Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/GCoJnc8YynM

@Bizzarro Flame The first 2 edgeguarding instances at the beginning of this set, and @2:22....

When you jab fox/falco out of their side-b, they don't have a jump, so there is no need to turn around after you jab them (so that your back is facing them) as it actually limits your options. As soon as you land it, sh without fastfall and just go deep and fair them (or dair when they are closer to the stage like you did once later in the set). Either one guarantees a KO whereas the first 5 seconds of thIs video shows where uair can go wrong. Facing your back to your opponent IS best if they have their jump though.

Random tip

 

[Coastward]

http://youtu.be/GCoJnc8YynM

@Bizzarro Flame The first 2 edgeguarding instances at the beginning of this set, and @2:22....

When you jab fox/falco out of their side-b, they don't have a jump, so there is no need to turn around after you jab them (so that your back is facing them) as it actually limits your options. As soon as you land it, sh without fastfall and just go deep and fair them (or dair when they are closer to the stage like you did once later in the set). Either one guarantees a KO whereas the first 5 seconds of thIs video shows where uair can go wrong. Facing your back to your opponent IS best if they have their jump though.

Random tip

that was actually something good to point out, you could even just ff uair them too if you're feeling edgy.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

http://youtu.be/GCoJnc8YynM

@Bizzarro Flame The first 2 edgeguarding instances at the beginning of this set, and @2:22....

When you jab fox/falco out of their side-b, they don't have a jump, so there is no need to turn around after you jab them (so that your back is facing them) as it actually limits your options. As soon as you land it, sh without fastfall and just go deep and fair them (or dair when they are closer to the stage like you did once later in the set). Either one guarantees a KO whereas the first 5 seconds of thIs video shows where uair can go wrong. Facing your back to your opponent IS best if they have their jump though.

Random tip

The only problem with this is that fox can choose to go low (like sweet spot levels- if you fair here, you SD). Usually it doesn't happen, but it can. With your back facing the ledge, you can act on reaction. If the fox goes too low, you double jump and ledge hog.

I usually face towards the stage in this scenario too, actually. However, I choose to bair rather than up air. Actually, If I ever go off stage, I almost always bair because it covers a more specific type of range, except vs falco because his recovery sucks.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yeah I was thinking of that @ -ACE- when I remember seeing Kage... or maybe it was Linguini... I don't remember. But when a spacie side-bs and you jab it, if they don't DI away far enough from the jab, then you can just run-off fair or stomp depending on what angle they're at. Their jump is gone so that's usually a free stock for you.

EDIT: Or you could turn around after the jab, WD to grab the ledge and do an eikel-drop or just let go of ledge and bair. That outta do the trick at certain heights as well.

 

[Coastward]

Yeah I was thinking of that @ -ACE- when I remember seeing Kage... or maybe it was Linguini... I don't remember. But when a spacie side-bs and you jab it, if they don't DI away far enough from the jab, then you can just run-off fair or stomp depending on what angle they're at. Their jump is gone so that's usually a free stock for you.

EDIT: Or you could turn around after the jab, WD to grab the ledge and do an eikel-drop or just let go of ledge and bair. That outta do the trick at certain heights as well.

but if you're bizz and you try to do the eikeldrop, you'll burn yourself from firefox and SD. Kappa

 

[-ACE-]

The only problem with this is that fox can choose to go low (like sweet spot levels- if you fair here, you SD). Usually it doesn't happen, but it can. With your back facing the ledge, you can act on reaction. If the fox goes too low, you double jump and ledge hog.

I usually face towards the stage in this scenario too, actually. However, I choose to bair rather than up air. Actually, If I ever go off stage, I almost always bair because it covers a more specific type of range, except vs falco because his recovery sucks.

He would have to DI (probably SDI) the jab very high to do that, which is easy to notice and hardly ever happens. It would be more likely to happen vs a high ftilt instead of a jab (at lower percents) since it doesn't have the added stun if the electricity... But hardly anyone thinks of high ftilt when the side-b comes right at Ganon's eye-level.

The VAST majority of the time, when you jab or ftilt a space animal offstage, by the time they are out of stun, they're below stage and can't sweetspot (free ko via fair/dair).

