Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

so i need some help with my project:

can you guys help me find some nice clips for @ Renth , @Eikelmann and @ spider_sense ?

i have a dew for each of them so far, but i need a little bit more.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

@ RedmanSSBM , I want to preface this by saying I mean no ill will and I may not be presenting answer but instead responding much in the way I treat and respond to myself, hopefully none of this is taken the wrong way but rather as a reflection of my mindset and view on things and of course contains a healthy dosage of projection

it started a lot nastier but then I decided I didn't want to go into too much detail about myself on a public forum so I pet my dog for a bit and calmed down and this is what we have, forgive any typos I cba fixing ****

regardless here we go

I do exactly as you have said but it's not working out. I feel like this is hardly progressing at all and playing this games feels more like a chore than it does like a fun activity. I'm really debating to even continue because I find myself not enjoying the game that much over time. In the grand scheme of things, I'm not having fun and I'm contemplating if it's still even worth playing this game. This is a problem I have dealt with for a long time now and I've tried many different things to get to a solution but it feels like there is no real concrete solution and that it's just a matter of constantly grinding this game just to slightly improve over time.

Why are you playing the game? Why do you want to improve? If you aren't having fun and you don't have a good answer to these then yeah, I agree, why play. I've forced myself to play games past the point of enjoyment in the past, simply because they were what my friends played, the result was nothing but resentment and hatred of the game. Better to be a fan of a game than hate it, even if not a player. If you don't want to stop I suggest you figure out why it is you want to get better and why it's worth putting the work in, and if your answer to that doesn't revolve around "me" and "I" statements then find another answer to get anything done in life you have to want it for you

I don't even know how I can play the game to enjoy it anymore. Everything feels like a chore. Everything hurts, everything sucks, I play bad, my opponent plays better than I do, I very rarely ever warm up, I've been reading "The Inner Game of Tennis" to help my mentality but I have not applied much of it at all and I can't find a way to get out of this stupid ****ing hole.
I don't want to take a break and then just come back because then I'll just be worse than I was before when I'm out of practice. I'll not enjoy the game even more than I do now. It's so ****ing stupid. I really like theorizing new things nd playing by myself to get down this new tech I've been wanting to try. I'm smart, I know a lot about how the game works and a lot about how matchups work I just cannot for the life of me doing while playing the ****ing game.

"Everything feels like a chore"
Does that expand beyond smash or is it just that everything melee feels like a chore. If it's just melee, then take a damn break. Solo practice a bit each week to keep from getting rusty. You need a damn mental break. Come back when you want to play the game and you'll play better, not worse. Mental breaks like that help a ton, at least they do for me. You don't accomplish **** while burnt out
If it's more then just melee, well then you have to do some serious reevaluation of more important things. As someone who has gone through some pretty serious depression, if you can't feel motivated to do anything, if you dont have the desire to do anything, make yourself. Just ****ing do it because that's what you have to ****ing do, take what you can feel and use it. Still feel some bitter angriness? Use that because it's better than nothing and turn it into fuel because you're ****ing better than that. Just laying down and giving up? You wont do that. Get up and get **** done. "Why" isn't a question you ask yourself or even consider you just ****ing do it. But this doesn't apply to smash, it should be something more important than smash. And honestly this is how I at least started to recover my life when it was falling apart around me. Get up each day and just ****ing do it.

The past 4 or so tournaments I have entered I have always gotten really upset at myself for losing to people I feel like I should not have lost to, or people I feel like I could have beaten if I was warmed up, or if I was playing Ganon and not Sheik or Marth or what the **** ever. I've been messing with other characters to figure out just how I have fun with the game but I'm finding the more and more I play this game to try and improve I'm enjoying it less and less and it's ****ing driving me up the ****ing wall.
I really don't even know what I'm gonna be doing for Apex because I'm so indecisive about what I want to do with this game. I mean, I'm still going of course, I just don't know what my game plan will be for when I go because I swear I've worked on so many options and I am reaching my limit here. I am not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and I just want to blow a hole in the wall.
It's like a ****ing slot machine effect, where I get those few bursts of amazing play that I feel like I play really well and it makes me want to keep playing this game. But then at most tournaments I don't even come close to that and I just end up flopping majorly and I'm always questioning what I am doing with my time by the end of the day. This **** is NOT fun to me at all. This **** is depressing to me.

