Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Bwmat]

Good luck enforcing that ban, for non externally obvious mods.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not a TO, so enforcing it isn't my issue. It's also very obvious to see whether something is an octagon or not....

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, it's dumb. I actually practice my tech skill, I don't need some scrub to pay a little more than me and have the same tech skill (luckily, this isn't really the case as the notches etc don't have much to do with shine pressure or wavelanding etc.).

This game is about your skill level and the tech skill barrier is a nice, easy way to filter out the trash and set the bar a little higher for the skill required to enter the game. Sorry if that sounds ****ty, but if you suck, you suck. Beat me with the tools provided.

Side note: I HATE when people look at their opponent's controller. I had a guy do this to me (he played peach) and I ended up just putting my sweatshirt over my controller. It sucked to play like that, but whatever, I won. I'm usually pretty nice when I play, but this guy had it coming lol, **** talk while you play is underrated I swear. Anyway, the point is that these things are not indicative of your actual level of skill. I actually READ my opponent's DI (imagine that ****).

 

[spider_sense]

Yea, it's dumb. I actually practice my tech skill, I don't need some scrub to pay a little more than me and have the same tech skill (luckily, this isn't really the case as the notches etc don't have much to do with shine pressure or wavelanding etc.).

This game is about your skill level and the tech skill barrier is a nice, easy way to filter out the trash and set the bar a little higher for the skill required to enter the game. Sorry if that sounds ****ty, but if you suck, you suck. Beat me with the tools provided.

Side note: I HATE when people look at their opponent's controller. I had a guy do this to me (he played peach) and I ended up just putting my sweatshirt over my controller. It sucked to play like that, but whatever, I won. I'm usually pretty nice when I play, but this guy had it coming lol, **** talk while you play is underrated I swear. Anyway, the point is that these things are not indicative of your actual level of skill. I actually READ my opponent's DI (imagine that ****).

Don't worry Joe, I'll wear shades when we play. #hungryboxin and if you try to put sweatshirt over your controller; I'll knock it out if out of yours hand. #tipmanstyle.

 

[tm]

I actually don't mind any of the above. I consider those things tools that are available to anyone, although I don't intend to ever take advantage of them at all.

 

[Bwmat]

I'm not a TO, so enforcing it isn't my issue. It's also very obvious to see whether something is an octagon or not....

I was thinking more about turbo/macros/etc

 

[spider_sense]

I actually don't mind any of the above. I consider those things tools that are available to anyone, although I don't intend to ever take advantage of them at all.

Nah, I can't condone cheating. That **** isn't really fair to anyone trying to play competitively.

 

[Bwmat]

I think his and your definitions of cheating don't quite match.

Personally, 'controller looking' doesn't really strike me as that big a deal, less scummy than wobbling LOL

 

[spider_sense]

I think his and your definitions of cheating don't quite match.

Personally, 'controller looking' doesn't really strike me as that big a deal, less scummy than wobbling LOL

Brah, that's cheating. If you can't rely on your own reactions, execution, character knowledge, decision making. Then you need to either step up your game or just quit. Besides, why would you even want to take your eyes off the screen while playing a match? That sounds super risky imho.

 

[-ACE-]

I actually don't mind any of the above. I consider those things tools that are available to anyone

You're condoning cutting notches into the controller to make technical **** easier? Would you be ok with someone cutting the holes for Y and B bigger, and putting in custom buttons that are bigger and ultimately closer together to make multi-shining easier? Before anyone says the ability to multi-shine doesn't make you win, that's beside the point. Finesse with the control stick is prominent skill in melee. I hope stuff like this doesn't become the norm.

I can see removing a spring in an R/L button, because those things vary a **** ton and often break or fail. So unless you'd want to enforce controller up-keep, seems worthless to ban.

Off topic, but I can even see using Adderall. Mainly because most of the people who have a prescription (and would clearly be allowed to use it) shouldn't have one, lol. No way to regulate that, and since the doctors "decide" who takes them and TO's don't, enforcing anything seems ridiculous.

^^ I think carving extra notches in very advantageous spots for the control stick is a much bigger issue than these.

Edit: controller looking translates to knowing your opponent's DI beforehand. Cheating all day, LOL. Why not have a small diagram on the corner of the screen highlighting their current control stick position? Either way gives Ganon a ****ing wobble on spacies lmao

 

[spider_sense]

You're condoning cutting notches into the controller to make technical **** easier? Would you be ok with someone cutting the holes for Y and B bigger, and putting in custom buttons that are bigger and ultimately closer together to make multi-shining easier? Before anyone says the ability to multi-shine doesn't make you win, that's beside the point. Finesse with the control stick is prominent skill in melee. I hope stuff like this doesn't become the norm.

