Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

@ SwiftNinjaBlackMan We streamed the day before yesterday, should be archived on his channel

@ spider_sense Lag is almost unnoticable on our connection since we dont live too far away, its just the slight input lag u gotta get used to. (Not the same input lag as playing on lcds, way less)
Obviously because of this i cant be doing the technical **** im used to doing. Gotta keep it reaaaal 2001. Nonetheless, very playable

-Capable PC, decent internet, Dolphin, GC adapter, balls.

For some reason i can only use falcon , mario and g&w on netplay , i suck *** with dorf idk why

You can do it eventually, its just very slightly muscle memory. The level online is generally slightly below average except a few top players. I played Andrew, Lord, Simna without too much lag. There's also Warriorknight, Anther and soon to be Bam/Vwins. =D Let me explain why your dorf is balls online None, it's because you are facing the master Ganon.. if I didnt know how to play vs Ganon i'd shoot myself lol. But on the other hand, i'd question myself if I should take Ganon vs your Falcon, scary decision. But this matchup can be real bad even if you know it. I can understand the struggle for Ganon. lol

 

[n0ne]

You can do it eventually, its just very slightly muscle memory. The level online is generally slightly below average except a few top players. I played Andrew, Lord, Simna without too much lag. There's also Warriorknight, Anther and soon to be Bam/Vwins. =D Let me explain why your dorf is balls online None, it's because you are facing the master Ganon.. if I didnt know how to play vs Ganon i'd shoot myself lol. But on the other hand, i'd question myself if I should take Ganon vs your Falcon, scary decision. But this matchup can be real bad even if you know it. I can understand the struggle for Ganon. lol

Lol what are u talking about i cant even move

I guess cuz of the wavelamds, cant do any since timing is different

 

[Divinokage]

Lol what are u talking about i cant even move

I guess cuz of the wavelamds, cant do any since timing is different

If your Falcon could move I dont see why your Ganon shouldnt be able to, doesnt make any sense. lol

 

[n0ne]

Thats what i mean, with falcon i dont WD much since he doesnt need it, but with dorf i actually moved around alot with wavelands but since netplay messes timings up i usually just get stuck or SD

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

 

[Coastward]

i miss @Bizzarro Flame

 

[spider_sense]

@ spider_sense Hey after watching a bit of your matches vs gravy, I want to point out some things that I think you should do less of:

1. Shielding in neutral
2. Double-jumping in neutral

I feel like you're afraid in neutral sometimes vs Falcon and you choose to shield cause you feel safe in your shield, when in fact it's better to just keep moving around so that Falcon doesn't just get a free shot at you. The only time I could see this work is if you bait him to grabbing you and you full-hop dair out of shield or insta-upair out of shield. You also double-jump in neutral a little bit too much, like when you're trying to land a fair or you want to reach Falcon offstage really quickly. I can assure you if you just wait and full-hop more often in neutral, you won't get caught losing your double jump and getting combo'd to death cause of it. I also see you double-jump in place to perfect waveland grab. That's starting to become a really noticable habit of yours, and I would suggest you start short-hopping away and perfect wavelanding in to grab, or to just jab.

Well here's the interesting thing; I lost to Pi (Samus main) and he told me I jump way too much out of my shield, but you're telling me I shouldn't stay in my shield, but maybe that's just the difference in the match up. I'm trying to do really well at Paragon. I'm fighting a lot of mental demons because I want to beat great players without doing stupid **** I'm accustomed to. I'll do wavedash oos more with Ganon but the only problem with that is that it's hard to do consistently especially when I try to pivot wavedash; I'm also trying to get down the shield dropping fair without fastfalling, because Ganon would be ridiculous with that sort of tech.

 

[spider_sense]

Well here's the interesting thing; I lost to Pi (Samus main) and he told me I jump way too much out of my shield, but you're telling me I shouldn't stay in my shield, but maybe that's just the difference in the match up. I'm trying to do really well at Paragon. I'm fighting a lot of mental demons because I want to beat great players without doing stupid **** I'm accustomed to. I'll do wavedash oos more with Ganon but the only problem with that is that it's hard to do consistently especially when I try to pivot wavedash; I'm also trying to get down the shield dropping fair without fastfalling, because Ganon would be ridiculous with that sort of tech.

