's (character-wise) stock.

Better to be up 2 to 1 than 3 to 2 or 4/3.

Jason could have 2 stocked westballz fox had he dj up-b'd instead of whiff that suicide Tipman.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Jason could have 2 stocked westballz fox had he dj up-b'd instead of whiff that suicide Tipman.

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I watched that.

 

[-ACE-]

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I watched that.

Funny cause he ALWAYS does **** like that to me.

When you play a **** ton of dittos, there becomes a very precise metagame with edgeguarding. My down-b's have always usually been extremely safe vs another Ganon edgeguarding, as far as aerials. When the other Ganon dash jumps, dj's, and waits, you think the only thing he has left is up-b back to stage so he doesn't die, but he can easily up-b YOU and actually make it back, as soon as you do that down-b that you know is safe of all aerials.

 

[VegiLohrd]

So this guy claimed he was better than me now, and long story short I have a $10 mm against a Samus. I know basics like tilts and aerials beating missiles and spaced fair beating cc downsmash but do you guys have any pointers? I've never lost to the guy but it's been a really long time since I've played a competent samus

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

http://www.twitch.tv/bleagel0 stream blea vin

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

So this is basically what I was talking about with c0ck shot up smash. Bl@ck Chris (shoutouts) picked the best option here because it was a guaranteed kill, even below 80%. I never really thought of tech chasing with up smash, but hell if it didn't work. I dare you guys to find another punish of equal commitment that could have killed at that %.

Let's start using this ****! It has to be ganon's strongest horizontal trajectory attack. People will also probably DI away too because they'll expect the upward hitbox.

It's the 2nd strongest smash in the game after peach's dsmash

 

[PseudoTurtle]

So this guy claimed he was better than me now, and long story short I have a $10 mm against a Samus. I know basics like tilts and aerials beating missiles and spaced fair beating cc downsmash but do you guys have any pointers? I've never lost to the guy but it's been a really long time since I've played a competent samus

I have good info on the samus mu a few pages back, see if you can find it because I don't feel like repeating it word for word lol. But the basics are: watch out when you're attacking her shield because spot dodge into dsmash can mess you up if you're not careful. Also, up-b oos is good when you space like **** so don't do that.

As for missile evasion, just treat them like ****ty lasers. Use platforms and shield wisely. Shield missile into full hop up air is good. Wait to see what they do and punish accordingly.

Edge guarding is hard, I don't even try to very often, maybe twice per set when I have a pattern down. It's just too risky. Luckily, ganon just has to spam bair near the ledge and samus won't make it back on... lol. So that's nice. Good luck man, I think you got him. No reason he should be beating you all of a sudden if you've been beasting him before.

 

[-ACE-]

http://www.twitch.tv/bleagel0 stream blea vin

When Blea called me I was dead tired. Drank at the beach and **** yesterday, no way I was doing anything but going to sleep lol.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

yea both players really kept me adjusting my spacing so it was a helpful session. psuedo was on stream chat. i showed him my psuedo psuedodash.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

LOL -ACE- I thought you sounded drunk yesterday. That explains it.

Yea tip lmao pseudo pseudo dash. You were a little slow on the jump after the RLD, but your DI in was good. That pivot technique tho

 

[silentSWAG]

I think a ganon/falcon main can win a national. Although if ganon was Picolo then its clear he cant keep up with the sayins/space animals. But maybe if picolo after being reunited with kami... wtf am I talking about

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Bl@ckChris aka Monochrome vids:

 

[-ACE-]

Is he officially back to Ganon? Hope so.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Almost forgot my password...

Anyway, looks like my vids found their way here, so that's cool. Right now I'm just having more fun playing ganon, so that's what I did. My goal was to get 9th place and get back for the Panthers game that night. Stumbled upon second, and made it back just in time to buy beer with my new found cash and get my ass on the couch.

Theres probably some good content floating around in there, so I think they're worth a watch. I was having a good time haha. I've been doing better with ganon lately, but I've finally mained fox long enough to consider myself a dual main of fox and ganon.

But yeah uh spamming moves semi-safely seems to be the way I worked in these sets lol.

 

[-ACE-]

^^ shoutouts to being mad hard to tag

 

[Bwmat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLL2kPB1NI

This guy is really good, but I hate when I lose to him.(which is usually). Watch me throw away games 2 and 3 with silly flubs.

 

[-ACE-]

B Bwmat

2:48 make sure you're grabbing that the vast majority of the time.

4:50 stay conscious of your stage position. Sometimes you buffered rolls that put you into another bad situation instead of escaping.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

B Bwmat Dude when you get a dair off on a Falco at low percent and he pops up right in front of you, don't jab, just grab instead to continue the combo. He easily gets away when you jab because it doesn't even knock Falco down yet.

There were a lot of other things that you need to work on as well in the video that I saw. There just weren't many great decisions I was seeing from you in a lot of instances.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

B Bwmat

^ Was gonna say the same as ACE and Locke, Matt. Don't jab after a stomp unless it's going to cause knock-down (and even then, grab is likely still your best option) or if it sends them offstage without a double jump.

Yea, at 4:50, no reason to just give up center like that. Even in your shield, center stage is a powerful tool, def one of ganon's best.

Too much approaching. I like what you're doing with your shield; shield laser --> full hop, looking like linguini himself, but you start to approach with fair or whatever even though he hasn't shot a laser yet, so he stuffs you easily. React more and keep a plan B in mind when you do that full hop. If laser, double jump and retreat. If no laser, look for dash dances, etc, and then fair.

Powershield game on point tho