Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[s0teric]

As for shine pressure, even if you DI away they will still be able to pressure you if they're fast. But you can trick up a lot of people with the light shield; many people won't expect you to slide that far and thus will continue pressuring as if you were in regular shield so you'll have some time to get out of trouble. You probably won't be able to do anything oos from light shield to punish, but you can escape sticky situations and that's what counts.

Well I think I might as well light shield to keep myself safe, and if I see my opponent crossing over/overshooting, I can just increase pressure, hard shield and shield drop to aerial. It may be difficult, but it could be a bait, even. And its good to know about this for shine pressure, because a buffered roll out of shield is probably a more expected option, and this makes for a good, possibly surprising mixup.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Also guys, a few Kage matches that happened at the VT tournament I went to last week:

Kage (Falcon, Ganon) vs. Tian (Sheik)
Kage (Falcon, Ganon) vs. Vwins (Peach) x2 and Kage (Ganon) vs. Dudutsai (Puff)

I got 9th at this event. Kind of upset because I got knocked out by a ****ing Ness! This guy called vrud was all over me; I had like no idea what to do lol. Anyone have good Ness advice? lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Well I think I might as well light shield to keep myself safe, and if I see my opponent crossing over/overshooting, I can just increase pressure, hard shield and shield drop to aerial. It may be difficult, but it could be a bait, even. And its good to know about this for shine pressure, because a buffered roll out of shield is probably a more expected option, and this makes for a good, possibly surprising mixup.

Well I mean you wouldn't really buffer a roll on a platform anyway so that doesn't matter. And on the ground, even if they expect it, it's often a really safe option because Ganon's roll is so far. But yeah, I like your idea of going from light to hard shield real quick. That's something I've been trying to incorporate into my gameplay, but it's pretty hard to do. What I do is light shield with the left trigger and hard shield with the right to make it easier to go between the two.

Anyway, I'll give this strat a try tomorrow at game over. Haven't gone in awhile so it'll be interesting to see how I do compared to my usual 13th-17th finish.

 

[-ACE-]

Vs. Ness you can get 2 regrabs from 0% and then jab, possibly uair after. Just space like crazy in neutral, and stick to uair/bair. You can only challenge his fair with fully spaced bair. Be safer and focus more on zoning and stage control you'll be ok. As soon as he's offstage he's super dead lol.

 

[s0teric]

Vrud put on a showing, getting on stream at evo, so you didn't get bopped by some no name. I don't have much advice per se other than space him out? I mean get under ness with uairs/get him on platforms, and ness doesn't really have any options to cover below him... I would imagine you just want the ness above you so you can avoid fair approaches and do aerial combos/ keep the ness out. Once you get him off stage, it should be a straightforward edgeguard. I don't have much experience, myself, but that's how I imagine the matchup would go.

As for the shine stuff, the scenario I imagined in my mind was on a flat portion of a stage, so thats why I was thinking of the buffered roll. And I mean in terms of doing lightshield vs roll, I was thinking the surprise factor could allow you to come out of light shield with like a shorthopped uair to catch a surprised spacie's jump or something. Possibly even surprise them with a fair to the face, in the middle of their pressure!

Edit: Wow i pretty much said the same thing as ace lol.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Vs. Ness you can get 2 regrabs from 0% and then jab, possibly uair. Just space like crazy in neutral, and stick to uair/bair. You can only challenge his fair with fully spaced bair. Be safer and focus more on zoning and stage control you'll be ok. As soon as he's offstage he's super dead lol.

Actually, edgeguarding was what I had the most trouble with. He'd just double jump fair and it would beat everything I through out to challenge it. I guess I just wasn't spacing my bairs right.

 

[s0teric]

Actually, edgeguarding was what I had the most trouble with. He'd just double jump fair and it would beat everything I through out to challenge it. I guess I just wasn't spacing my bairs right.

Try taking ledge and doing ledgehop uair/ ledgehop to onstage punish. It keeps the ness above you in all situations and keeps you out of fair range presumably. Also, if he tries to land further onstage you can ledgedash grab and throw him off, or wizard kick, etc. Spacing bairs may be effective in certain situations, but you can keep this in mind as well.

