Renth
Smash Hero
I have the best Ganondorf technology. -ace- knows what's up
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
@
-ACE-
I grabbed him a lot while he was in the air, retreating or just trying to weave. I baited him into moving closer to me with my movement, or I would waveland toward him at the right moment in neutral and get a grab on him. I also in general had a pretty good idea when Puff would shield a lot, so I ended up grabbing him a bit when he got scared into his shield when he thought I was gonna throw out an aerial. I just kept moving around and I built a wall that he couldn't get through, and made use of my long hitboxes when she was in the air. Not to discredit him in any way, he's placed really well in many locals in our state for the past few months, he just has trouble with Falcon, Peach, and Marth. He's not like Hungrybox level, but just take my word for it that he's a tough one to beat.
It's simple really, just bait Puff into shielding (which she really shouldn't be doing in the first place) or grab her when she gets too close to you without throwing out a hitbox. You need to react to what she does and sometimes you just gotta go balls deep and go for the running grab in neutral. Now, if my Puff friend starts catching on to that and resting me when I miss a grab, then I'm gonna be much more lenient in when I grab. In the end, it's just another game of rock paper scissors.
-ACE-
I grabbed him a lot while he was in the air, retreating or just trying to weave. I baited him into moving closer to me with my movement, or I would waveland toward him at the right moment in neutral and get a grab on him. I also in general had a pretty good idea when Puff would shield a lot, so I ended up grabbing him a bit when he got scared into his shield when he thought I was gonna throw out an aerial. I just kept moving around and I built a wall that he couldn't get through, and made use of my long hitboxes when she was in the air. Not to discredit him in any way, he's placed really well in many locals in our state for the past few months, he just has trouble with Falcon, Peach, and Marth. He's not like Hungrybox level, but just take my word for it that he's a tough one to beat. It's simple really, just bait Puff into shielding (which she really shouldn't be doing in the first place) or grab her when she gets too close to you without throwing out a hitbox. You need to react to what she does and sometimes you just gotta go balls deep and go for the running grab in neutral. Now, if my Puff friend starts catching on to that and resting me when I miss a grab, then I'm gonna be much more lenient in when I grab. In the end, it's just another game of rock paper scissors.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I was really sad watching the Bizz vs Eikelman salty suite match. Actually, I was just disappointed by most of the salty suite over all. I was hype for Slox vs Tafo and Norcal vs Florida and both got taken out presumably because they weren't hype enough for the almighty VGBC stream.
Kryout
Smash Rookie
My first tournament is coming up this month (Olympus in SC). I'm not very familiar with too many match-ups other than Puff, which I actually feel kinda comfortable with. What's the best way to prepare for match-ups without having anyone to practice with?
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
watch videos, read the matchup threads here, and take notes.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
also i'd like to point out that i think it's equally important to watch videos of good players stomping on ****ty players because then you learn how to deal with janky **** like marth's spamming fsmash. you don't really learn how to deal with that stuff from watching really high level gameplay.
As mentioned before, watch games. If you find footage of players around your skill level, watch the **** out of it. See if you can get in contact with any players in your area (Facebook would be your best bet) and get some games in with them, but if you can't, no worries. Have a basic working knowledge of each matchups, what moves/combos kill Ganon and whatnot, but at the end of the day, a lot of it is stuff you just have to play to learn.
Your first tournament is a class, not a test. Show up early and get in as many games as you can, and try to meet people while you're at it.
If you have any other questions I'd be glad to answer them!
Coastward
Smash Lord
question for everyone, give me an answer for each line:
what are you thinking about when you're driving/walking/busing/flying/swimming to a tournament?
what are you thinking about when you win a match?
what are you thinking about when you lose a match?
what are you thinking about when you're leaving the tournament?
what are you thinking about when you're driving/walking/busing/flying/swimming to a tournament?
what are you thinking about when you win a match?
what are you thinking about when you lose a match?
what are you thinking about when you're leaving the tournament?
Heading to: omg so excited gonna bop everyone let's GOOOOOOOOOOOOO #Confident
Win a match: sweet, just gotta keep doing what I'm doing
Lose a match: why did I lose? Was it character choice, the way I was playing? What can I do to not lose next time.