Those bitter angry feelings sound like fuel to me, but maybe I run on different things than you. Regardless, think about why you're feeling those feelings. Reevaluate why you should be beating people and maybe give them a bit more respect or your ego a little less. Either way, if you don't have a solid reason as to why you want to improve then why is this upsetting you? If you do have a solid reason to improve then stop ****ing dwelling and use it as motivation to push towards that

I hate hearing all the crap about johns and that my mentality is bad. I've been trying to work on it for the past 3 ****ing months but I feel like I have made very little to no progress at all, despite increased effort. I cannot for the life of me find a proper balance between enjoying the game and improving drastically. It's like I have to sacrifice one or the other and I'm just not willing to do either of them.

Time and effort mean **** all if they aren't used right, figure out why your mentality is bad. Figure out why whatever that is is a thing. It's not about the game it's about self-improvement. Hell, games stopped being about games long ago for me, I just see them as a way to compete, a way to socialize, and a medium for self improvement. You can learn a lot about yourself, but most of the time you don't want to and once you do you don't want to put the effort into changing things. Mentality is a habit, just ****ing break the bad ones

I'm tired of all this negativity. I want to enjoy the game again. Maybe it's all just been an illusion in my head and I'm only good for playing friendlies versus. In fact, I'm actually pretty unpleasant when it comes to playing friendlies versus me in the first place. I'm always getting mad at myself for not executing the thing that I wanted to. I'm always getting distraught from losing a matchup that I know I have the knowledge and experience to beat but I just cannot do it in game. I make it unpleasant for whoever is playing with me because I'm like a ****ing **** sack that doesn't make anyone else's time a good time.

Tired of all the negativity? Then stop being so ****ing negative. Figure out why, take a break, whatever. Just ****ing stop, dwelling on it leads to more ****ing negativity, it feeds itself. As for the rest of that, cut that **** out. First and foremost, don't say do. Once you start ****ing dwelling on and complaining about faults like these you'll never ****ing fix them. Don't say "god why do I act like an asshole boohoo" just stop ****ing acting like one. Saying it is looking for a way out. It's a halfassed means of aknowledging it to make yourself feel better (and simultaneously worse) rather than just fixing it. Not happy with yourself, your behavior, your reactions? ****ing fix them, no one said it's easy and it's more than melee it's the way self-improvement as a whole works.

I know people talk crap about me behind my back because I'm rather insecure when it comes to these things. I try to justify my insecurities by only looking at it through my perspective and being ignorant to what other people think, and then when I think too hard about how other people perceive me I do dumb ****, blabble, talk about **** that I don't really know how to articulate in words, make stupid ****ing facebook status based on my insecurities, etc. I just cannot ****ing win. I cannot get around this and I really want to but I have tried and I don't know what to do. Do I just keep playing this game, hardly ever getting any better, being and unpleasant prick to be around whenever I play friendlies with you? Rub my knowledge in your face like you don't know anything and I'm the one that is smarter and better than you? Do you really still want me to be this person?

Again, just ****ing stop. It's easier said than done to stop being insecure, hell it may even be impossible, but it is possible to lessen its hold on you. Cut the **** with the facebook posts and stop dwelling on that ****, and again, when it comes to self-improvement, find a drive and just ****ing do it. No talking about it, none of that bull**** that's a waste of energy and a halfassed escape, just ****ing man up and ****ing do it no "how" or "why" just shut up and get it done.

I like this community too much to just completely leave it. I'd feel pretty empty without it.

Sometimes you just have to deal with and work through that emptiness because it's for your own good, something will replace it eventually dont let a game's community dictate your life.
I ran a forum for several years and made some solid friends, eventually I realized it was bringing me nothing but stress and anger. I stopped visiting the site. They can get by without me and after a few rough weeks I felt better about my own state. I still talk to the two people from there who actually message me on steam and chill on mumble. I've also watched a TF2 clan slowly fade and my own guild break up and break down. Communities mean jack **** it's the friends you make that matter and if they're actual friends then they stay regardless.