...I'm going in hard.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm with ya there. I'm really trying to not auto-pilot in matches, because I realize that's a huge problem on my end. At least now I'm recognizing when I auto-pilot and when I don't, and I tend to do it a lot in neutral. I need to wavedash less in neutral, only throw out moves close to my opponent. Jump less. Just think about each and everything that I need to do. It's hard fighting this mental demon of mine, but at least I know what to work on, and implementing it in actual serious matches will probably take some time.

 

[Renth]

Twitch.tv/hungrybox


Me and hbox event let's go

 

[Renth]

About to play loser finals

Twitch.tv/hungrybox

 

[Coastward]

trying to practice chaingrabbing spacies, but that **** is MAD hard.

i cant seem to get the jc grab out in time, can someone tell me if its frame perfect or something? im assumuing i should also be dash grabbing at higher percents also?

 

[tm]

trying to practice chaingrabbing spacies, but that **** is MAD hard.

i cant seem to get the jc grab out in time, can someone tell me if its frame perfect or something? im assumuing i should also be dash grabbing at higher percents also?

whether it's frame perfect or not depends on what % they're at. Realistically, your recognition of his DI (and which grab you need to use is the limiting factor, not your execution (although that also needs to be on point)

 

[Coastward]

whether it's frame perfect or not depends on what % they're at. Realistically, your recognition of his DI (and which grab you need to use is the limiting factor, not your execution (although that also needs to be on point)

i have my percents down and when i should be using standing grab, jc or dash grab. i can barely get any grab when they DI behind because im either too slow with the grab or i dont turn around because i was too fast.

 

[Superspright]

Practice on computers at first. They always DI behind. If you have the 20xx pack you can get mixed up DI. It's all about timing. I use c-stick down so it leaves my directional stick free to slam in one direction or the other. From 12-54% on Falco you can just use turn around grab to snag him from behind so it's more of a timing thing than an execution thing. It's not hard to execute once you feel the timing. Following an opponent's slight DI is when it gets hard.

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

@ Coastward

Once you get into their mind of where fox or falco are going to DI its basically over for their stock

 

[Orah]

Hello fellow Ganonites, I'm relatively new to this game compared to most players. I picked it up for the first time almost a year ago ( I know, i'm hella late) and have been playing competitively since this past Halloween. For now, I usually go to a local at VCU, which is usually dominated by Redd and Milkman, two Fox mains ranked 3 and 4 in my region (MD/VA). So far it's been a learning experience in harnessing the triforce of power but I am determined. I owe a lot of credit to you all for how much knowledge and technique you've shared. I'd say I'm gradually progressing as player and seem to learn new nuisances to my game each week. However I know it is a tall mountain to climb and this is just beginning.

Now that I have the introduction out of the way it brings me to my first question. In the neutral game, which I know is a pain for most of Ganon's matchups, how useful is Sh to perfect waveland? I know it can allow you to utilize f-tilts, jabs, grabs, and even moonwalks. I also try sh perfect waveland to shffl aerials. Does this improve Ganon's approach? Should it be done sparingly? I'm trying to use it out of dd to look less predictable. Also, is fox trotting with Ganon a viable option?
Any input is greatly appreciated.

Also @ SwiftNinjaBlackMan
I've seen that video before and its still bone-crushingly awesome! However I know it's possible for Falco or any character to tech the down throw, which leads to my issue with practicing CG's against CP's because they don't seem to ever tech the down throw like real opponents (maybe they can in 20xx idk). But I'd think having to chase the tech makes chain grabbing more difficult and throws off the rhythm normally practiced against a CP.
I know @ -ACE- has a great tech chasing guide, I need to go refresh my memory on it

 

[RedmanSSBM]

how useful is Sh to perfect waveland?

I thought someone would never ask. This is the exact thing that I am trying to implement the MOST into my Ganon play, as I feel it will have drastic improvements in my neutral game, and even punish game.

I believe that SH to perfect waveland is actually a lot more useful than people think it out to be. Ganon's waveland is fast, so you want to use it a lot to move around right? Wavelanding causes 10 frames of lag on the ground, but that's a godsend compared to his regular movement speed. Now, you can't really just SH perfect waveland all over the place, but you CAN use it to really throw off your opponent. For example, in neutral, if you got a read that a Fox player is just gonna dash dance, You can short-hop waveland in and ftilt them to close the distance on them and throw out a hitbox. Of course, you have to do this at the right time, but I believe the reward for doing so is really good.