I can see removing a spring in an R/L button, because those things vary a **** ton and often break or fail. So unless you'd want to enforce controller up-keep, seems worthless to ban.

Off topic, but I can even see using Adderall. Mainly because most of the people who have a prescription (and would clearly be allowed to use it) shouldn't have one, lol. No way to regulate that, and since the doctors "decide" who takes them and TO's don't, enforcing anything seems ridiculous.

^^ I think carving extra notches in very advantageous spots for the control stick is a much bigger issue than these.

Edit: controller looking translates to knowing your opponent's DI beforehand. Cheating all day, LOL. Why not have a small diagram on the corner of the screen highlighting their current control stick position? Either way gives Ganon a ****ing wobble on spacies lmao

People want all of the glory but don't want to put in the hard work that comes with it.

 

[tm]

Shrug. I use my opponent's body language and reactions to gauge their mood and exploit using tactics that frustrate them. Hard to draw a line between that kind of thing and looking at their controller. Plus, if they're looking at my controller then I can take advantage of that and DI the other way at the last second or distract them with something. If those things don't work and they're consistently getting the follow ups then I respect the skill that goes into that, and I'm just going to scoot my chair back a little or angle my body or controller.

As far as hardware mods go, it's a much stickier situation. Again though, it's hard to draw a line between carving a notch and swapping stickboxes or springs or modifying the sticks. I think there's significant risk and cost without much reward, so personally I don't mind but I could definitely see why others would want to ban that

 

[PseudoTurtle]

The key difference between monitoring someone's body language and looking at their control stick is that their body language is something they're putting out there - by reacting a certain way (frustration, head shaking, whatever), they essentially give you permission to take note of it. To some extent, it's something they can control.

Nobody is giving you permission to look at the control stick and its not like you can really hide it... Except maybe by covering it with a sweatshirt lol

 

[Bwmat]

Brah, that's cheating. If you can't rely on your own reactions, execution, character knowledge, decision making. Then you need to either step up your game or just quit. Besides, why would you even want to take your eyes off the screen while playing a match? That sounds super risky imho.

Honestly, I agree with the last part, can't imagine looking away and not messing up

 

[Bwmat]

If I were going to cheat, I'd mod my controller internally to add macros (auto multi-shine, pseudo-dash, shield drop, ect) and have it disabled until I input some uncommon button sequence (so even if someone calls me out on it, as long as I unplug the controller first, or turn it off with another sequence, I can pass them the controller and let them try it). I doubt I'd get caught. Wonder if anyone has ever done something like that?

Like, L + down does a shield drop (since I usually don't use L). If you made the initiating action similar to the real one, no one would notice even if they were looking at your hands while you cheat.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I got all them controllers for the low, free shipping, Hmu

 

[Divinokage]

rotfl this guys is actually legit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMKB7BdPcZQ

Not just any guy, one of my best friends and master. ^_^

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yea, it's dumb. I actually practice my tech skill, I don't need some scrub to pay a little more than me and have the same tech skill (luckily, this isn't really the case as the notches etc don't have much to do with shine pressure or wavelanding etc.).

I understand how it's disheartening as someone that also dedicates a lot of time to tech skill. But it does increase accessibility to competitive Melee, which is always a good thing.

So people are going nuts over these new custom controllers made by the frame guru himself (thread stickied in melee discussion), but some of the mods aren't kosher imo.

What do you guys think of notches being added to the octagonal opening the control stick pokes through? Like, primarily, notches at ESE and WSW for effortless perfect wavedashes. I'm not sure if I should say how badly I don't support this lol.

Is it truly effortless though? All this is doing is preventing your controller from misreading an input. It doesn't give you a larger window to hit these precise angles or auto correct you for missing an angle. I'll admit that it makes it easier to learn these angles, but it doesn't mean you don't have to practice them to learn them.

You guys also have to consider the scarcity of reliable controllers these days. Pros literally buy as many controllers as they can in search of the best controller. These controllers will be godsends to the entire community as good controllers become more rare.

The way I see it, it's like having stickers for finger placement on you're functional string instrument. That's about it.

 

[-ACE-]

The problem is, controllers don't misread inputs, and although the notches can help one to "learn" the angles, the player is not actually learning how to quickly put the stick there with the same controller everyone else uses.

If there are enough controllers to mod, there are enough controllers to use.