Suffice to say, take ledge and use your ledge options to keep safe from that fair and punish him on stage.

 

[-ACE-]

Bait the dj fair and run away bair or jump away from the fair and perfect waveland back in to intercept him as he lands. After he dj's he can only fair or airdodge.... once you get used to these options it won't be giving you much trouble anymore (although ness fair will always be ghey).

As soon as you force him to up-b reverse uair him or hit him with whatever you can. He's easy as f*ck to edgeguard vrud just never gave you a chance to abuse it. See if you can play more vs ppl who have a ness so you can learn how to deal with fair pressure better. You can't let him have control of the neutral game.

Also if he actually gets to launch with his up-b just invincible uair him (ledgehop uair, ledgedrop uair, any FP dj uair).

 

[s0teric]

Also to consider: ness could save his fair and do it late, so if you have trouble spacing your bair against it, that might give you trouble. Also, ness can recover with spaced bair as well, like in :30 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOA5-r4k7Ck
Things that might make your ledge options more relevant/ a good mixup.

 

[Kar]

Hey guys it's me again, the noob french ganondorf player looking for advices. I went to a tournament last week-end and two of my sets were on stream.

the first one was against a Falco player, the worst thing in this set were my follow-ups after grabs, I litterally missed all of them

the second one was against one of the best european Marth main, Makenshi, a very old school player who destroyed me but i guess my weaknesses shine out better thanks to him lol. I only played first game with Ganon though because he switched to Sheik (I hate the Ganon-Sheik match-up and my Fox does better against her)

You can watch my first set at 3:04:00 and the second one at 3:56:10 here : http://www.twitch.tv/izno1/b/618623996

I would like a few tips to help me to get better, even if I can see a lot of my mistakes by myself, maybe some of you could help me

 

[s0teric]

Hey guys it's me again, the noob french ganondorf player looking for advices. I went to a tournament last week-end and two of my sets were on stream.

Sorry I don't have time to critique right now (and probably cus I wouldn't do a lot better), but who is dero? He played after you and his ganon was looking awesome. Do you train with him?

 

[Coastward]

http://www.twitch.tv/coastward

gonna be analyzing some matches so come stop by and say hi

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

@ Clocked when is the next time your going to neb?

< this is Jimmies that ganon main you faced like in dec i think....?

 

[Clocked]

@ Clocked when is the next time your going to neb?

< this is Jimmies that ganon main you faced like in dec i think....?

Hey man! I'm gonna try and show up next weekend, but that's uncertain. Schoolwork and whatnot. I'll shoot you a message when I know for sure.

 

[Divinokage]

what are you thinking about when you're driving/walking/busing/flying/swimming to a tournament?

If I'm alone then I usually pay attention to what's going on around me to stay focused on the moment. Training this daily helps me to do what's needed to be done when I'm playing the game. I think there's nothing more important than to beat whoever is facing me. It basically focuses me to execute my gameplan. With people, I just enjoy whatever is happening until the time of the tournament. Before a match since i faced basically everybody in the world, I try to remember their patterns and what to do in that matchup. Knowing what to do is one thing but everyone has different timings so I have to focus on how they want to attack me.

what are you thinking about when you win a match?

I usually feel pretty good after a win so I say gg and move on to my next opponent. I try to stay humble in those cases because it can easily get to your head so instead i just enjoy how it feels. If there's a crowd and all then I can share that happiness with a fist bump and high fiving people lol. Also I try to remember what happened in the match that I could be doing better.

what are you thinking about when you lose a match?

Well sometimes id have my head down a little bit but i'd still give a hand to my opponent. I usually think about almost obsessively what I missed out on then in a few minutes i would calm down and enjoy the event. If i wouldnt do that the feeling of losing would perpetuate a little too long. For example vs Weon-X I thought a lot "If only I got that edgeguard for the win", if that's all it came down to then it shows me i still have work to do. Losing sometimes feels good in the end because it shows you dead in the face what you are lacking. So you work at it until next time you get the win.

what are you thinking about when you're leaving the tournament?