I still do like spectating and watching streams and cheering for people at nationals. I still enjoy talking to people I've never met before or someone who I haven't seen for a long time.

then keep doing this you can be a fan and not a player and you can do this for multiple games, being a fan takes a hell of a lot less time than playing

I could just be too negative right now, but it's hard to look away from it all when there's so much of it and when so much of it is a fact.

Shut the **** up about negativity you only ****ing make it worse that way for ****'s sake

Maybe this game isn't really meant for me? I have no way of really knowing when or where to stop. 1.5 years surely is not that long of a period of time but I hate that nothing is clicking for me. When will that day come for when this game suddenly clicks for me? I feel the same way about this game when I'm playing it since CEO and even before then.

Maybe, or maybe you just need a break to come back fresh, maybe take a break and find out rather than dwelling on doom and gloom ****

I'm sorry guys, but this is a lot of **** that I have been thinking a lot about over the past several weeks and it's been consuming my life and my time and I just wanted to really vent for a moment. I'm sorry that I seem so hopeless. I'm sorry that I seem like such a brat. I'm sorry that I appear to be a quitter and I will never amount to anything. I try to come off as nice most of the time to people but in reality I really just talk out of my *** most of the time.
I don't know. I'm done typing this wall of text. I've let out all that I feel like letting out and now I'm just gonna sulk the night away thinking about what I really want to do.

Cut this ****ing **** out. Why the **** are you apologizing and talking about ****ing hopelessness. That doesn't help and that doesn't acomplish ****. What the **** do you want, pity or to be left sulking? Heads up, neither of those ****ing things accomplish jack ****ing **** so stop wasting the energy. Stop ****ing dwelling on this bull**** because that's all it is. If you feel ****ty, focus on something ****ing else not the fact that you feel ****ty for ****'s sake. It's a nasty ****ing spiral that ends up with you in a ****ing dark place and a lot of **** that you worked ****ing hard for down the goddamn drain and I'm not just ****ing talking smash. Man the **** up and pick yourself up. Work on something productive, just ****ing do it, don't think about all of the negativity or how to fix it. Just think about what you want and have a drive for and then ****ing do it. But dwelling on negativity is a negative spiral, and dwelling is stagnation which breeds nothing but decay. ****, every now and again I just need to watch something like TTGL. "We evolve beyond the person that we were a minute before. Little by little we advance with each turn. That's how a drill works!"
Improvement, self improvement or improvement at melee or ****ing anything, is not about ****ing jumps and crazy spikes. Sure now and again something might click and jump ahead, but at the end of the day we're all just ****ing human and improvement is a slow process we just have to work at, keep turning and find the ****ing will, the drive, to push forward and keep going, that's ****ing life

@ Coastward
sorry I got nothin' to help but seeing the images and names like I'm looking forward to whatever your project is, it should be hype

 

[Coastward]

here it is, my special combo video i've been working on for a while. hope you guys like it.

 

[tm]

Nice vid coast. +1

Got some more sets up this weekend:
vs Ginger (falco)
vs Nova (fox / sheik)

how to lasers

 

[Coastward]

Nice vid coast. +1

Got some more sets up this weekend:
vs Ginger (falco)
vs Nova (fox / sheik)

how to lasers

once again, smooth ****ing shield drops and powershields. i envy you.

you played the fox MU pretty well, i like it.

from the falco match, it seems you touched on what i told you from last time with placing your moves better. but the lasers were mostly eating away at you. i wish i could tell you the solution, but im also going through the same struggle right now LOL.

paging mr. @ PseudoTurtle

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yoooooo free place to stay is a game changer for me. I need to know these weekends ahead of time tho. Is there a FB group where upcoming events are listed & updated? I rarely hear about chicago stuff except for the exp series, which I almost made it to a few times lol.

EDIT: can you also punish falcon's sideB OoS with instant uair?

I'm sure you can, especially seeing as falcon's side-b doesn't push you as far away as ganon's does, but you can grab falcon after side-b most of the time (I have no idea when you can't and why not), and a grab is usually a much better punish than an up air vs. falcon.

