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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
speaking of training, i've begun to do some serious partner training. i used to only train by myself and use friendlies as a way to try out new things and what i practiced at home. but i'm starting to see that training with a second person provides so many benefits.

for example, right now we're going through all marth's (it's really weird, but so many ****ing people play marth in new england. 20xx has not spread here yet) common moves and figuring out different ways to punish them depending on certain approaches and other things. i'm compiling a list of what works and starring things that i'll need to practice more. we're going to do this with all the common characters and perhaps the mid tiers later.

we're also practicing for doubles, as we'd like to actually have a consistent team. it's going to be tough though. i'm pretty much expected to play support here and my playstyle caters more towards going in. i don't like having to drastically alter my playstyle this much, but i guess it'll have to be done. i've been told that i'm a patient player by much better players so hopefully i can use that trait to my advantage in doubles, as i'll be hanging back a lot.
 
RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
So against Falcon, if he's at 0% and on the ground, how should I try to knock him down? The only moves that knock him down consistently at 0% are fair and dair. I know I can use up angled ftilt and instant upair to stuff falcon in the air, but What about him on the ground? A lot of retreating fairs good and full hop dairs good? Just wondering what to do on a fresh stock sometimes. The same could also apply to Fox and Falco.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
I'm pretty sure you can cause knockdown with:

d throw
up throw
up angled f tilt (maybe not zero, but low percents)
side b
down b (not sure)
up smash (either c0ck blast or if you're under a platform and up smash him)

Retreating fairs and full hop dairs are very good for stuffing fast fallers. They usually require a read to be safe. Don't fish for any of the above moves, though. Try to read what style he'll be playing. If he's up in stocks, he'll most likely be playing a little more aggressive, especially if his percent was high before he lost the previous stock because that don't-get-hit-or-you-die anxiety is gone. If he's down, he might throw the nairs out like an idiot- many players will actually get a bit more aggressive here, hoping to start a combo and gain some momentum. If he's smart, he'll play it a little safer and dash dance. Remember, you can crouch cancel nair up to pretty high percents, don't let him throw it out for free. Also, If you're at ~80%, you can assume he's going to try and dash dance grab (for that free knee). When they're invincible, I either camp the ledge or spam buffered rolls- they're actually pretty tough to punish if you mix up the direction of the roll.

These are just some basic patterns I've noticed when playing people and it seems to be rather universal, regardless of character. I've definitely noticed that I also have these habits and have to sort of force myself to calm down a little bit and not give in to my anxiety (or lack thereof). Smash is a really deep game lol
 
GanonMaster

GanonMaster

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
127
Location
Trondheim, Norway
NNID
Dragmirejr
hmm, I think Ganons side b is 100 % cc-able with fastfallers until high percentage. If they don't cc, it may cause knockdown tho, idk tbh...
 
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RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Messages
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Greensboro, NC
GanonMaster said:
hmm, I think Ganons side b is 100 % cc-able with fastfallers until high percentage. If they don't cc, it may cause knockdown tho, idk tbh...
Click to expand...
Coastward said:
if they crouch cancel it, it doesnt knock them down. they can crouch cancel it to i think 35ish%.
Click to expand...
Fox: Side-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 46% (29% if Fresh)
Falco: Side-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 47% (30% if Fresh)
Falcon: Side-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 53% (36% if Fresh)

From my Knockdown Data Thread.
 
Yort

Yort

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
168
Location
Georgia
Renth said:
Alright I'm done being emo about getting 16th out of 100+ people. Back to training.
Click to expand...
I'm in no position as a player to critique you or any of you guys play since you're much better and more experienced than me, but I did notice that you kept getting very upset with yourself every time you made a mistake. For example when you SDed vs. porkchops you got pretty angry at yourself and threw your fist down. Physical actions and mental actions that induce anger always cloud your judgement for the rest of the game, they make you feel hopeless, and you start to over-think, or wish for it to just be over, this type of thinking always leads to this "out of body experience" for me, which I can actually relate to from my experiences in league. For example, I'm a high diamond player on league and when I'm really trying to win I know that I can't get upset with my play or my teammates play, it always results in me having an unwillingness to win, I feel like i'm just playing on reflex when I do this and I am not putting forth the effort that actually enables me to excel above other players.