Probably how i'll miss everybody. At a tournament the energy is too much sometimes, it keeps you awake for so long. =P If I won the tournament then Ill probably talk about how I ended everybody's dreams on that day lol. If I didnt win then all i can do is talk about the good times, the MMs, party time, etc.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I just spent half an hour practicing Ganon's waveland. Got a brief spurt of motivation from reading the last page and a half or so of this thread. Went from a 0% success rate in the first 5 minutes to about 40-50% in the last 5.

Still don't know whether I'm going to go back to being a straight Ganon main, but being able to overcome a barrier that I'd really been stuck on with this character for basically the last year or two feels really good.

 

[Coastward]

might start making a video series of my just analyzing **** and theorycrafting.

it's beneficial for both parties, so why not?

also, rockcrock is the best ganon k bye.

 

[Bwmat]

can you reliably kill shiek (i.e. hit her far enough out that you can simply grab the edge to kill) out of CG? Or is the plan to start an edgeguard situation?

I think I'm going to get 20xx set up in the next few days and start practicing CGs and grab punishes.

 

[Coastward]

can you reliably kill shiek (i.e. hit her far enough out that you can simply grab the edge to kill) out of CG? Or is the plan to start an edgeguard situation?

I think I'm going to get 20xx set up in the next few days and start practicing CGs and grab punishes.

depends where you are on stage + what stage it is.

for example, if you get a sheik to 80% on yoshi's, you can possibly get an usmash after dthrow and get a stock.

if you're playing on dreamland, you'll have to probably throw out a bair and setup an edgeguard.

 

[tm]

right, but we're not playing AR so you will miss...

Lol. I have always said base your use of the cg off your own level of mastery of it. As soon as you think you could miss a regrab opt for the techchase instead. Can't be missing regrabs.

Can you really say that the CG is worse? There's NEVER a guarantee that you can get a good hit off of a tech chase, even if you are frame perfect.

Plans versus sheik? Should be perfecting one's punish game. What if when you grabbed sheik she magically just lost a stock? Well thats reality at top level play. Just because Ganon has to work a lot harder doesn't mean it's impossible. Sheik has it easy. So what. 0-deaths should go relatively back and forth if you aren't giving her a ton of openings. Just saying, I see ganons make basic mistakes when losing to sheiks. It takes a lot of practice and focus to make punishing sheik properly second nature, but once you do it changes things.

I feel the same way. I have more trouble with fox / falco / falcon because the neutral and punish games are harder, despite their punish games also being harder. Also I actually like sheik on FD because most sheiks are ass at the CG, and CG -> fsmash pretty much always kills on FD. I lose so many CGs to platforms on yoshis / BF / fountain :/

 

[Bwmat]

what do you guys think about approaching with shffl'd up-airs, aiming to hit a grounded opponent with the beginning hitbox on the way up?

They seem pretty good, but I'm finding it hard to consistently hit them (missing since I start it too late and whiff above their heads). Also they seem to be pretty unsafe when shielded, but maybe I'm not spacing them right? Sometimes jabbing after works.

I try to surprise opponents who are retreating/camping with them, since they're pretty much the fastest thing you can do out of a dash, and they have a deceptive range.

 

[Bwmat]

The more I read these boards, the more amazed I am that I'm any good at all, since I've learned to play completely by intuition + watching vids. I never really took the time to learn CGs, or all the different ways to punish techs and whatnot.

In fact, when I play, I usually find myself shutting off my brain, sometimes causing me to do stupid **** like spam down-b. I find it hard to think, especially with any depth or speed, at least consciously.

I'm trying to change that, but it's hard. I've built my whole game up of ganon tech skill and tricks. I just throw out moves :/

 

[Divinokage]

Also guys, a few Kage matches that happened at the VT tournament I went to last week:

Kage (Falcon, Ganon) vs. Tian (Sheik)
Kage (Falcon, Ganon) vs. Vwins (Peach) x2 and Kage (Ganon) vs. Dudutsai (Puff)

I got 9th at this event. Kind of upset because I got knocked out by a ****ing Ness! This guy called vrud was all over me; I had like no idea what to do lol. Anyone have good Ness advice? lol

Man Vwins bodied me.. it's not fair. That Falcon combo on Tian tho haha.