Stickers? REALLY? This physically guides you into place, no REAL accuracy needed.... Quite a big help compared to a sticker.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Ight, now what if, everybody who bought those controllers became a Ganon main, helped us pushed the meta, and got Ganon at a yung 9th on the tier list?

 

[-ACE-]

YvngFlameHoe not going to happen, lol.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

If it's not gonna happen then **** these controllers

 

[-ACE-]

LOL, I hope he can make bank off it.
I like the thought of custom controllers, just don't like the extra notches for reasons I don't need to repeat.

What's funny is that about 6-7 years ago I actually did carve out notches for perfect wavedashes in a spare front piece I had laying around and swapped it in. **** was ****ing broken. Max length wd every time, extremely easily. I messed around with it for a day and threw the front piece I had alerted away, putting the normal one back in. It seemed unethical and I felt like it could hinder my skill in the long run.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Do you still got it? Bring it to VS if you do, I wanna try it

 

[-ACE-]

Nah like I said I tossed it.

EDIT: Well I didn't even see initially that he'll be making controllers with notches for perfect shield drops. RIP melee

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

You at Str?

 

[-ACE-]

You at Str?

Nah.... Couldn't make it

 

[tauKhan]

The problem is, controllers don't misread inputs, and although the notches can help one to "learn" the angles, the player is not actually learning how to quickly put the stick there with the same controller everyone else uses.

I think I would agree if the controllers really were standard enough. But the control stick gates on brand new controllers aren't perfectly standard; especially the notches can have different values which makes a huge for shield dropping for instance. I have had a new controller that basically had shield drop notch on the left side (of course probably not as good as a custom made ones can be). My view is that it's better that we can customize our controllers ourselves instead of having to spend hundreds of dollars in the search for exceptionally good controllers, that break anyway at some point.

So modding can be looked at as an equalizing factor instead of unfair advantage, particularly if modded controllers become available for reasonable prices for the public, which looks like it might happen. Anyway there's at least good tutorials that teach you how to do it yourself.

 

[-ACE-]

I think I would agree if the controllers really were standard enough. But the control stick gates on brand new controllers aren't perfectly standard; especially the notches can have different values which makes a huge for shield dropping for instance. I have had a new controller that basically had shield drop notch on the left side (of course probably not as good as a custom made ones can be). My view is that it's better that we can customize our controllers ourselves instead of having to spend hundreds of dollars in the search for exceptionally good controllers, that break anyway at some point.

So modding can be looked at as an equalizing factor instead of unfair advantage, particularly if modded controllers become available for reasonable prices for the public, which looks like it might happen. Anyway there's at least good tutorials that teach you how to do it yourself.

Would you really spend hundreds of dollars before learning some precision? How many new white controllers do you think you would have to buy before you found one that was acceptable for tournament? The answer for me is 1 or 2 (I've owned plenty).

Taukhan, saying your current controller is not as good as your last one doesn't mean you alter it so that less skill is required for technicals. Sorry. It's been known for a long time that controllers vary.

All of this also has nothing to do with perfect wd notches.

Practice is the equalizing factor, not gaining an advantage that doesn't involve skill.

 

[tauKhan]

Let's get few things straight: I don't plan on modding my controller in the future (as of now). Interestingly enough, control stick precision is the one thing I truly excel at. In fact I sometimes get depressed at how bad firefox angles even the very top foxes use at tourneys.

Would you really spend hundreds of dollars before learning some precision? How many new white controllers do you think you would have to buy before you found one that was acceptable for tournament? The answer for me is 1 or 2 (I've owned plenty).

No, I'm not good enough that it would really matter that much to me. I just buy a new replacement controller when an old one breaks. If the replacement is really bad for back dashes, I might reject it; hasn't happened to me yet though.

However I think getting very good controller for top level play is hard and I totally understand the frustration m2k and now Armada experience.

It's been known for a long time that controllers vary.
...
not gaining an advantage that doesn't involve skill.

Don't you see that this is precisely my point: At the present some players gain advantage due to having better controller. Doesn't seem like that involves the skill you value so high. Yes, modding controllers makes many things easier, but at least everybody can start from the same level without investing a lot into finding controller.

Anyway in many situations you cannot rely on predetermined angles, so there's still a lot to be gained from having good precision even with some added notches.

All of this also has nothing to do with perfect wd notches.

That's mostly true. However notch values also alter how easy it's to input good wd angles.

 

[-ACE-]

That argument simply doesn't fly imo. The difference between two brand new white controllers is miniscule compared to the difference between a regular controller and one with added notches for wavedashes and shield drops. This should be extremely easy to understand.