Leaving: I try to reflect on my matches and try to figure out what I did well and what I need to improve on.
Usually I end up being hypercritical about my matches once I leave the tournament and constantly find myself thinking "I shouldn't have won that set, I need to work on my _____ I'm lucky my opponent didn't capitalize on my mistakes" for any close set that I won.
'I'm gonna get top 10!'
'yes, I can do this, just keep calm.'
'damnit, ganon sucks against <shiek/fox/falco/peach/marth/falcon>, I should switch to fox.' or '**** why did I SD so much'
'why did I switch to fox'
On the Subway: I generally think about matchups I have problems with, and what I'm going to do differently.
When I win: I try to think about what I did really well, and why my opponent lost to me.
When I lose: What they did to get most of their kills, what I did to get killed, and how I can avoid those specific threats in the future.
When I'm leaving the tournament: I generally think about whether or not I'm getting better.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
So I'm pretty much convinced now that the Sheik matchup is nigh-impossible to win as Ganon. I'm going to work on a Sheik of my own for this matchup if I encounter it in tournament.
After I Win: I feel great. I feel ready to move onto the next match, eagerly waiting for my next opponent.
After I Lose: I tend to get upset with myself, but I learn to shrug it off and move on afterwards. Usually playing friendlies helps with this.
Leaving the tournament: I reflect if I made my goals and what I can do in the next few weeks to improve myself.
I'll actually be at Olympus. I hope to meet you there
On the way: I think about a goal for myself. What place I want to make, how many MMs I want to win, something to shoot for.
After I Win: I feel great. I feel ready to move onto the next match, eagerly waiting for my next opponent.
After I Lose: I tend to get upset with myself, but I learn to shrug it off and move on afterwards. Usually playing friendlies helps with this.
Leaving the tournament: I reflect if I made my goals and what I can do in the next few weeks to improve myself.
Forgot about this gfycat when I was spamming earlier: http://gfycat.com/EllipticalSpecificFirebelliedtoad
that's what happens to me after 10 hours at a tournament...
that's what happens to me after 10 hours at a tournament...
Coastward
Smash Lord
what region are you?
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
lmao Bizzarroflame. Calling out Kage in an interview
Bizz's demeanor is like the funniest thing I've seen in smash in a long time.
Bizz's demeanor is like the funniest thing I've seen in smash in a long time.
Coastward
Smash Lord
oh ****, i might be moving there soon. thats hype.
Sheik is imo the main reason any Ganon looking to get competitive ought to pick up a secondary. Obviously we've seen good Ganons beat Sheik tons of times, and the chain grab we have certainly helps, but it's just so easy for Sheik to trash Ganon. I have a Falco for Vs. Sheik, which has brought me some success. Forcing the mirror is a good idea, though. What are your plans versus sheik, guys?
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Plans versus sheik? Should be perfecting one's punish game. What if when you grabbed sheik she magically just lost a stock? Well thats reality at top level play. Just because Ganon has to work a lot harder doesn't mean it's impossible. Sheik has it easy. So what. 0-deaths should go relatively back and forth if you aren't giving her a ton of openings. Just saying, I see ganons make basic mistakes when losing to sheiks. It takes a lot of practice and focus to make punishing sheik properly second nature, but once you do it changes things.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I also see lots of missed grab opportunities in general. Resist punishing with an aerial and just run up and grab her when you have an opportunity to cg, or platform techchase, and lean toward options that keep her above you.
/ramble
/ramble
BIGDADDYGANON
Smash Cadet
Speak that knowledge ace. I just had my best turnout at my local tourny by getting 4th place but I only lost to sheiks. I usually switch to falcon if I lose but my ganons better tho. And truthfully I like ganons movement better. I got scraped the first match but did better in my 2nd one. Maybe yall can drop some knowledge on me cause I'm really tired of losing to freaking shiek https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bvR5qOxDn-k
Coastward
Smash Lord
LOL JSEX SMILED AT YOU AFTER THE FIRST CHAINGRAB
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
I've always had a ton of trouble with the sheik matchup, but I've been getting better in recent times. My strat is to camp the hell out of the platforms. I NEVER EVER let a sheik take me to FD because, while ganon has a chain grab on sheik as well:
1) It's easier for sheik to get grabs
2) Sheik can duck / dsmash / dash attack under your grab AND jab
3) Sheik's chain grab is easier to do than ganon's and = death with minimal edge guarding work, while ganon's chain grab is not guaranteed to take the stock
I camp the platforms until the sheik jumps up or does something stupid and either stomp down or drop down with a bair. It's lame, yea, but I think it gives you a serious edge. Also, if sheik grabs you on a platform, DI off and the worst that can happen is a fair, which, at low percents, is much better than getting chain grabbed.