 

[Bwmat]

one more spam post before I turn in for the night.

I find that I get 'stuck' often in my grab. What I mean is, I'll get the grab, then try to throw, except... I don't. Then I wiggle the control stick in confusion/annoyance a bit and end up forward or back-throwing instead of down throwing, and losing a possible punish in the process.

Another thing I have trouble with sometimes is doing ledge hops, since I end up doing the tourney winner, which has won me many tourneys. My friend has quipped before 'reset to neutral', maybe that's what I need to do, but my question is, do you think the grab thing is a symptom of the same problem? Should I slow down and let the stick reset to neutral before throwing, possibly giving the other player a fraction of a second longer to think and input DI?

What do you guys do to avoid this, if it even happens to you?

 

[Bwmat]

I lied.

Look at how punishable marth's side-b is. Even ganon can do it while relatively far from the edge. http://gfycat.com/UnderstatedAridDeer

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Hey guys it's me again, the noob french ganondorf player looking for advices. I went to a tournament last week-end and two of my sets were on stream.

the first one was against a Falco player, the worst thing in this set were my follow-ups after grabs, I litterally missed all of them

the second one was against one of the best european Marth main, Makenshi, a very old school player who destroyed me but i guess my weaknesses shine out better thanks to him lol. I only played first game with Ganon though because he switched to Sheik (I hate the Ganon-Sheik match-up and my Fox does better against her)

You can watch my first set at 3:04:00 and the second one at 3:56:10 here : http://www.twitch.tv/izno1/b/618623996

I would like a few tips to help me to get better, even if I can see a lot of my mistakes by myself, maybe some of you could help me

So first off, I gotta say that those french commentators are looking wacky a f. lmao at the guy wearing those giant sun glasses.

Anyway, now that I got that off my chest, I feel sort of obligated to give you at least a somewhat legitimate response to your post so here's my "critique".

Dair jab is not safe on Falco's shield. I wouldn't recommend landing with a dair like that unless you're tech chasing or making a read. You shouldn't be challenging people with it like that. Also I liked your tilts in neutral often, but I think you could've used reverse uairs and bairs more efficiently than your use of tilts while edgeguaring.

Vs. Marth you can't jump like that. You need to stay grounded more. That's pretty much why you were getting bodied. Crouch cancel his hits, or at least threaten to crouch cancel. It will make him question his approaches and give you some space to work with.

Man Vwins bodied me.. it's not fair. That Falcon combo on Tian tho haha.

I was going to ask you what was going on in your sets with Vwins, but I had to leave suddenly so I never got the chance. Is Vwins just that good vs. Ganon? Or are there things in the peach matchup that could've been played better? For example I didn't really see many turnip catches, but maybe that was just because Vwins was using turnips in such a way they couldn't be caught very well and it just flew over my head.

Can you really say that the CG is worse? There's NEVER a guarantee that you can get a good hit off of a tech chase, even if you are frame perfect.

I feel the same way. I have more trouble with fox / falco / falcon because the neutral and punish games are harder, despite their punish games also being harder. Also I actually like sheik on FD because most sheiks are *** at the CG, and CG -> fsmash pretty much always kills on FD. I lose so many CGs to platforms on yoshis / BF / fountain :/

I heavily endorse the practice of the chaingrab, but the only way the chaingrab is worth it is if you have a high level of proficiency with it. Until your skill with it is high enough to put someone offstage off the folowup 50% of the time, it's not worth doing. If you go for a tech chase every single time or a guaranteed followup, you can achieve these odds.

I agree on the neutral game stuff. Out of the three fast fallers, I definitely feel like Falco is the easiest to deal with in the neutral if you strike to the right stages. He's so much easier to corner.