I see a lot of Ganon's currently double jump in order to get that perfect waveland. Yes, that is easier, but you use your double jump in the process, meaning if you get hit, you are going to be easily edgeguarded without a double jump. It also looks really obvious that you are about to waveland if you double jump in place really fast and go for it. By short-hopping before you waveland, you disguise your intention to perfect waveland right after, and hiding what you're going to do next is huge in this game. You can do a lot of things from a short hop, and most of the time it's going to be an aerial, so if your opponent expects you to come down during a short hop with an aerial and shields, then you can perfect waveland behind them and grab, catching them by surprise.

But wait, there's more. You can use the momentum from the waveland and transfer it into a jump or a moonwalk, and use that momentum to get a really far out bair for a gutsy edgeguard, or to get that last hit in for a punish when your opponent looks too far away. When Ganon is wavelanding, that speed is faster than his running speed by a good margin, and doing it perfectly means you get the maximum speed. So basically, if done completely correctly, you can move in the air as fast as Falcon can, and THAT is a scary Ganondorf.

Even perfect waveland into jab is really fast and can catch your opponent off guard. There's a lot of cool mixups you can do; the possibilities seem endless!

I implore all of you to learn to short-hop perfect waveland more consistently, as I feel like it will be a huge step in a much needed direction for the character.

 

[Orah]

I thought someone would never ask. This is the exact thing that I am trying to implement the MOST into my Ganon play, as I feel it will have drastic improvements in my neutral game, and even punish game.

I believe that DH to perfect waveland is actually a lot more useful than people think it out to be. Ganon's waveland is fast, so you want to use it a lot to move around right? Wavelanding causes 10 frames of lag on the ground, but that's a godsend compared to his regular movement speed. Now, you can't really just SH perfect waveland all over the place, but you CAN use it to really throw off your opponent. For example, in neutral, if you got a read that a Fox player is just gonna dash dance, You can short-hop waveland in and ftilt them to close the distance on them and throw out a hitbox. Of course, you have to do this at the right time, but I believe the reward for doing so is really good.

I see a lot of Ganon's currently double jump in order to get that perfect waveland. Yes, that is easier, but you use your double jump in the process, meaning if you get hit, you are going to be easily edgeguarded without a double jump. It also looks really obvious that you are about to waveland if you double jump in place really fast and go for it. By short-hopping before you waveland, you disguise your intention to perfect waveland right after, and hiding what you're going to do next is huge in this game. You can do a lot of things from a short hop, and most of the time it's going to be an aerial, so if your opponent expects you to come down during a short hop with an aerial and shields, then you can perfect waveland behind them and grab, catching them by surprise.

But wait, there's more. You can use the momentum from the waveland and transfer it into a jump or a moonwalk, and use that momentum to get a really far out bair for a gutsy edgeguard, or to get that last hit in for a punish when your opponent looks too far away. When Ganon is wavelanding, that speed is faster than his running speed by a good margin, and doing it perfectly means you get the maximum speed. So basically, if done completely correctly, you can move in the air as fast as Falcon can, and THAT is a scary Ganondorf.

Even perfect waveland into jab is really fast and can catch your opponent off guard. There's a lot of cool mixups you can do; the possibilities seem endless!

I implore all of you to learn to short-hop perfect waveland more consistently, as I feel like it will be a huge step in a much needed direction for the character.

I agree! It's refreshing to hear it from another perspective. I was wondering since it pushes you so far, so quickly, you could chase a tech away. Ala d-throw > sh perfect waveland > re-grab. I don't have that much XP in the competive scene but once I get the correct execution down to muscle memory, I think I could up with some mix-ups most vets aren't used to. I actually prefer sh to waveland rather than dj waveland. Right now I really need to get more consistent with my ledge dash and RLD. I gotta alotta work to catch up on but I'm optimistic.