I totally stand by what I said about a free place to crash. 2 nights if necessary! Unfortunately, needing to know the weekends in advance is a little tough because I'm not really in the Chicago area all that often due to school, so it's usually a pretty last minute thing when I do attend. The next one I go to, I can give you a 2 week notice, does that sound ok?

And the facebook group you're looking for is called Chicago-land melee. The cover photo actually lists all of the local events, so that's really convenient. It's also a public group, so go ahead and join whenever. The Chicago land scene is mad cool too, so feel free to post whatever / whenever and you can expect a response.

Yea, the events I go to are hosted at EXP gaming. Typically very well-run tournaments and the owner is a really cool dude, even though he continuously bracket-****s me, even after placing 7th at that tournament with kels, mew2king and darkatma all in attendance AND 2-0'ing Sago, beating hindawg, and others that are generally regarded top 8 Chicago players... I digress- just venting / bragging here... He really is a cool guy though lol.

Sorry for the delay on this response, dude. I've actually been really busy, and am just getting around to it now.

@ -ACE- I'm really sorry to hear about that, man. I guess you don't need me to tell you how much that sucks, I really hope you feel better after a little bit of bed rest. And if I ever mention thinking about getting a hyundai, remind me about this **** lol.

@ Coastward you called? Questions about laser evasion techniques? I can answer, if you want. I learned some really cool stuff vs falco at the tournament I just attended, actually. Made a 4-stock comeback in tournament vs. one! The funny thing is, I used to actually be really good at avoiding lasers and trading with laser approaches, but now I have the annoying habit of just staying in my shield out of fear. I know it's bad and I know I'm doing it, but I can't seem to help it. A bit frustrating. Also, awesome video! Great music, edits and ganon combos. I'm a big fan!

edit: Actually, tm, there are a couple things I noticed off the bat.
First, stop trying to grab dash attack lol. I'm sure you already know this, and it looks so grab-able, but it's just like ganon's side-b- you can grab it with shield DI, but the timing is tricky and it's deceptive, you basically have to read it. (Don't worry, I do it all the time too)

There are better punishes. Stomp or bair work, but with stomp, they have time to put up their shield, so they'll likely shield it. I suppose empty hop grab would work here. They can put their shield up for bair as well, but it's safer on shield than a dair. Maybe wavedash oos into grab for the mix up?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Laharl's_Wrath I appreciate you attempting to try and help me out, but just telling me to man the **** up and not provide any actual solutions doesn't really help. I was to say that I made that post in the midst of frustration and it was purely me typing out my thoughts without reviewing what I had said nor there being a filter. After writing that post, the next day I just chilled for the whole day and I didn't want to play melee at all. I just wanted to sit and mellow out to anything else. It sucks. It was a pretty poopy place to be.

I've calmed down since then. I'm fine now. I really just need to be more aware what even gets me in this mental state in the first place, and once it starts to get to me, I really need to put a lot of effort into stopping myself, not talking about it or venting to someone about it, and just relax for a good bit and take a full-blown break for a bit, until I actually want to play again. Don't worry, I'm not gonna go into some negative mental spiral because I do not think like this all the time, only after playing badly when I'm really taking the game too seriously and I'm not having fun. Right now, I just want to focus on having a good time and enjoy myself. As much as it goes against my philosophy, I'll become ignorant of the "mistakes" that I'm making in game and just play it and try to have fun with it. As soon as I start to get flustered, I'll put my controller down, walk away from the TV, and check my phone/social media for a good bit. Anything to completely take my mind off the game for a brief bit. It can even be a conversation with someone about what they have been up to recently. This is the way that I want to go about it. I'll still continue to play this game as long as I can enjoy it every time I play it from now on outward. I believe this is something I can do. I never truly want to give something up once I have sobered up from my depressive stupor. I want to look more and more to find a solution, and right now, I'm working to find a solution to having fun with the game, because I honestly do want to improve and enjoy the game.

