Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Sheik? Spacies? Falcon?

sheik and fox are absolutely horrible for ganondorf. falcon is the .5 that i mentioned. i think there are things we can do to make it closer.

i think ganondorf goes even with, slightly beats, or slightly loses to every other good character in the game. all of his other matchups are absolutely winnable at top level.

 

[Coastward]

sheik and fox are absolutely horrible for ganondorf. falcon is the .5 that i mentioned. i think there are things we can do to make it closer.

i think ganondorf goes even with, slightly beats, or slightly loses to every other good character in the game. all of his other matchups are absolutely winnable at top level.

i feel the exact same way about this

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm a bit more pessimistic about Falco but not to the point where I'd disagree with your general statements

 

[Divinokage]

Pretty sure most people agree that Ganon is at the top of the tiers. After all, he's a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%...

Lol but seriously, I think Ganondorf is hella unviable IF your opponent knows every trick in your bag of tricks... that's why Ganon players spend so much time practicing and researching movement tricks, you gotta use them to win neutral because unlike a good character you don't have any 'good' options to go for. You gotta fool your opponent

But on the other hand I think that since Ganondorf is fun as hell, Ganon players have advanced his metagame really far compared to how viable he is, and so I believe that a great Ganon player stands a chance even in 2015.
I mean generally speaking, in my experience there are more Ganon mains than Doc or Luigi or Puff players, and about equal amounts as Puff and Peach, despite the fact that those characters are much higher on the tier list. Ganon's popular because he's fun and satisfying to play

might get heat for this since I'm basically saying 'Ganon is booty' in the Ganon thread lol, but I love Ganon, can't stop playing him

At some point I just switch character because getting bodied for years isn't fun at all.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

@ iRanch vs i up next on stream

twitch.tv/gamingknights1

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Sheik, fox, falco. I refuse to believe falcon is a tough matchup for ganon.

Falco, though, I could see as somewhat even (that may be my .5), but you have to really know the matchup. I just have problems with the space animals in general.

Marth and peach are pretty even. IC is in ganon's favor. I feel like pika might actually be a pretty challenging matchup for ganon too beause he's so small.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

the mind**** is real with that avatar switch joe/dave. goddamn it.

 

[Divinokage]

Sheik, fox, falco. I refuse to believe falcon is a tough matchup for ganon.

Falco, though, I could see as somewhat even (that may be my .5), but you have to really know the matchup. I just have problems with the space animals in general.

Marth and peach are pretty even. IC is in ganon's favor. I feel like pika might actually be a pretty challenging matchup for ganon too beause he's so small.

Im actually starting to think Falcon at top level is harder for Ganon than spacies. lol. Falcon's punish on Ganon is ******** and I have done that matchup plenty of times as Falcon vs Ganons. It's just sooo easy. If you get picked up, even DI away will get you ****ed up. Spacies have to guess more where you're DIing in order to continue their strings.

 

[tm]

if you get ~4 reads in a row, that's death for your opponent.

..........lol

@ tm thanks for the info dump on bair vs fair. where did you obtain that information?

http://www.mediafire.com/download/htlbgyvihvur8zu/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.7k.xlsx
and this
http://imgur.com/CarD2u1

 

[Zigludo]

http://www.mediafire.com/download/htlbgyvihvur8zu/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.7k.xlsx
and this
http://imgur.com/CarD2u1

Holy crap, I cannot understand that spreadsheet at all o_O

You mean there isn't any kind of resource that lists those kind of stats for each hitbox, organized by character, the way that the frame data thread is? That entire guide is so neat and organized, I would like to help out with compiling that data and adding it into the Ganon frame data guide if that's something that needs to be done

 

[tm]

I mean, that spreadsheet is organized by character then hitbox, and includes all pertaining info. It's just kind of hard to read.
BK is base knockback and KG is knockback growth (on the first page). Characters are 2-character codes.
What guide are you referring to?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Im actually starting to think Falcon at top level is harder for Ganon than spacies. lol. Falcon's punish on Ganon is ******** and I have done that matchup plenty of times as Falcon vs Ganons. It's just sooo easy. If you get picked up, even DI away will get you ****ed up. Spacies have to guess more where you're DIing in order to continue their strings.

Money match! Your falcon, my ganon. While it is easy to combo ganon, I think it's still easy to combo falcon if you choose the right moves. I can beat any falcon that's around my level and a lot of them that are a level above me.