 

[Coastward]

man i feel myself leveling up.

made an upset in my pool by 2-0ing a really good and old school fox. but i didnt make it out because it was only top 2 and i lost to a sheik and the link that beat @ tm LOL

sheik MU is ****ing hard, gonna put a lot more time into that.

interesting topic about sh waveland, too tired to read it now so ill read it and give me 2 cents tomorrow.

feels really good to know that im getting better.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I'm here at KiT and I made first seed in both my Melee and smash 4 pools. Beat a peach named stingers in my melee pool. Cool set.

Soooooo expect to see me on the VG Boot camp stream!

 

[-ACE-]

Lol I've known Alex (stingers aka stongers) since I first started going to tournaments 10 years ago. He was at CEO.... it had been forever since I've seen him.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Stingers was mad salty that he lost. I took two stocks off of him with Ganon in a crew battle just after xmas, and he said he was impressed

 

[iRanch]

I got RockCrock and Armada in my pool at Paragon. Guess I'll be the first Ganon to take a set off Armada B)

 

[Coastward]

I thought someone would never ask. This is the exact thing that I am trying to implement the MOST into my Ganon play, as I feel it will have drastic improvements in my neutral game, and even punish game.

I believe that SH to perfect waveland is actually a lot more useful than people think it out to be. Ganon's waveland is fast, so you want to use it a lot to move around right? Wavelanding causes 10 frames of lag on the ground, but that's a godsend compared to his regular movement speed. Now, you can't really just SH perfect waveland all over the place, but you CAN use it to really throw off your opponent. For example, in neutral, if you got a read that a Fox player is just gonna dash dance, You can short-hop waveland in and ftilt them to close the distance on them and throw out a hitbox. Of course, you have to do this at the right time, but I believe the reward for doing so is really good.

I see a lot of Ganon's currently double jump in order to get that perfect waveland. Yes, that is easier, but you use your double jump in the process, meaning if you get hit, you are going to be easily edgeguarded without a double jump. It also looks really obvious that you are about to waveland if you double jump in place really fast and go for it. By short-hopping before you waveland, you disguise your intention to perfect waveland right after, and hiding what you're going to do next is huge in this game. You can do a lot of things from a short hop, and most of the time it's going to be an aerial, so if your opponent expects you to come down during a short hop with an aerial and shields, then you can perfect waveland behind them and grab, catching them by surprise.

But wait, there's more. You can use the momentum from the waveland and transfer it into a jump or a moonwalk, and use that momentum to get a really far out bair for a gutsy edgeguard, or to get that last hit in for a punish when your opponent looks too far away. When Ganon is wavelanding, that speed is faster than his running speed by a good margin, and doing it perfectly means you get the maximum speed. So basically, if done completely correctly, you can move in the air as fast as Falcon can, and THAT is a scary Ganondorf.

Even perfect waveland into jab is really fast and can catch your opponent off guard. There's a lot of cool mixups you can do; the possibilities seem endless!

I implore all of you to learn to short-hop perfect waveland more consistently, as I feel like it will be a huge step in a much needed direction for the character.

to add on to locke's post, which basically covers up the sum of it:

if your opponent is dash dancing in place, this usually means theyre waiting for you to approach.

so in your neutral game, if youve been sh/dh wavlanding for approaches, they will most likely assume thats how youll be approaching from now on. theyll adapt to that and stuff your waveland before you can get a move out.

you can counter this by mixing up your wavelands by just sh/dh TOMAHAWK. theyll throw out a move and then you can punish them for that.

really good and subtle mixup for the neutral and not too many ganons i watch do it, so try experimenting because i have and its been benefiting me quite well.

 

[tm]

Good **** Ian!!!

 

[Coastward]

holy **** i wish i was as good as @ Эикельманн [РУС]

mew2king with the hardest bm tho LOL

 

[Divinokage]

holy **** i wish i was as good as @ Эикельманн [РУС]

mew2king with the hardest bm tho LOL

Almost JV5 twice.. >_< lol

 

[Coastward]

Almost JV5 twice.. >_< lol

BUT NO JV5

at least he wasnt getting chained for 5 minutes.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yo good ****ing **** @ Эикельманн [РУС] Losing only to Mew2King twice. That's what I'm talking about! :D

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Almost JV5 twice.. >_< lol

I think I'll be able to beat him if I grind as hard as I'd like this year. I think I did well for having just about 0 Sheik practice.