I'm not sure how I would handle this for when practicing by myself. I'm not sure if I should practice only 2 or 3 times a week, every day, or not at all. I would think that at least some practice each week is beneficial to make sure I don't get rusty, and to drill in more of that tech that I've been wanting to implement and "do it in my sleep" as tm puts it. It's not hard to have fun when playing with other people, cause I just have to not take friendlies seriously and just goof around and have fun with it, interact with the people that I'm playing, just have a good time. I should probably also have that same "don't give a ****" mentality when playing tournament, cause that could be a more fun way of looking at how to play tournaments, but I have to actually try it first before I can confirm that. I know for certain though that if something gets stuck on my mind, I can easily just distract myself with something else in order to stop thinking that way before it becomes a miserable experience.

Again, thanks for at least trying to help me out. It shows that you care and that means a lot to me.

 

[spider_sense]

Sick combo vid Coast, you should have told me you were making this. I would have sent you some nasty ass combos on my end lol.

@ RedmanSSBM - Sounds like you just need a break, it may be because you plateau but that happens dude. Just stay the core and keep your head up. Ganon is by no means an easy character to win with but it can be done. Sit with the game and move at your own pace until it feels natural to play. I might have to randomly go to your region and win a local to lift your spirits up. We'll team or some **** lol. Also, you don't have to play everyday; just once or twice a week with about an hour of tech skill practice. The fundamentals aspect comes with just playing others.

 

[spider_sense]

Also Skytch this sort of works as a double edged sword, but talking to yourself whenever something happens will keep you focused and aware of what's happening. Just approach it from a learning standpoint rather than trying to play to win. You'll end up with much better results imo.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Also Skytch this sort of works as a double edged sword, but talking to yourself whenever something happens will keep you focused and aware of what's happening. Just approach it from a learning standpoint rather than trying to play to win. You'll end up with much better results imo.

Funny that you mention that because I actually talk to myself a lot when I'm by myself. But yeah, I get what you mean. I'm sure as long as I keep an open mind and play to learn and have fun, I will naturally get better over time. I just have to let those negative thoughts go and just not be nit-picky with myself. I'm making it a goal of mine to have fun with this game and really enjoy it up to and including Apex. After Apex will be a bit of a drop-off, but of course I'll still be playing

Dude, if you came to a local that'd be amazing hahaha.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Also, please @ spider_sense , just call me by my new tag or first name; Loc or Locke. I'm just more used to being called that than my current username

 

[Coastward]

glad you guys like the video, took me a while to make that haha.

so aside from @ tm , none of you guys are going to sweet?

 

[Renth]

Sick combo vid Coast, you should have told me you were making this. I would have sent you some nasty *** combos on my end lol.

Same, I would have sent him things that made all of your things look like trash

 

[Coastward]

maybe ill make a 2nd one in the future

anyways, since im heading to montreal tomorrow, i wont have access to internet. so,

MERRY CHRISTMAS HOMIES

it's been a great year and i'm glad i got to meet and play with a bunch of you. hope you guys have a good christmas/kwanza/hanukkah/festivus/whatever.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Could we take a minute to talk about the Falco matchup? I just played a different Falco friend of mine (yes, most of my friends play Falco, what a shocker) and he told me that Ganon can do the matchups pretty well since he knocks Falco off stage and he just died early. Yet, if Ganon can't get in on Falco and Falco just combos the ever-living piss out of you, then what's to say? What would be a good way of slowing Falco down? Cause once Falco gets momentum, he goes in. Maybe I should camp platforms more? How does run away, get hit by laser to turn you around, and then jab him sound?

I feel like we haven't talked about specific matchups in a while, and Falco is still a big matchup for me.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Who knew there was a Chilean Ganon. I didn't. He's pretty damn stylish too! Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W29e5WsR5fc & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHDHrHOh0pM

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Stylish but SDs almost every stock

Worth it imo

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

@ RedmanSSBM point was kindof that sometimes you need a break and sometimes there is no solution other than to just push the rock up the hill, idk whatever maybe I'm wrong I can be an emotional person and I dislike seeing negative **** like that because it reminds me of myself in the past and I tried so damn hard and spent so long looking for a solution when the only thing that really helped was, for back of a better way to state it, manning the **** up and pushing forward in life

anyway

@ Coastward the video was awesome

as for the Falco matchup, **** me I don't know how to deal with spacies without bair and lasers shut that down so yeah **** falco

and on an unrelated note
who here is going to take my money at apex?
and merry Christmas all

 

[tm]

I'm sure you can, especially seeing as falcon's side-b doesn't push you as far away as ganon's does, but you can grab falcon after side-b most of the time (I have no idea when you can't and why not), and a grab is usually a much better punish than an up air vs. falcon.