 

[tm]

If you commit to running offstage (facing away) before fox starts his upB, he can fall far enough to force you to SD to kill him or forfeit the edgeguard to upB back to stage (he will beat you back to ledge unless you fastfell (which means an aerial would make you SD) and upBd right away lol).

edit: and he can even punish your upB anyway, so you should probably just SD to kill him lol.

edit again: if you are a god, you can trade with his fire, and the knockback will be enough for you to recover. It's easist to trade with uair, but he can fade to stage first, making uair / bair hit him into the stage for a tech opportunity, forcing you to choose dair (which is harder to trade with). In this case I'd probably double jump dair to try to trade with him halfway back to the ledge while he's moving.

 

[-ACE-]

If he's going so low that you'll suicide, I wouldn't recommend going for it unless you're up a stock, lol (suicide ko's are actually very underused). Figured that was obvious. You shouldn't be going for it until you see their DI and you should have a good idea as to when their stun will end. Once he up-b's though, you need to already be approaching. I'm talking about hitting Fox/Falco out of their up-b before it takes flight.

http://youtu.be/EhM5dqGKvOs
15:25.... At high%, no DI, Fox is finally able out of stun at stage level. Usually he's lower. I would have full jump fair'd here but the uair trade worked fine.

 

[spider_sense]

I remember Rockcrock was the first to at least incorporate the run off fairs, then Linguini took it for his own and called it the "primitive" lol

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Can anybody explain to me, why in regular melee, my tech skill is always swagtastic, but when I play 20XX I can't even wavedash? Is it me? Is ganon just lacking in 20XX?

 

[Bwmat]

never noticed that myself.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I think its just me

 

[cptjiggles69]

If he's going so low that you'll suicide, I wouldn't recommend going for it unless you're up a stock, lol (suicide ko's are actually very underused). Figured that was obvious. You shouldn't be going for it until you see their DI and you should have a good idea as to when their stun will end. Once he up-b's though, you need to already be approaching. I'm talking about hitting Fox/Falco out of their up-b before it takes flight.

http://youtu.be/EhM5dqGKvOs
15:25.... At high%, no DI, Fox is finally able out of stun at stage level. Usually he's lower. I would have full jump fair'd here but the uair trade worked fine.

I figure sometimes its not worth it so i let them get back to stage and punish his landing. Note this is if they are up bing not side b. I guess it all depends on where everyone is positioned

 

[-ACE-]

Unless he goes so low that you'll suicide (and you're not up a stock, or same stocks and you're at very high%), just sh immediately, position yourself as you fall down, fair him. If he goes super low you can dj and airdodge onto stage before it's too late. Fact is, most people panic and up-b almost immediately. Not many people know the matchup, and if they did they wouldn't be side-b'ing right into where Ganon's jab comes out. Taking a free KO when it's handed to you IS worth it, I assure you.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I WAS SO ****ING CLOSE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1rIKqvVMS8&t=26m

Dave, you're right. You can probably just base the edge guard off of a reaction (i.e. if he goes too low, just air dodge to the stage). I almost always get the kill after the jab because, like you said, most players don't know the matchup, so they usually panic and mash up-b and end up doing it way too close to the stage, so free aerial of choice.

On another note, I'm not at Bizz level yet, but when I attempt to style, I kinda look like G. Vice. I miss that dude

 

[Coastward]

I WAS SO ****ING CLOSE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1rIKqvVMS8&t=26m

Dave, you're right. You can probably just base the edge guard off of a reaction (i.e. if he goes too low, just air dodge to the stage). I almost always get the kill after the jab because, like you said, most players don't know the matchup, so they usually panic and mash up-b and end up doing it way too close to the stage, so free aerial of choice.

On another note, I'm not at Bizz level yet, but when I attempt to style, I kinda look like G. Vice. I miss that dude

you must be one with the disrespect.

gonna try to get some swag kills tomorrow for lord @Bizzarro Flame

 

[tm]

If he's going so low that you'll suicide, I wouldn't recommend going for it unless you're up a stock, lol (suicide ko's are actually very underused). Figured that was obvious. You shouldn't be going for it until you see their DI and you should have a good idea as to when their stun will end. Once he up-b's though, you need to already be approaching. I'm talking about hitting Fox/Falco out of their up-b before it takes flight.

I mean, they can force you to SD for running off almost every time. Say they sideB into your jab at 0%, it doesn't matter when they get out of stun, they can fall too low for you to get without SDing if you run offstage. Unless you're talking about waiting until they start the upB before running offstage.