I had a busy day yesterday, but just got around to watching amsa vs. mango. What a boss. Really good stuff to him for making top 8 with a YOSHI. But, that tells me something. Unless you guys think the tier list should be changed to place yoshi above ganon, it just shows that it's possible to do it with ganon too- we just have to play better.
Speaking of yoshi, while I'm on the subject, the ledge stall that amsa does with the eggs is not safe (at least, not vs. ganon). If you space yourself properly from the ledge, you can low-angle ftilt through the eggs and if you can time it properly (a small frame window- pretty difficult), you'll hit the yoshi. This is great because to do that ledge stall, yoshi has to use his double jump. Translation: you take the double jump and therefore the stock.
Not that most of us are ever going to have a problem with a yoshi in tournament, but it's still good to know.
1) It's easier for sheik to get grabs
2) Sheik can duck / dsmash / dash attack under your grab AND jab
3) Sheik's chain grab is easier to do than ganon's and = death with minimal edge guarding work, while ganon's chain grab is not guaranteed to take the stock
I camp the platforms until the sheik jumps up or does something stupid and either stomp down or drop down with a bair. It's lame, yea, but I think it gives you a serious edge. Also, if sheik grabs you on a platform, DI off and the worst that can happen is a fair, which, at low percents, is much better than getting chain grabbed.
I had a busy day yesterday, but just got around to watching amsa vs. mango. What a boss. Really good stuff to him for making top 8 with a YOSHI. But, that tells me something. Unless you guys think the tier list should be changed to place yoshi above ganon, it just shows that it's possible to do it with ganon too- we just have to play better.
Speaking of yoshi, while I'm on the subject, the ledge stall that amsa does with the eggs is not safe (at least, not vs. ganon). If you space yourself properly from the ledge, you can low-angle ftilt through the eggs and if you can time it properly (a small frame window- pretty difficult), you'll hit the yoshi. This is great because to do that ledge stall, yoshi has to use his double jump. Translation: you take the double jump and therefore the stock.
Not that most of us are ever going to have a problem with a yoshi in tournament, but it's still good to know.
Coastward
Smash Lord
he didnt say that ganon should be above yoshi.
he implied that amsa's work ethic with a mid tier character shows that if he can do it with yoshi, then we can do it with ganon.
i was about to go on a rant but im gonna keep it to myself.
Coastward
Smash Lord
also, im gonna put all my training time into practicing my chaingrabs now. i think you guys should too.
i think this is the next step to evolving our meta and increasing the chances of ganondorf winning.
i think this is the next step to evolving our meta and increasing the chances of ganondorf winning.
PseudoTurtle
Smash Champion
Yup, exactly this.
I'd always been a fan of things like this- little tricks and whatnot that can give you the edge, but more and more I'm all about the fundamentals. Work on getting grabs and following up with a tech chase, reading your opponent's next move, edge guarding properly, etc. etc.
Until you're good at these things, I wouldn't even worry about chain grabbing and other more gimmicky moves. Set a goal for yourself: say "I'm good enough when I can make it into bracket at a national," or something like that. Once that happens, then you can really practice things like the chain grab. But in practice, I'd say solidify your fundamentals first.
That's just my opinion on the matter, I'd love for someone to prove me wrong and chain grab their way into top 8 lol.
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BIGDADDYGANON
Smash Cadet
Yeah Pseudo I feel the same way, if yoshi can why not us. Ganons punishes are too good not top in tourny. People hate on ganon and says he sucks but he still gives people problems. I play this falco, stricny3 and he beats me most the time but he still complains about the match up. We really do have to push his meta game to like GanonXX lvl
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Badass. Give up on the spacies for all I care but I really think Ganons should be lethal on all the other cg's. It means a lot and your confidence will soar when you have it mastered. It frustrates ppl to no end too lol.