If you powershield it or have a full shield and don't SDI in, you generally won't be able to grab. Kinda depressing

I totally stand by what I said about a free place to crash. 2 nights if necessary! Unfortunately, needing to know the weekends in advance is a little tough because I'm not really in the Chicago area all that often due to school, so it's usually a pretty last minute thing when I do attend. The next one I go to, I can give you a 2 week notice, does that sound ok?

And the facebook group you're looking for is called Chicago-land melee. The cover photo actually lists all of the local events, so that's really convenient. It's also a public group, so go ahead and join whenever. The Chicago land scene is mad cool too, so feel free to post whatever / whenever and you can expect a response.

Sounds great dude, and I just joined that group so I'll know when to keep things open.

edit: Actually, tm, there are a couple things I noticed off the bat.
First, stop trying to grab dash attack lol. I'm sure you already know this, and it looks so grab-able, but it's just like ganon's side-b- you can grab it with shield DI, but the timing is tricky and it's deceptive, you basically have to read it. (Don't worry, I do it all the time too)

There are better punishes. Stomp or bair work, but with stomp, they have time to put up their shield, so they'll likely shield it. I suppose empty hop grab would work here. They can put their shield up for bair as well, but it's safer on shield than a dair. Maybe wavedash oos into grab for the mix up?

not being able to punish things on shield T_T
thanks for pointing things out. Sad that the best you can get is RPS on that. If they totally overshoot I think you can get upB OoS, otherwise should probably go for grab/jab. Maybe I'll try late dair to cover spot dodge or try to shield poke if they shield.

 

[Tribulation]

I am wondering how you guys deal with turnips. I seem to do pretty well against the peaches here until they have a turnip in their hand. Then I just don't seem to be able to get around it, and when I get hit, it leads into combos. I've tried hitting them away like Samus missiles, but that does not seem to work. I thought about catching them, but I'm not exactly good at that yet and if they are close, I feel like I would just be focusing on catching the turnip and then I would just get hit by whatever attack peach was following it up with.

 

[Superspright]

Turnips mainly deal with you. There are certain zones where they can't be beaten/you have to guess. Your best bet is to learn to powershield then when they are far away then drop the shield and punish. From close range, grabbing and z-dropping works well, or throwing them back immediately, but this has its own problems. Essentially you want to keep her from even pulling a turnip. If she's in wizkick range and tries to pull one wizkick her. You'll have to make a read but there are plenty of times she's not safe to pull that she thinks she is. Unlike Falco or Fox she has to be grounded to get her projectile. Make sure she doesn't feel safe on the ground with a solid grab and tilt game. Don't be afraid to dash attack her either. If you time it right you'll beat almost all her options except shield->grab. Turnips blow. Learn to work around them, or make them impossible to use. A combination of both is best.

 

[-ACE-]

Just midair Z grab them and either toss them back or immediately drop it (double tap Z). Your positioning (zoning skills) and movement in the neutral game should limit her opportunities of setting up a safe turnip approach. Don't get stuck in shield, stay mobile.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm sure you can, especially seeing as falcon's side-b doesn't push you as far away as ganon's does, but you can grab falcon after side-b most of the time (I have no idea when you can't and why not)

If you time your grab early enough so that falcon doesn't get to lean back, you'll get the grab. You can also get the grab later if you ASSDI (automatic shield sdi, I think this is the acronym I have seen the most) the hit in. @ tm Surprisingly powershielding doesn't matter even though it increases pushback, because the pushback is so small. You can even powershield grab without ASSDI like you can with normal full shield, if you grab early enough.

Ganons side b you can only grab with SSDI in. It's not hard though.

