Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

**** yes!! KAGE BOMB LMAO.

Time to start drinking.

Jk.











Already started.

IS THAT YOU @ n0ne ???

 

[n0ne]

IS THAT YOU @ n0ne ???

I do NOT kid about drinking

 

[-ACE-]

Lmfao. We don't play.

 

[n0ne]

You can do a late fastfall and it'll work just fine, but not ff'ing is my go-to unless I have to do it quickly.

The reverse wizkick spike suggested can work, can trade, and can get you ko'd. Situational but I'm not going to say it can't work.

That stream sucked. Desynched audio.

 

[-ACE-]

That stream sucked. Desynched audio.

What stream? Glad you're drinking also LOL

 

[n0ne]

The stream for No Mans Lan Kage and i were at on sunday

Www.twitch.tv/eveofficial

Imma stop drinkin till i start cryin

Edit oh i quoted u instead of @ Divinokage sorry

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Okay, so I ran some tests on just how reliable the WF spike to trade with Fox's up-b is.

Here's the good news: It's somewhat reliable, but you have to aim for Fox's head, and you don't have a lot of time either.

Now let me give you the details with a couple of screenshots I took.

As you can see here, this is just 2 frames before Ganon's WF will collide with Fox. Note that I am aimed for his head, as this is very important for being able to trade. If you're not able to aim specifically for the head, you will instead collide with Fox's up-b hitbox and he will hit you, resulting in stopping your WF and he just ends up burning you.

Now it's important to note that when Fox is up-bing, his fire hitbox doesn't start coming out until frame 20, and every even frame after that until about frame 36 or so, there will be another Firefox hitbox. It literally turns on and off every other frame, and this is the biggest reason why it can be unreliable. If you have your hurtbox in his up-b hitbox area when it is not active, then the next frame you will get caught and you will get burned.

Here's where hitting the head comes in nicely. If you aim for the head and collide with Fox on an:

• Even frame of his up-b: You will trade since the hitbox of your WF and the hitbox of his up-b collide each other's hurtboxes
• Odd frame of his up-b: You will beat his Firefox, not resulting in a trade at all since on an odd frame he has no up-b hitbox

It's not exactly a 50/50 chance to trade if you aim specifically for the head, but it comes rather close to that. You still have to remember that the end of your leg can just barely get caught in the up-b hitbox at the end, but that is a very rare spacing to have happen.

Here's what it looks like on the frame that you trade:

This is quite difficult to pull off because you have to put yourself in a position in order to land with the WF hitting the head, and WF has a long startup time, so you have very little leniency.

I think this can also trade if you aim for Fox's head when he starts launching from his Firefox, but that becomes incredibly difficult to do depending on what angle the Fox goes in.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Weekly Ganondorf Match Analysis: http://www.twitch.tv/skytch

 

[-ACE-]

Nice locke, about to look at your stream. How does the up-b hitbox differ while it's in flight?

 

[Divinokage]

The stream for No Mans Lan Kage and i were at on sunday

Www.twitch.tv/eveofficial

Imma stop drinkin till i start cryin

Edit oh i quoted u instead of @ Divinokage sorry

You really do everything to show off huh? lol

 

[-ACE-]

Never mind Locke I see the up-b was in flight. How about when the wizkick is reversed? My bro once ***** chudat spiking him twice in a match with reverse wizkick twice in a match like 8 years ago lol

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Why am I not getting alerts

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Never mind Locke I see the up-b was in flight. How about when the wizkick is reversed? My bro once ***** chudat spiking him twice in a match with reverse wizkick twice in a match like 8 years ago lol

I have a feeling that reverse WF spike doesn't really work unless you hit the head. It could possibly work if you do the full hop away at the ledge facing in toward the stage and you down-b to counter the first fox angle, but again, I feel like you just get burned so much easier than you would trade.

 

[Zigludo]

I'm a noob.

What's an RLD?

 

[tm]

RLD = Reverse Ledge Dash
from ledge: let go, double jump (holding towards stage), then right when you get above the stage airdodge (waveland) backwards, slide offstage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tACrsGqDbcM

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Here's my match analysis:
http://www.twitch.tv/skytch/b/639363148

I analyzed @Bizzarro Flame , @Эикельманн [РУС] , @ Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir , and @PseudoTurtle

 

[Zigludo]

RLD = Reverse Ledge Dash
from ledge: let go, double jump (holding towards stage), then right when you get above the stage airdodge (waveland) backwards, slide offstage.

Thanks man! I'm really just a beginner so I've only started to implement movement techniques involving airdodge as ledge options. Still paranoid about SD'ing like a scrub.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Here's my match analysis:
http://www.twitch.tv/skytch/b/639363148

I analyzed @Bizzarro Flame , @Эикельманн [РУС] , @ Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir , and @PseudoTurtle

Woot now I have a way to spend my evening!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Woah. So I found a new thing for myself to help with my punish game in general. Basically, when I want to do an immediate aerial right after my double jump, I use the control stick tap jump to DJ instead of using Y, that way I'm closer to frame perfect when I do a double-jump aerial.