Lmfao @ "this falco.... stricnyn3"
I used to play a lot with "some falco" named dr.peepee lmao
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Coastward
Smash Lord
well i mostly meant for solo practice when i have nothing else to do.
i really want to get down the spacie chaingrab. imagine seeing ganon 0-death everytime he gets a grab on fox. it'll be seen almost like a wobble LOL.
but i know it's near to impossible, i just really want to show the threat of this character.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
That last line is exactly my motivation. It's not every day you force a high level player to re-evaluate the Ganon matchup lol.
I think that as important as developing Ganon's punish game is, at least some attention ought to be given to Ganon's defensive game. We play a character who straight up dies to being knocked offstage at all, so it's essential to know when to spotdodge, when to shield, and when to back off. Shielddrop u-air, particularly, is an insane option that I don't see too often.
I've spent some time trying to polish my defensive options, and damn have I gotten better because of it.
I've spent some time trying to polish my defensive options, and damn have I gotten better because of it.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
You're right but the metagame has been becoming more and more defensive, especially in the last 3-5 years, than ever before. I think people are catching on that you have to play safe and respect your opponent and his character's abilities.
But as far as sheik goes, even Ganons that are used to the matchup (and play safe because of this) usually dont punish hard enough imo.
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Coastward
Smash Lord
real talk, apex has me hyped and im surging with energy.
i've never wanted to get better at melee so badly in my life.
i've never wanted to get better at melee so badly in my life.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
With all this Ganon meta talk I thought I'd give an update on how my wavelanding antics are coming along.
I'm definitely doing it a lot in friendlies. Maybe a little too much, maybe not enough, it's hard to tell at this stage, but I do know that I'm at least actually using it vs other people, and there have been numerous times where it's really worked. I'm still inconsistent with it in game, so I just gotta practice more by myself to get this down 100%. I even short-hop waveland between stocks in friendlies now haha it's really fun. I feel like I can definitely take this further and use it to really surprise people and throw them off. I don't think it will be metagame changing, but I do think it will be far enough out of the ordinary for people to take notice.
I also agree with @
PseudoTurtle
about CGing spacies. It really is just better to work on your fundamentals first of all things before you think about mastering the CG on spacies. What's the point of mastering the CG if you can't even get a grab on them in the first place? You gotta have a good enough neutral game for you to even get to that point.
I'm also really using upair a lot more than I did like a month ago. I'm using it more to threaten space vs my opponent, keep them above me, or when I'm retreating and I do a late upair into something. The range on that move is awesome and I love using this move. Also, I'm starting to get into the habit of side-bing after I land a dair on my opponent at low-percent to catch them not teching or rolling away, and pop them up for a regrab. Side-b has made my punish game a whole lot better vs spacies, though it still does involve some guesswork. Usually people will either want to get away from you or get behind you, depending on stage position. I've been really on point with this as I can usually tell when a spacie is gonna tech away from me and I get the fair. Hell, I might even start going for the regrab.
I'm definitely doing it a lot in friendlies. Maybe a little too much, maybe not enough, it's hard to tell at this stage, but I do know that I'm at least actually using it vs other people, and there have been numerous times where it's really worked. I'm still inconsistent with it in game, so I just gotta practice more by myself to get this down 100%. I even short-hop waveland between stocks in friendlies now haha it's really fun. I feel like I can definitely take this further and use it to really surprise people and throw them off. I don't think it will be metagame changing, but I do think it will be far enough out of the ordinary for people to take notice.
I also agree with @
PseudoTurtle
about CGing spacies. It really is just better to work on your fundamentals first of all things before you think about mastering the CG on spacies. What's the point of mastering the CG if you can't even get a grab on them in the first place? You gotta have a good enough neutral game for you to even get to that point. I'm also really using upair a lot more than I did like a month ago. I'm using it more to threaten space vs my opponent, keep them above me, or when I'm retreating and I do a late upair into something. The range on that move is awesome and I love using this move. Also, I'm starting to get into the habit of side-bing after I land a dair on my opponent at low-percent to catch them not teching or rolling away, and pop them up for a regrab. Side-b has made my punish game a whole lot better vs spacies, though it still does involve some guesswork. Usually people will either want to get away from you or get behind you, depending on stage position. I've been really on point with this as I can usually tell when a spacie is gonna tech away from me and I get the fair. Hell, I might even start going for the regrab.