 

[tm]

If you time your grab early enough so that falcon doesn't get to lean back, you'll get the grab. You can also get the grab later if you ASSDI (automatic shield sdi, I think this is the acronym I have seen the most) the hit in. @ tm Surprisingly powershielding doesn't matter even though it increases pushback, because the pushback is so small. You can even powershield grab without ASSDI like you can with normal full shield, if you grab early enough.

Ganons side b you can only grab with SSDI in. It's not hard though.

Maybe my timing is poor, but I've missed PS grab many times, and I also believe that I've missed shieldgrab with ASDI in. Maybe I'll test these for frame leniency. It might even be easier to grab him on the way in. Maybe even reverse dash grab.

 

[tauKhan]

@ tm You are probably grabbing late, at least I do that often. Raptor boost does deceptively low shieldstun. To be honest, I didn't even know that you could grab the raptor boost without ASSDI prior to my experiments to find out answer to @ PseudoTurtle 's question.

If you succeed in ASSDI, you'll get very close to cf, so I don't think you could miss the grab in that case.

 

[Coastward]

IM BACK GUYS

AND I DONT HAVE NEW GANON TECH TO SHARE.

 

[n0ne]

@ Coastward yo sick vid

No love 4 me? I main dorf too

Dissapointed, dropping dorf as of now

 

[Renth]

IM BACK GUYS

AND I DONT HAVE NEW GANON TECH TO SHARE.

That's because this characters meta was fully explored by 2007. - probably even long before that.

 

[n0ne]

@Moy ......
....

loooooool at least i got back to you before 2015. aaaaanyways

vs Harrythechin
solid playing overall, good edgarding, nice spacing with those bairwalls, i didnt notice anything wrong vs the fox except missing tech reads, and not grabbing enough, remember to mix down throw with a jab after it, usually ppl miss the tech and u can follow up. Against link i feel u werent CCing enough, idk.

vs Gravy
yea... i feel like this isnt one of ur best matches. Whole set long u coudnt get decent footing to get something started, he was just throwing moves out, and u were in bad positions most of the time. on small stages, Bair and Dair a bit more to threaten falcons movement abuse, looks like hes more used to the ditto than vs dorf. Again, u need to grab more when u have the chance, instead of jabbing shields.

vs Cheato
Against Peach (AND samus), nairing all the time IS NOT SAFE. Youll only get CCed to down smash. At big house 4, i told darkrain that he got 4 stocked by armada because of this sole thing. usually u wanna abuse falling up airs and stomps, Nairs only for juggling. U were Dashdancing.... but in a weird way. like ... u didnt actually move around with dash dances, just stood in one small area and got punished for it nearly everytime. DDing with falcon is to improve mobility/bait/threaten, yet when u DD u do neither of the three. Try to alternate ur dash dance lengths AND intervals, thats when DDing looks scary. Also u like forgot for like half the set that the L and R buttons are for shielding. never forget that. DDing IS NOT a replacement for shield.

 

[tm]

@ tm You are probably grabbing late, at least I do that often. Raptor boost does deceptively low shieldstun. To be honest, I didn't even know that you could grab the raptor boost without ASSDI prior to my experiments to find out answer to @ PseudoTurtle 's question.

If you succeed in ASSDI, you'll get very close to cf, so I don't think you could miss the grab in that case.

So I tested this today:
If you shield without ASDI, you have a 3 frame window to get the grab as soon as you're out of shield stun, or you'll whiff (which he can punish). If you are holding shield towards him when he hits you, you will ASSDI in, but it doesn't matter because he stops shorter due to your shield 'extending' your hurtbox, and it's still a 3 frame window. And for powershielding, it happens to be that same 3 frame window (except that you have grounded options, so you can potentially dtilt / ftilt instead). This is mostly because ganon's poor grab range combined with falcons animation after the uppercut. Uair after shielded raptor boost has to be frame perfect to hit (on the jump OoS first frame out of stun, and uair on first frame airborne). Not really worth it imo. UpB OoS has a 3 frame window, worth considering at higher %s (don't do when falcon is below 7%, as he won't get knocked down and will get a free knee with you having no double jump).

My conclusion: try to spotdodge raptor boost on reaction. If you get him to fall over, you can stomp him as long as he wasn't too close to you when he started the raptor boost (and if you spot dodge very late, you might have to be frame perfect). Even if he goes through you pretty far, you can generally bair or grab at worst.