As for the sheik chaingrab, it's so true that they mess it up a lot. Many good sheiks drop it against me because I'll just immediately DI diagonally away to make it the hardest trajectory to follow up on and it'll catch them off guard because they're used to getting easy chain grabs the first few times before actually having to react off dash jump cancel grabs. It's really funny when the sheik player refuses to tech chase or do a normal followup that would otherwise put me in a sticky situation just to prove to themselves they can get the chaingrab

The one thing I don't think is good about FD though despite having that dank ass chaingrab to fsmash and the ability to throw sheiks off is the fact that it's so damn hard to even get a grab in the first place on that stage, let alone fight in the neutral game. When I play a sheik that knows the matchup on that stage, thinking I'll have a shot "cuz chaingrab", I get owned because I'll simply get outplayed in the neutral time after time because of the lack of platforms. I'll leave the set thinking "never again will I not ban FD vs. Sheik."

 

[-ACE-]

Can you really say that the CG is worse? There's NEVER a guarantee that you can get a good hit off of a tech chase, even if you are frame perfect.

All I said was if you don't have the cg mastered, opting for a techchase is better because whiffing a regrab is obviously a guaranteed fail. The cg is normally best because you can always get some guaranteed damage before you techchase if nothing else. But, there are certainly times when techchases are guaranteed, they are just very situation-specific.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ B Bwmat You might be getting "stuck" when trying to down-throw because you are trying to do it too fast. I had this problem as well, and you just simply have to practice the timing on your own from the moment you hit the grab button to the moment you hit down on the control stick or the c-stick. You should hit down as soon as you see the grab animation happen, there's a visual cue that you landed it, the little spark thing that happens when you grab someone. I think the frame that the visual cue happens is the frame you can start down-throwing. You can definitely do it really fast.

Yes, the same can be applied to tournament winner. You're probably hitting jump too early and before you let go of the ledge when trying to ledge dash or just ledge hop onto the stage. Don't always try to go super fast. If you do end up tournament winnering, do what @ L Linguini does best and immediately hold back to the ledge and come down with a fair to cover you coming down. Like this: http://youtu.be/AxTCkhrx8SA?t=2m47s

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

When ledgedashing does the stage make a different at all? Like, is the timing on Yoshi's different than the timing of FoD or anything?

 

[-ACE-]

Tipman swears fod is the hardest. I think YS gives me the most trouble bc of the slant by the ledge (I think).

 

[Smashing_Spamus]

As an Ex-Dorf main, (RIP Tipman and Ganon Smack) I would agree that Yoshi's is the hardest, I usually can't do it and end up with like 1-3 frames of vulnerability. I swear, melee edges pls.

 

[-ACE-]

Bwmat: use c-down for dthrow. It buffers so you cant miss.

Ganon CAN kill sheik reliably with fsmash at 85ish and fair/bair (edgehog/one edgeguard may be necessary, but edgeguarding sheik is not hard.

With the ledgejumps, you're just hitting jump a frame before you actually drop. Hit jump slightly later and keep practicing.

 

[cptjiggles69]

I can come out to some after reading week in february, work is slow now too

Will do.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

yoshi's gives me the hardest time. and yes, there's a slightly different timing to it.

Bwmat: use c-down for dthrow. It buffers so you cant miss.

didn't know this. never really had trouble "getting stuck" anyway, but good to know regardless.

 

[Coastward]

i dont think yoshis is hard at all.

i SD the most on dreamland and stadium.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

So the general sense I'm getting is that I should practice ledgedash on all stages rather than just assume the muscle memory will transfer over?

I've decided to fully focus on Ganon after I realized that Bizz vs Eikelmann in the salty suite was absolutely the most hyped I got all weekend. There's just something to this character that I don't feel with others.

 

[Yort]

yoshis feels the easiest to me but not the most consistent in getting maximum I frames.

I don't notice any difference in the others. Is there any difference at all? I feel like they are all the same.

 

[-ACE-]

I was talking about RLD btw. But apparently Tipman tested it with AR and fod requires one less frame of error than the others. I think the slant in ys makes RLD's harder and he disagrees.

 

[s0teric]

@ -ACE- Does the slant just require a more diagonal motion on the stick for the waveland? I could see how the slanted edge would cause you to jump a little higher over the stage and airdodge instead, if your waveland motion is more toward the horizontal.

 

[Coastward]

I was talking about RLD btw. But apparently Tipman tested it with AR and fod requires one less frame of error than the others. I think the slant in ys makes RLD's harder and he disagrees.

OH OKAY THEN YEAH **** YOSHIS LMAO