I mean, I guess that's why you said at the top level- I'm not there yet. But I really like the matchup! I ****ing hate falco though. Linguini, I see you lurking. I got f'd up by a falco that I used to beat yesterday and I'd appreciate it if you did some constructive criticism.

As soon as the vid gets uploaded.

Or Locke, your critique videos are always good. Props.

 

[iRanch]

Got two matches on stream today and decided to upload them myself before they disappear.

Ranch (Ganon) vs Ridz (Fox) - Winners R3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv7BLX_xoWg

This set ended up being 2-1, I still am not sure if I hate PS more than FD. I started falling apart slowly as the set progressed, but still managed to pull out the win. I don't think I understand this matchup well.

Ranch (Ganon) vs Lunacy | Eikelmann (Ganon) - Losers Quarters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54TQhSwzadA

Almost reverse 4 stock in the first game, Ganon dittos are dumb.

Overall a decent tournament, ended up beating a pretty good up and coming local Jiggly player who has a winning record against me and Moltov from Gainesville.

@ RedmanSSBM

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ iRanch Both videos added to the queue.

 

[Renth]

I like in @ RedmanSSBM 's quote, i'm not listed whenever I've invented quite a bit of Ganondorf technology over the years

-.-

 

[iRanch]

I like in @ RedmanSSBM 's quote, i'm not listed whenever I've invented quite a bit of Ganondorf technology over the years

-.-

Who are you?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Who are you?

i logged in just to say that this made me choke on my food.

 

[Coastward]

k so i have a bit of some theorycrafting that we can all do:

i was talking with kirbykaze about going offensive and defensive in neutral.

what do you guys tend to do when your opponent is dash dancing? for instance: you vs sheik on dreamland, sheik is dash dancing in front of you, what do you do?

another situation i want to bring up is what you do when you are cornered. lets say its vs fox on fountain: fox has you cornered by the ledge, whats your go to option?

i wanna see what your guys' mindsets are, and maybe implement some new things into my own gameplay.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

sheik and fox are absolutely horrible for ganondorf. falcon is the .5 that i mentioned. i think there are things we can do to make it closer.

i think ganondorf goes even with, slightly beats, or slightly loses to every other good character in the game. all of his other matchups are absolutely winnable at top level.

This is my opinion too. But people call me unreasonable for thinking this way.

k so i have a bit of some theorycrafting that we can all do:

i was talking with kirbykaze about going offensive and defensive in neutral.

what do you guys tend to do when your opponent is dash dancing? for instance: you vs sheik on dreamland, sheik is dash dancing in front of you, what do you do?

another situation i want to bring up is what you do when you are cornered. lets say its vs fox on fountain: fox has you cornered by the ledge, whats your go to option?

i wanna see what your guys' mindsets are, and maybe implement some new things into my own gameplay.

Idk about sheik dash dancing... doesn't seem to happen very often.

But in your fox example, I'd do one of two things.

1. Take the ledge
2. Run off double jump wair or wavelandwaveland mixup

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

we're only deemed unreasonable because nobody can prove our theories as correct yet. we're all playing ganondorf incorrectly.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I need an in depth description of what needs to be done in the falco match up, the "F" in florida, stands for falco

 

[Yort]

we're only deemed unreasonable because nobody can prove our theories as correct yet. we're all playing ganondorf incorrectly.

What do you mean by incorrectly in this context?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Good discussion points, coast.

First off, with a dash dance, I tend to want to close the space. Sometimes I'll run in and momentum cancel, then see what they do, other times I may Waveland. What's important is your percent because momentum cancel will also make you cc anything if you're hit. Typically if I'm at a higher percent, I won't really approach and try to make them come to me.

Second, if fox has you cornered, retreating fair off stage is amazing. You can then grab ledge and, in my experience, you're usually left with more options on the ledge than near it.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

What do you mean by incorrectly in this context?

well none of us are doing well, so i deem that as incorrectly. maybe we just haven't found the right way to play him yet.

 

[Divinokage]

well none of us are doing well, so i deem that as incorrectly. maybe we just haven't found the right way to play him yet.

Really none of us? I made 2k these last 2 months. lol.

K Ill MM your Ganon Pseudo. EZZZ.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Really none of us? I made 2k these last 2 months. lol.

K Ill MM your Ganon Pseudo. EZZZ.

who all have you beaten? it's not about the money.