Unless he goes so low that you'll suicide (and you're not up a stock, or same stocks and you're at very high%), just sh immediately, position yourself as you fall down, fair him. If he goes super low you can dj and airdodge onto stage before it's too late. Fact is, most people panic and up-b almost immediately. Not many people know the matchup, and if they did they wouldn't be side-b'ing right into where Ganon's jab comes out. Taking a free KO when it's handed to you IS worth it, I assure you.

ok, gonna have to try to react fast enough to DJ + airdodge back onstage. Still sounds hard to be honest. Most foxes that I get that jab / ftilt on actually do react to me running off and go low, and I have had very little success with it.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Hey guys, you all have smart phones right? A little trick I'm going to try and you guys should as well is to use your calendar app on your phone to schedule 1 hour of you analyzing videos, reading smashboards posts, or whatever is online relating to getting better at melee, and then right after that, dedicate 1 hour to practicing by yourself, and trying some of those things that you saw in the videos. I suggest putting it on your calendar at the end of the day, as so not get in the way with other duties to do, and I also suggest doing this every day, as 2 hours dedicated to Melee improvement each day can be extremely helpful in the long run.

As for an added bonus for myself, I'm also gonna dedicate to reading for 30 minutes before I go to bed. It can be a fictional book or it can be "The Inner Game of Tennis." I feel like it's a good idea to read a good book before going to bed instead of being on the computer, so that you naturally get tired and aren't looking at a screen.

I feel like this can get you into the habit of having a good practice and improvement routine that will surely help in the long run, and with your phone to remind you, it can be a really useful tool. Just thought I'd share.

 

[Coastward]

Hey guys, you all have smart phones right? A little trick I'm going to try and you guys should as well is to use your calendar app on your phone to schedule 1 hour of you analyzing videos, reading smashboards posts, or whatever is online relating to getting better at melee, and then right after that, dedicate 1 hour to practicing by yourself, and trying some of those things that you saw in the videos. I suggest putting it on your calendar at the end of the day, as so not get in the way with other duties to do, and I also suggest doing this every day, as 2 hours dedicated to Melee improvement each day can be extremely helpful in the long run.

As for an added bonus for myself, I'm also gonna dedicate to reading for 30 minutes before I go to bed. It can be a fictional book or it can be "The Inner Game of Tennis." I feel like it's a good idea to read a good book before going to bed instead of being on the computer, so that you naturally get tired and aren't looking at a screen.

I feel like this can get you into the habit of having a good practice and improvement routine that will surely help in the long run, and with your phone to remind you, it can be a really useful tool. Just thought I'd share.

i wish i had the extra time to do this, school is so heavy on me right now.

im gonna go ham when summer rolls around though.

 

[-ACE-]

@ tm I'm telling you, just try it out (airdodging back onstage primarily since you say you've often been tricked into following him too low).

They should be dead going low also. Did I mention how important reaction time is? I just feel compelled to say something when I see most Ganon players throwing away gimme ko's.

Lol joe that is pretty hype. You just committed too early

 

[Linguini]

I remember Rockcrock was the first to at least incorporate the run off fairs, then Linguini took it for his own and called it the "primitive" lol

This is actually false, griceon.

I was the first ganon to use the run off fair consistently. That's why I named it the "primitive"

Rock was the first to do run off dairs tho. I called it "the rockrock" lol

 

[-ACE-]

I remember learning how low you could go with a fair from watching chaddddddd like forever ago. But he would sh offstage normally, not drop zone.

 

[Coastward]

damn i feel like a goddamn child reading all of this ganon history

*heart eye emoji*

 

[RedmanSSBM]

This is actually false, griceon.

I was the first ganon to use the run off fair consistently. That's why I named it the "primitive"

Rock was the first to do run off dairs tho. I called it "the rockrock" lol

So then what was a wall-jump tech fair called to you?

 

[-ACE-]

So then what was a wall-jump tech fair called to you?

This was so before that, pretty sure Emilio only called it that for a little bit.

Nothing is better than the kage bomb (suicide dair) lol.

 

[spider_sense]

This is actually false, griceon.

I was the first ganon to use the run off fair consistently. That's why I named it the "primitive"

Rock was the first to do run off dairs tho. I called it "the rockrock" lol

Meh got my aerials and origins confused then. lol

 

[Linguini]

@ RedmanSSBM this was before rockrock even started doing that...like 07 lmao.

lmfao kage bomb

 

[Renth]

Did someone say

KAGE BOMB?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBkfugYJuTg&t=6m30s

So, Dave, just to be clear- in this instance, if this MYSTERY ganon player decided to fair, he'd be dead, but he could've daired, right?