Looking forward to the videos.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Sup everyone. Long time no see. Been doing a lot of training recently and feel a lot better. Regardless, I have a few questions:

1. Regarding the useage of nair as a combo extender, how do I want to space it? I can never seem to get a clean followup from it unless I send them onto a platform and simply react with uair or cover everything with fair. The times I'm using it are when a Marth, Peach, or Shek DI forward off of a dthrow at low to mid percents and when I dair a fast faller at low to mid percents. I can almost always get a fair after the nair on the fast fallers with this setup, but it's never very clean on the floatier characters.

2. If I were to shield drop a fair without fast falling, would I be able to hit the platform with it? If so, that would be ****ing ridiculous.

3. Is there any point in RLD double jump fair/dair from ledge when you're trying to get back? It seems to me ledgehop run off double jump bair accomplishes the same spacing with less risk.

4. What is a better followup than side-b to bair/fair on a fast faller off a dair at 0%? I'm thinking I should be grabbing off that instead?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Эикельманн [РУС] Dude, if anything, you really need to try and grab Sheik more. I saw you trying to attack M2K more times than I would like to see, and you only got like 1 grab off of him. You need to get grabs on Sheik and Chain-Grab the *****. No Mercy. Scare her into her shield and waveland behind her and tomahawk grab. I can almost guarantee that the more grabs you get, the more tolerable this matchup will be.

@ X WaNtEd X

1. I would believe that you would have to space the nair very close to your opponent, as nair can very easily be DIed outward. It's cool that you use nair as a combo extender and end it with fair though, I would like to try that on the fastfallers at some point. I remember one time I hit Falcon with both hits of nair at low percent where the first hit of nair knocked him on the ground, and the second hit of nair hit him while he was on the ground. Pretty neat stuff.
2. I've actually tried this before in 20XX and it is entirely possible. I actually have a hard time fast-falling in the first place after a shield drop, but I haven't even implemented that into my game yet. I think you have to do it pretty fast and you have to be closer than you think.
3. I'm pretty sure the fair actually covers much more space than the bair does. You can also RLD into an instant upair, which can be really useful. Again, I haven't nailed this down while playing other people yet, but it's on the list.
4. Yeah, if you can side-b right after a dair at 0%, then you should definitely grab and use side-b again to cover at least two options. I don't think you should be finishing a side-b with fair or bair until at least 70% or so, or if they can be sent off stage. Otherwise, just regrab and cover multiple options with down-smash or side-b (down-b if you're facing away from the stage and the down-b would send them off)

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I would believe that you would have to space the nair very close to your opponent, as nair can very easily be DIed outward. It's cool that you use nair as a combo extender and end it with fair though, I would like to try that on the fastfallers at some point. I remember one time I hit Falcon with both hits of nair at low percent where the first hit of nair knocked him on the ground, and the second hit of nair hit him while he was on the ground. Pretty neat stuff.

Off of a dthrow that means there aren't many opportunities to nair in such a way it seems. I've heard that the nair can be used as a DI trap of sorts if hit correctly. Does anyone understand how this works exactly?

I've actually tried this before in 20XX and it is entirely possible. I actually have a hard time fast-falling in the first place after a shield drop, but I haven't even implemented that into my game yet. I think you have to do it pretty fast and you have to be closer than you think.

Going to try that out.

I'm pretty sure the fair actually covers much more space than the bair does. You can also RLD into an instant upair, which can be really useful. Again, I haven't nailed this down while playing other people yet, but it's on the list.

I guess it just seems extra risky to me because of how much slower fair is. But I suppose for situations where I can cover more space it's appropriate.

Yeah, if you can side-b right after a dair at 0%, then you should definitely grab and use side-b again to cover at least two options. I don't think you should be finishing a side-b with fair or bair until at least 70% or so, or if they can be sent off stage. Otherwise, just regrab and cover multiple options with down-smash or side-b (down-b if you're facing away from the stage and the down-b would send them off)

To rephrase my question, is side-b the best option in the fist place?

 

[tm]

Off of a dthrow that means there aren't many opportunities to nair in such a way it seems. I've heard that the nair can be used as a DI trap of sorts if hit correctly. Does anyone understand how this works exactly?