X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I agree with Clocked on the defensive game. Shield drops and proper ASDI should be used more often by all Ganons. Imagine spacies dair shining your shield only to be grabbed just because of the slightest mis-spacing.
The other thing I think Ganons should be doing more is going to the ledge. In neutral, I believe you can put any situation into a neutral or advantageous position for yourself if you choose the correct option from the ledge. And when you're edgeguarding, I think there's a lot to be said for edgeguarding from the ledge with a haxesque method; aka reseting your invincibility continuously to cover the ledge and abusing invincibility to cover options. You can cover low options by dropping off the ledge into a uair, mid height options by ledgehop uair, and high options by either RLD double jump aerial or ledgedashing into the center and then aerial.
The other thing I think Ganons should be doing more is going to the ledge. In neutral, I believe you can put any situation into a neutral or advantageous position for yourself if you choose the correct option from the ledge. And when you're edgeguarding, I think there's a lot to be said for edgeguarding from the ledge with a haxesque method; aka reseting your invincibility continuously to cover the ledge and abusing invincibility to cover options. You can cover low options by dropping off the ledge into a uair, mid height options by ledgehop uair, and high options by either RLD double jump aerial or ledgedashing into the center and then aerial.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
So true about retreating to ledge. I purposely DI for the ledge all the time.
Off topic, but what do you guys think of light shield with ganon on platforms/ to get out of shine pressure. It's something that I think would be practical but I don't see, and I'd like to know why. Ganon's shield does nothing to protect his feet on platform and no amount of shield di changes that, so, to keep safe wouldn't light shield make sense? Does the shield stun actually put ganon in a bad position? Also, It seems like lightshield drop would, by extension, be a good option to keep safe and go on the offensive. If ganon gets knocked off platform, due to sliding from the light shield, it also seems preferable to being hit, because you can land and escape the situation/throw out an aerial to clank/stuff an approach. I'd like to hear the thoughts of the ganons.
Also, with shine pressure, would the sliding caused by the light shield put you far enough away to escape? Or is does the shield stun mess with that too?
Also, might as well include this tidbit for new ganons: I hadn't connected the dots as a new player that up on the cstick buffers jump out of shield. So if you want to do a SHFFLd move out of shield, without this tidbit it's really hard. I use cstick to buffer jump and tap it another direction for an aerial, its easy and fast, and you can control the direction that you come out with the aerial very easily with the control stick. Trying to improve my out of shield game, as I so often do some incredibly stupid shield grab, so any additional info on the topic would be great to hear!
Also, with shine pressure, would the sliding caused by the light shield put you far enough away to escape? Or is does the shield stun mess with that too?
Also, might as well include this tidbit for new ganons: I hadn't connected the dots as a new player that up on the cstick buffers jump out of shield. So if you want to do a SHFFLd move out of shield, without this tidbit it's really hard. I use cstick to buffer jump and tap it another direction for an aerial, its easy and fast, and you can control the direction that you come out with the aerial very easily with the control stick. Trying to improve my out of shield game, as I so often do some incredibly stupid shield grab, so any additional info on the topic would be great to hear!
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X WaNtEd X
Smash Lord
I think you should light shield on platoforms while your opponent has invincibility when coming back from a stock. If they hit you you can DI off the platform. If they try to tomahawk you can shield drop to avoid it. But sometimes it's better to not light shield if you think your opponent will try to cross up your shield. Because in cases like that, your regular shield will block it and because there won't be as much shield stun, you can shield drop uair or bair (in rare circumstances).
As for shine pressure, even if you DI away they will still be able to pressure you if they're fast. But you can trick up a lot of people with the light shield; many people won't expect you to slide that far and thus will continue pressuring as if you were in regular shield so you'll have some time to get out of trouble. You probably won't be able to do anything oos from light shield to punish, but you can escape sticky situations and that's what counts.