Now I can do RLD upair into DJ bair and still be able to recover. Lookin like G. Vice over here.

I imagine this is also really useful on stage too, when you want to get that FP upair right when you double jump to get that combo, or do a FP DJ fair to catch your opponent in the tip. I hope I start using it more, cause my punish game will be a bit better when using double jumps now.

 

[AquaBoogie]

*OFF TOPIC*
Im streaming now with some friends, playin some of dat Ganondorf, check it out and follow us if you want
http://www.twitch.tv/thebrothersinharm

 

[Orah]

Okay, so I ran some tests on just how reliable the WF spike to trade with Fox's up-b is.

Here's the good news: It's somewhat reliable, but you have to aim for Fox's head, and you don't have a lot of time either.

Now let me give you the details with a couple of screenshots I took.

As you can see here, this is just 2 frames before Ganon's WF will collide with Fox. Note that I am aimed for his head, as this is very important for being able to trade. If you're not able to aim specifically for the head, you will instead collide with Fox's up-b hitbox and he will hit you, resulting in stopping your WF and he just ends up burning you.

Now it's important to note that when Fox is up-bing, his fire hitbox doesn't start coming out until frame 20, and every even frame after that until about frame 36 or so, there will be another Firefox hitbox. It literally turns on and off every other frame, and this is the biggest reason why it can be unreliable. If you have your hurtbox in his up-b hitbox area when it is not active, then the next frame you will get caught and you will get burned.

Here's where hitting the head comes in nicely. If you aim for the head and collide with Fox on an:

• Even frame of his up-b: You will trade since the hitbox of your WF and the hitbox of his up-b collide each other's hurtboxes
• Odd frame of his up-b: You will beat his Firefox, not resulting in a trade at all since on an odd frame he has no up-b hitbox

It's not exactly a 50/50 chance to trade if you aim specifically for the head, but it comes rather close to that. You still have to remember that the end of your leg can just barely get caught in the up-b hitbox at the end, but that is a very rare spacing to have happen.

Here's what it looks like on the frame that you trade:

This is quite difficult to pull off because you have to put yourself in a position in order to land with the WF hitting the head, and WF has a long startup time, so you have very little leniency.

I think this can also trade if you aim for Fox's head when he starts launching from his Firefox, but that becomes incredibly difficult to do depending on what angle the Fox goes in.

@ RedmanSSBM Love that frame by frame analysis! Yeah hitting the charging part can be tough but I try to get the reverse down b hitbox out right as Fox is starting to launch.
As far as Fox just going straight up to avoid it, I'd think that be an unnatural reaction for most fox players to aim it straight at Ganon in that situation.
If you jump out far enough with the ledge jump dj or the standing full jump dj you can catch Fox where he won't be close enough to go straight up and still fall close enough to the ledge. But yeah I probably should have mentioned that you want to catch them right when they launch, I've found that's when it works best.
You kinda just have to have the predetermination to do the technique and make them react to it
You want to start the ledge jump right as they're getting ready to start their up-b (make sure their jump is gone)
Drift away from the stage do the dj where Ganon backflips ( not the rollypolly one) into a wizard foot ( meanwhile they are charging)
by the time the wizard foot has started to plunge they should be launching. ( Ganon should hit fox like a drunk driver running a red light)
Now I don't have all the fancy frame data to support my claim but I'll be sure to tell you more when I learn about it. All I know is I have done it a few times in friendlies and it totally catches my opponent off guard.
I definitely know the spacing is tough to time perfectly against link's up b and failing will usually kill you so it's probably easier to just RLD up air him.
Shiek will usually make you miss every time and Peaches Umbrella beats Ganon's foot.
Other than that I've had success against Mario, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, and Ganon.
On paper I'd like to think if you knock Marth far away enough and he survival DI's to the top corner it will give you plenty of time to do it as well.

I'd also like to mention not to be predictable with it.
At the very least I think it could be a nice edge guard mix up to catch your opponent by surprise and demoralize them.

 

[Coastward]

got 2nd at my weekly again, wasnt feeling it unfortunately.

got some sick combo video stuff; utilt kill and dowm b spike, **** is so swag. did it for the bae @Bizzarro Flame

gonna get them gfycats up

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

http://showdown.gg/bizzarro-flames-introduction-to-ganondorf-advanced-techniques-guide/ this is amazing, us ganon's now have a swag bible

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ayyyyy. I'm in there! :D

 

[spider_sense]

Ayyyyy. I'm in there! :D

Of course you are silly.

 

[Coastward]

 

[-ACE-]

Yo. I need to get on Mr. Brandandorf's level of contributing to these boards, lmao.