Try stomping falcon at mid %, then first hit nairing him. If he DIs in really hard (as he would if he expects a fair) then it can combo into fair.
Here's an example of bizzarro using it after sideB.

After a dair at 0, sideB can be DI'd to prevent any other follow up. If they don't DI it correctly, sideB into fair is a pretty damn good punish. You could maybe even sideB them twice lol. You could also 1st hit nair them onto platform for a tech chase. Downsmashing them out of the air is another option, which can net you another hit (lots of damage) but requires precise positioning. Grab here is good on spacies moreso than falcon if you can chaingrab (although fox can always escape with DI behind at this %). Just brainstorming but maybe some of this will help

EDIT: these are for low % stomps, but won't work from ZERO. my bad. You probably just want to grab. Can you even get sideB at zero???

 

[Yort]

Guys what USF4 characters do you play

I've been practicing the **** out of Makoto and I previously learned with Abel.

I'm still awful but i am getting better pretty quick, although learning with Makoto seems really tough.

I really need to go rewatch those videos spider sense posted now that i'm actually trying to git gud at street fighter.

 

[Coastward]

Guys what USF4 characters do you play

I've been practicing the **** out of Makoto and I previously learned with Abel.

I'm still awful but i am getting better pretty quick, although learning with Makoto seems really tough.

I really need to go rewatch those videos spider sense posted now that i'm actually trying to git gud at street fighter.

thawk forever

 

[Divinokage]

Guys what USF4 characters do you play

I've been practicing the **** out of Makoto and I previously learned with Abel.

I'm still awful but i am getting better pretty quick, although learning with Makoto seems really tough.

I really need to go rewatch those videos spider sense posted now that i'm actually trying to git gud at street fighter.

I play Ryu/Gief. This game is another beast to master. So hard. =P

Also on the grabbing Sheik part, it's just not possible if Sheik is aware of her spacing and what Ganon is trying to do. There's a reason why this matchup is too hard at top level.

 

[Renth]

I main Akuma

Also, the Sheik match up is literally unwinnable if the sheik knows what they are doing. I love the match up, its fun.. but thats about as far as it goes.

 

[n0ne]

I thought someone would never ask. This is the exact thing that I am trying to implement the MOST into my Ganon play, as I feel it will have drastic improvements in my neutral game, and even punish game.

I believe that SH to perfect waveland is actually a lot more useful than people think it out to be. Ganon's waveland is fast, so you want to use it a lot to move around right? Wavelanding causes 10 frames of lag on the ground, but that's a godsend compared to his regular movement speed. Now, you can't really just SH perfect waveland all over the place, but you CAN use it to really throw off your opponent. For example, in neutral, if you got a read that a Fox player is just gonna dash dance, You can short-hop waveland in and ftilt them to close the distance on them and throw out a hitbox. Of course, you have to do this at the right time, but I believe the reward for doing so is really good.

I see a lot of Ganon's currently double jump in order to get that perfect waveland. Yes, that is easier, but you use your double jump in the process, meaning if you get hit, you are going to be easily edgeguarded without a double jump. It also looks really obvious that you are about to waveland if you double jump in place really fast and go for it. By short-hopping before you waveland, you disguise your intention to perfect waveland right after, and hiding what you're going to do next is huge in this game. You can do a lot of things from a short hop, and most of the time it's going to be an aerial, so if your opponent expects you to come down during a short hop with an aerial and shields, then you can perfect waveland behind them and grab, catching them by surprise.

But wait, there's more. You can use the momentum from the waveland and transfer it into a jump or a moonwalk, and use that momentum to get a really far out bair for a gutsy edgeguard, or to get that last hit in for a punish when your opponent looks too far away. When Ganon is wavelanding, that speed is faster than his running speed by a good margin, and doing it perfectly means you get the maximum speed. So basically, if done completely correctly, you can move in the air as fast as Falcon can, and THAT is a scary Ganondorf.

Even perfect waveland into jab is really fast and can catch your opponent off guard. There's a lot of cool mixups you can do; the possibilities seem endless!

I implore all of you to learn to short-hop perfect waveland more consistently, as I feel like it will be a huge step in a much needed direction for the character.

Dont i already use that all the time?