If you can't spotdodge in time, but you shield it, try to SSDI in, as this extends your grab window from 3 frames to 8, which is very lenient. Shield ASDI will NOT help you!

I also tested jumping over him, but it's very hard to do quick enough on pure reaction unless he's so far away that it would barely hit you to begin with. Also messed around with air dodging, but that's not good unless you triangle jump very well, and even then you don't get any extra options.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Awesome info, tm! Good to know I'm just a little slow every time I miss the grab. So, yea, up air oos DOES work then, but, like you said, not really worth it, especially since you can just grab at lower percents for a harder punish or up-b for about the same punish at higher percents, which is easier to execute. Up air oos is still viable against a ganon side-b on shield, up to this point, at least in my experience.

Guys, keep a look out for Moy. He did very, very well at the last EXPosure tournament, and I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next couple of months, he's on the list of ganons who have surpassed my skill level.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

@ Coastward yo sick vid

No love 4 me? I main dorf too

Dissapointed, dropping dorf as of now

LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE COAST

 

[n0ne]

Wait what is this talk on raptor boost? U guys DO know raptor boost punishes spotdodges in the first place right? Ive connected reverse boostsin the past. Raptor boost is so jank, sometimes its safe on shield, sometimes it isnt, and it can be shield grabbed.

Idk why i havent seen anyone mention just CCing it. CC is the best way to deal with it

Edit: high five for ''Totally Likeable'' trophy, i made it

 

[-ACE-]

You can spot dodge it on reaction easily. It punishes read spot dodges.

 

[tauKhan]

@ tm Nice work! Spot dodge dair sounds pretty good.

Turns out I ignored two variables in my tests: shield size and the distance at which the falcon starts the raptor boosts. I thought that the action boxes of the raptor boost don't hit shield but they do. If your shield is small, it's then possible to get late grab via ASSDI. It's still better to spotdodge dair though. Also if the falcon hits your shield early on the raptor boost animation, he ends up closer to you so he can be grabbed later. Maybe the best way to punish raptor boost is dair from long distance and shield grab from short distance.

 

[-ACE-]

How about holding away to keep the shield IN so that the shield is farther away to begin with? As long as you know the incoming approach won't shield poke (I don't feel like raptor boost would), you maybe be able to shield ASDI/SDI inward and get the grab for sure.

I'm pretty drunk but. .. thoughts?

 

[tauKhan]

Sounded too fun not to try out; unfortunately it doesn't work unless you A/SSDI in, in which case you could've just SSDI'd in and get the grab anyway.

 

[Aephage]

Hey guys, i'm still trying to progress with my ganon, but I really need to figure how the sheik matchup works haha
here is a recent match i played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj7ye_X_Xo0&t=8m41s (I skipped the first part where I was playing puff)
If you guys can give me advices that would be great

 

[Superspright]

How about holding away to keep the shield IN so that the shield is farther away to begin with? As long as you know the incoming approach won't shield poke (I don't feel like raptor boost would), you maybe be able to shield ASDI/SDI inward and get the grab for sure.

I'm pretty drunk but. .. thoughts?

It can't shield poke. The hitbox all comes out at once on frame 3 and it's huge. The probability of it hitting your hurtbox without hitting your shield is nigh. I powershield ****ty raptor boosts all day. I usually use up-b or jab to punish.

If you're having trouble doing the powershield punish just time it to the contact box hitting you. You have a 4 frame gap where you can powershield non-projectiles. Given that it comes out in 3 frames you will get it 100% of the time.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Aephage You played well vs. the Sheik up until those last two stocks on FoD. You got caught in your shield a lot and sheik punished you every time for trying to jump out of it. You didn't really DI any of her combos, so you took a lot of percent. You threw out dash attack when she was high up in the air, either those were mistakes or just poor decisions. I definitely think you should upair more to zone her out when she's in the air. Don't over commit with jumping because that's where Sheik wants you to be if you jump first. I believe if you react to her jumping and do a well spaced instant upair, you can stuff her aerial shenanigans. You also need to grab the ledge more when she is offstage.