 

[Zigludo]

what do you guys tend to do when your opponent is dash dancing? for instance: you vs sheik on dreamland, sheik is dash dancing in front of you, what do you do?

downB, they never see it coming ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Renth]

Megaman X Chill Penguin fast kill (WR)

Sorry for lag, I really need a new laptop. However, the video is hilarious and when I have a better streaming set up I will stream more regularly

LOL

http://www.twitch.tv/lunacy_renth/c/6379786

 

[Divinokage]

who all have you beaten? it's not about the money.

I guess my recent kills would be KJH, Duck, Weon-X. Also crushing toronto in teams without losing a game = doing very well. =D Im still confident I have the potential to beat anyone but at this point my meta is a little behind but not much at all. My powershielding is very good but not my shield dropping or tech skill.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I guess my recent kills would be KJH, Duck, Weon-X. Also crushing toronto in teams without losing a game = doing very well. =D Im still confident I have the potential to beat anyone but at this point my meta is a little behind but not much at all. My powershielding is very good but not my shield dropping or tech skill.

cool. who'd you lose to?

 

[Divinokage]

cool. who'd you lose to?

Umm.. Duck once, Vwins twice and n0ne again. ****ing Vwins.. man... tried so hard.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Guys, when any of you first started out, how long were you guys getting bopped, before you started to get really good?

 

[Divinokage]

About a year and a half competitively.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Bruh a whole year of Falco's? Good jesus

 

[Yort]

well none of us are doing well, so i deem that as incorrectly. maybe we just haven't found the right way to play him yet.

Do you think this other style would somehow be a more reaction based ganon? Or something that involves "guaranteed" but frame tight setups like the space animal chain-grab? Maybe we just need a gravy to actually work on optimizing specifics of this character instead of repeatedly practicing the stuff that has been known for years. I wonder.

Guys, when any of you first started out, how long were you guys getting bopped, before you started to get really good?

I'm not very good but I'll answer your question anyways. I got bopped by everyone for a good 2-3 months but I just kept getting bopped consistently and now I feel like I can compete with most lower-mid level players and have taken some sets off of some smash vets in my state. It depends on the level of your opponents though, and your ability to learn along with drive.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Umm.. Duck once, Vwins twice and n0ne again. ****ing Vwins.. man... tried so hard.

no falcon? why are you losing to none?

 

[Divinokage]

no falcon? why are you losing to none?

Mostly because his punish game is ********. If I dont kill him quickly then its hard to bring it back. I also underestimated him on my stage choices, I didnt think he was even more ridiculous on Yoshi's. I probably should have played a bigger stage to beat him in neutral.

Havent you faced Duck at all this weekend? I asked on FB and I know you've seen the msg but no response!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Mostly because his punish game is ********. If I dont kill him quickly then its hard to bring it back. I also underestimated him on my stage choices, I didnt think he was even more ridiculous on Yoshi's. I probably should have played a bigger stage to beat him in neutral.

i guess i just have too high of standards for myself and for my fellow ganondorf players.

 

[n0ne]

Mostly because his punish game is ********. If I dont kill him quickly then its hard to bring it back. I also underestimated him on my stage choices, I didnt think he was even more ridiculous on Yoshi's. I probably should have played a bigger stage to beat him in neutral.

Havent you faced Duck at all this weekend? I asked on FB and I know you've seen the msg but no response!

Uh lol

I dont abuse that grab to uthrow shiz tho, mostly cuz of that fact that i know when other falcons want to ONLY kill me via that means. Its just too lame.

I usually get things started like a real man with pressure strings or a read of some sort. Imo falcon vs dorf is cool but only if the falcon isnt lame.

I hate it when im facing a falcon that never approaches or is abusing raptor boost for example . Its kinda like a marth abusing dancing blade.

B moves = (b)ad moves imo

 

[-ACE-]

n0ne, if you could get the other falcons to also not uthrow > knee us, that'd be great. Lol.

I agree with Ian to an extent, but saying we're playing incorrectly is a stretch when basically everyone's fundamentals could get leagues better. There are still too many dropped edgeguards, a general lack of chaingrabbing, people going for extra damage instead of getting their opponent offstage, random bthrow/fthrows when dthrow would be best, shield DI is underused, combo DI hasn't been perfected, etc. I see lots of matches where a Ganon player barely loses, and it's not because his decision making or neutral game was insanely lacking, they just made mistakes like the ones I listed above. Had they not, they would have won. It's time that we started focusing on efficiency.

With edgeguarding, people usually just commit to something too soon, and create safe options for their opponent without realizing it. Proper edgeguarding in an art.