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah that's too low. Good example of what tm was saying. I'd honestly just stay on stage and dair him. When linguini turned dd/wd'd to turn around quickly, I would have already been jumping offstage ready to fair, but would have dj and airdodged back onstage in time to edgeguard from the stage. If he was going to sweetspot I'd uair, if he's at ko% and will overshoot the ledge, bair, and anything else dair.

Zidane knows this matchup REALLY well though and not many foxes are going to be as clever with their recoveries as he is.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBkfugYJuTg&t=6m30s

So, Dave, just to be clear- in this instance, if this MYSTERY ganon player decided to fair, he'd be dead, but he could've daired, right?

That position looks way more dair-able than it does look fair-able if you to ask me.

 

[-ACE-]

It even looked too low for dair tbh. Very good decision by Zidane. Maybe if you hit him with the last frame of dair hitbox (dair early as possible) and dj/up-b back it could make it, but I doubt it.

 

[Endllol]

How do you properly tipman spike? I have been just timing the uair without FF because when i do FF I will always cancel before the end of the animation. Is this correct or do I have to time it differently with a FF?

 

[Orah]

Continuing on the edge guarding foxes up-b when he's too low.
I know this option may seem too risky and I have yet to see anyone else really try it.
By taking advantage of Ganon's ridiculous ledge jump height.
1. Getting fox offstage with no jump in an up- b situation as stated above.
2. Grabbing ledge ASAP
3. Ledge jump drifting away from the stage dj wizard foot
4. Recover

I know the down b hitbox isn't the biggest but because of the upward diagonal angle fox has to go to get back to the stage and the downward diagonal of wizard foot Ganon and Fox are bound to converge. In this instance Ganon should atleast trade with Fox.
You wanna try to get fox spiked diagonally away from the stage so he can't tech. If you keep your dj and fully down b you should be able to recover on stage. If you trade you can still make it back with up-b

I know this can work really well against yoshi. Most likely Falco, mario, captain falcon, ganon, and maybe even Marth too. Shiek, Peach, and Link...not so much.
Sometimes I also face towards stage while standing close to the ledge as possible then full jump drifting backwards> dj > wizard foot> recover. @ PseudoTurtle made a video with a RLD dj wizard foot recovery edge guard but to me it makes Ganon too close to the stage to cover enough of an angle
This maybe situational but since Ganon is one of the few characters with a spike I felt like I should of think of viable ways of utilizing it. Whenever I see Ganon's use it for style they do it facing away from the stage which is super risky and easier to avoid.
Thats why I think if done in this way it forces the opponent to kill themselves by recovering into the spike or going the opposite direction. It forces them to pick their poison, get dumpstered or go kill yo self. Either way they're chances of making it are slim IMO. If yall disagree feel free to enlighten me

 

[Coastward]

yo, real talk.

if fox goes so low where dropping down with fair or dair is too risky, just grab ledge.

if they go too far when they try to avoid your aerial, they'll die cuz you grabbed ledge. if they still have enough height to get back to the lip of the stage, just time a getup attack to send the back and reset the situation, but have fox at a different height. the getup attack is kinda situational, but its still covering options i guess.

OR JUST GO BALLS DEEP AND DAIR THE ******

 

[-ACE-]

I approve of invincible getup attack in that situation. Or a well timed inv. Ledgehop uair. I am also that crazy guy that will say yolo and Kage bomb someone too lmao.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Orah I actually kind of like that idea of using the WF spike if you can consistently time it and aim it properly. I think it's a hard read though on what angle Fox has to go, because he could just go straight up and burn you or avoid you entirely. Also, I'm not sure if 100% of the time the WF will trade with the up-b if Fox has his burn hitbox on charging it. I want to run some tests though to see if this is the case.

 

[-ACE-]

How do you properly tipman spike? I have been just timing the uair without FF because when i do FF I will always cancel before the end of the animation. Is this correct or do I have to time it differently with a FF?

You can do a late fastfall and it'll work just fine, but not ff'ing is my go-to unless I have to do it quickly.

The reverse wizkick spike suggested can work, can trade, and can get you ko'd. Situational but I'm not going to say it can't work.

 

[Divinokage]

I bombed KJH to **** in teams last weekend, triple dair off-stage for the win. I can't wait until the vids are up, the room exploded lol.

 

[-ACE-]

I bombed KJH to **** in teams last weekend, triple dair off-stage for the win. I can't wait until the vids are up, the room exploded lol.

**** yes!! KAGE BOMB LMAO.

Time to start drinking.

Jk.











Already started.