And I know precision would still matter, hell, DI "still matters" when someone is looking at your ****ing controller as they throw you lol, means nothing.

 

[tauKhan]

That argument simply doesn't fly imo. The difference between two brand new white controllers is miniscule compared to the difference between a regular controller and one with added notches for wavedashes and shield drops. This should be extremely easy to understand.

Yeah it's sure true that the difference is a lot bigger. I just think modded controllers are way easier to obtain than great regular controllers, and it's thus reasonable to allow them for competitive play. If everyone can have basically same controller, it's not unfair. And in my opinion the differences between regular controllers are big enough to justify allowing modding. This is, of course, very debatable.

 

[-ACE-]

What percentage of brand new white controllers do you consider unusable for high level play?

 

[tauKhan]

I just realized that I have no firsthand experience on brand new jp whites. I may need to re-evaluate my stance. Also probably very few are unusable as such, just noticeably worse for some inputs.

 

[-ACE-]

RockCrock hype, making it out and beating drunk sloth.

spider_sense hype, making it out falling to harriet. Guy is crazy good, Jason's beaten him before tho

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I think the only real justifiable reason for modding your controller in such a way is to add notches to make SPECIFICALLY shield dropping easier. I can understand that there are some controllers out there that act really wonky when it comes to shield dropping and the range is super tight and inconsistent at times. Making it more consistent in that respect, since it IS a product of the actual controller itself and not the player's skill, is justifiable.

What I don't like is when people put in notches to make it easier to do recovery angles when recovering as space animals. One of my friends who plays Falco and Fox at times, added notches into the side of his controller stick area to make it easier to get "mangles" when recovering. He kept making it very apparent that he was using those notches the get the angles because he would loudly exclaim "DID YOU SEE THAT ANGLE?!" or "OOHHH I GOT THE ANGLE!" and was pretty consistent with it, while beforehand when he DIDN'T have notches in his controller he wasn't getting those angles like normal. This guy straight up printed a diagram of all the angles that Falco/Fox can do and matched it with his controller to get the perfect angle every time. I'm okay with it now because I get practice against those difficult angles, but if someone where to do that to me in tournament I would legit have a problem with it.

So yeah -ACE- I agree with you for the most part. If there is any modification to your controller that makes something easier for you to do and it is NOT a controller-only dependent problem (like shield dropping), then I lose a lot of respect for you and I WILL report you to the TO if I encounter someone like that in tournament.

 

[-ACE-]

I hear you. It is true that most older controllers don't shield drop as well as the newer white ones. I'm dealing with this right now actually. Shield drops to the right require wack accuracy on this thing. I'll be getting a new white one at some point. I can't justify adding a notch.

 

[tauKhan]

RedmanSSBM

That's interesting, I didn't think adding notches could help at firefox angles, since the angle you need to get always depends on your position. Did he add a lot off notches or what? Also hate that "mangle" hyping, I'm basically never impressed by firefox angles, it's not usually hard to get somewhat good sweet spots.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

RedmanSSBM

That's interesting, I didn't think adding notches could help at firefox angles, since the angle you need to get always depends on your position. Did he add a lot off notches or what? Also hate that "mangle" hyping, I'm basically never impressed by firefox angles, it's not usually hard to get somewhat good sweet spots.

He only added like one notch for each side, so he made like four notches, but each notch is in a position to get those really difficult angles that make Fox or Falco look like they'll just barely make it or maybe not make it. Those angles are really good because they make you second guess the distance and it is also easier to sweetspot at certain points. For example, my Falco friend would get an angle that is to the left and slightly up, like the most slight up he could possibly do when recovering, and it was low enough to where reacting to it would have been too slow, and trying to down angle ftilt it is hard because he ends up just above the ledge and he only needs to fast fall at that point. Those angles are super good, but putting in notches so that you get those angles every time you want to with virtually no effort from experience just doesn't sit right with me.

Here you can see the notches that he put into his controller. He posted this himself on our city's Smash facebook page.

 

[tauKhan]

Tbh that really looks like it would prevent me from using a pretty significant range of angles, I wouldn't probably like it at all. Then again I have never tested anything like that.

For example, my Falco friend would get an angle that is to the left and slightly up, like the most slight up he could possibly do when recovering, and it was low enough to where reacting to it would have been too slow, and trying to down angle ftilt it is hard because he ends up just above the ledge and he only needs to fast fall at that point.

If a spacie is going for the ledge with upb, I consider the angle bad if he goes so much above the ledge that he has time to ff. The spacies def shouldn't go above the ledge at all. Angle is good if it avoids moves that hit slightly below ground level.