Very nice coast, those never get old haha.

 

[spider_sense]

I'm pretty shocked at that too Dave, you do nothing but help the G-mains out. Btw, does anybody know a guaranteed combo into down-smash? I was thinking at around 10-15% dair should go into dsmash saving you the guess work (I.E techchasing) even if they ASDI or Smash DI you should be able to reach with pivot uair.

 

[spider_sense]

I'm pretty shocked at that too Dave, you do nothing but help the G-mains out. Btw, does anybody know a guaranteed combo into down-smash? I was thinking at around 10-15% dair should go into dsmash saving you the guess work (I.E techchasing) even if they ASDI or Smash DI you should be able to reach with pivot uair.

LOL @ Adam's popoff. Someone needs to gfycat that instead.

 

[-ACE-]

That dair to dsmash setup works. Now I feel like memorizing some % ranges lol. **** is like 60 damage.

 

[spider_sense]

That dair to dsmash setup works. Now I feel like memorizing some % ranges lol. **** is like 60 damage.

That's what I'm saying the damage output would be insane, and it'll give you a free follow up. I think we should bring back the "Ganon combo thread"

 

[-ACE-]

Someone should just make a new one imo.

 

[Coastward]

i think side b and dair are the only viable ways to combo into dsmash

youd probably need to get good reads on techs to get a dsmash.

 

[Zigludo]

I dunno about stomp > dsmash. Sure, the damage output is insane (43% assuming your moves are un-staled and you don't charge dsmash at all) but if you just dair again you get 42%. Although I guess dsmash has a certain knockback angle (over Ganon's head) that is preferable to dair (techchase / reset) for continuing your punish. But overall it seems like if they DI the stomp it would be really hard to secure the dsmash. I'll screw around in 20xx for a while and come back with some %s for Fox, Falco, CF and Sheik.

One more question though, and I don't think the bots will be helpful for this one: I heard a long, loooong time ago that Ganon's dsmash is unreliable in general because your opponent has a chance to avoid the second hit even if you land the first one. Is that only possible through crouch cancel, or would an airborne opponent also be able to escape the second hit?

 

[Coastward]

I dunno about stomp > dsmash. Sure, the damage output is insane (43% assuming your moves are un-staled and you don't charge dsmash at all) but if you just dair again you get 42%. Although I guess dsmash has a certain knockback angle (over Ganon's head) that is preferable to dair (techchase / reset) for continuing your punish. But overall it seems like if they DI the stomp it would be really hard to secure the dsmash. I'll screw around in 20xx for a while and come back with some %s for Fox, Falco, CF and Sheik.

One more question though, and I don't think the bots will be helpful for this one: I heard a long, loooong time ago that Ganon's dsmash is unreliable in general because your opponent has a chance to avoid the second hit even if you land the first one. Is that only possible through crouch cancel, or would an airborne opponent also be able to escape the second hit?

for the first point, (dair -> dair) < (dair -> dsmash -> dair)

if they don't DI the dair, you can get dsmash, and then if they dont DI the dsmash (because theyre scrubby), then you can get another dair. this is like super low % though.

and for the second part, they can only avoid the second hit if they crouch cancel the first hit because of its set knockback.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, unless you're hitting that second stomp perfectly so that the hit completely overlaps your opponent's window to tech (and you pop them up again), you only get the 42% damage and a difficult techchase opportunity.

With dsmash, you get a free uair, sometimes even grab. The uair also rewards you by putting your opponent in a disadvantageous position and gives you a certain degree of stage control, possibly an early edgeguard opportunity also.

It's well known that the second hit of dsmash can be avoided, but not so much when they're airborne. Also dsmash reaches pretty far, ASDI won't always be enough to get out of it for fastfallers at low%.

 

[Zigludo]

Thanks for the input. I think I was sort of in the wrong mindset when comparing the punishes because most of the theorycrafting-type stuff that I've read has been Gravy's walls of text about Falcon, and he practically categorizes reaction techchases as autocombos.... lol. Obviously that's not the case for Ganon and the pop-up hitbox would be preferable, especially if you can uair them offstage yeah.

It's well known that the second hit of dsmash can be avoided, but not so much when they're airborne. Also dsmash reaches pretty far, ASDI won't always be enough to get out of it for fastfallers at low%.

Could you explain what you mean by 'not so much when they're airborne'? Is it possible to DI away from the second hit, or SDI into the stage or something?

 

[-ACE-]

You can't SDI into the stage (and tech at least.... **** would be so broken) horizontal SDI gives you more distance though and I'm pretty sure they could escape. But really who SDI's dsmash? Lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Well dang. I guess I better start down-smashing after my low-percent dairs more, and THEN grab.

 

[-ACE-]

Not saying it's the best thing since the tipman spike, but it's worth looking into.