I feel like if you want to be the best at smash you have to be completely calm and relaxed during play. I notice a lot of other players get incredibly demotivated when they are down two stocks etc, they'll determine that the game is over and stop attempting to win. But if your opponent can take two stocks off you before you can one, then clearly you have the ability to take those two back. If you get demotivated about being behind then you're basically admitting they're a better player then you, and you have determined that you have no ability to come back.

You guys were great people and very nice but honestly I was suprised at how upset you guys seemed when you lost, it seemed like you guys had no hope in Ganondorf as a character and just kept playing him because it's what you're used to. I felt like you were upset with your losses and blamed either yourself or Ganondorf as the fault. While the falcon players on the other hand were incredibly dedicated people, who constantly look for new tech and practice consistently.

Anyways you got 16th out of 170 people, you beat arguably Georgia's best falcon player (tubes) and played very well in the crew battle. You were very inspiring to me. Overall i'd say it was a success.

Sorry for the rambling I'm usually more reserved with my opinions.
 
Renth

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
5,938
Location
Colver, PA
Yort said:
opinions.
Click to expand...
My respect for you just quadrupled, thank you for such wonderful insight.

I am a very emotional person and am extremely hard on myself.

Thank you for the advice I will take it to very and try to handle my emotions better. You are a great person and solid player for being so new.

It was a pleasure. I was playing in a local event tonight, I died in a situation I normally never die in and I punched a desk I was sitting at very hard.
 
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Laharl's_Wrath

Laharl's_Wrath

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
109
Location
NY
Yort said:
opinions
Click to expand...
I just wanted to add this is one of the reasons I almost never play team games alone anymore, be it a moba or an fps I queue with at least one friend so someone's there when I slip into that negative feedback loop to help try to snap me out of it before things get too bad, but smash isn't a team game so it's not an option there

and if anyone hasn't read wobble's blog, I'm going to link that as he wrote a lot about mindset while competing and I found some of the articles helpful and all of them interesting or entertaining reads http://www.compete-complete.com/
 
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cptjiggles69

cptjiggles69

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
294
I am guilty of this! :(
Yort said:
I'm in no position as a player to critique you or any of you guys play since you're much better and more experienced than me, but I did notice that you kept getting very upset with yourself every time you made a mistake. For example when you SDed vs. porkchops you got pretty angry at yourself and threw your fist down. Physical actions and mental actions that induce anger always cloud your judgement for the rest of the game, they make you feel hopeless, and you start to over-think, or wish for it to just be over, this type of thinking always leads to this "out of body experience" for me, which I can actually relate to from my experiences in league. For example, I'm a high diamond player on league and when I'm really trying to win I know that I can't get upset with my play or my teammates play, it always results in me having an unwillingness to win, I feel like i'm just playing on reflex when I do this and I am not putting forth the effort that actually enables me to excel above other players.

I feel like if you want to be the best at smash you have to be completely calm and relaxed during play. I notice a lot of other players get incredibly demotivated when they are down two stocks etc, they'll determine that the game is over and stop attempting to win. But if your opponent can take two stocks off you before you can one, then clearly you have the ability to take those two back. If you get demotivated about being behind then you're basically admitting they're a better player then you, and you have determined that you have no ability to come back.

You guys were great people and very nice but honestly I was suprised at how upset you guys seemed when you lost, it seemed like you guys had no hope in Ganondorf as a character and just kept playing him because it's what you're used to. I felt like you were upset with your losses and blamed either yourself or Ganondorf as the fault. While the falcon players on the other hand were incredibly dedicated people, who constantly look for new tech and practice consistently.

Anyways you got 16th out of 170 people, you beat arguably Georgia's best falcon player (tubes) and played very well in the crew battle. You were very inspiring to me. Overall i'd say it was a success.

Sorry for the rambling I'm usually more reserved with my opinions.
Click to expand...
 
Coastward

Coastward

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Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,560
Location
Pumpkin Hill
so i might actually not be able to go to apex. school might get in the way and its hard to tell right now. i'll see how it looks next month.
 
X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Anger isn't necessarily a bad emotion to possess when you're in the heat of competition. The trick is playing in a calculated manner while angry. Some people are capable of doing it, some aren't. I think it's important to recognize what emotions cloud your judgement when you play.

For example, I play worse when I'm too relaxed because I go into auto pilot mode and that is the worst thing a ganon player can do. But I've found that I can allow myself to get angry when I play because I don't go overboard with it; it's like a methodical "I.AM.GOING.TO.TEAR.YOU.UP.BIT.BY.BIT." kind of feeling.

Furthermore, I do not believe there is a "correct" mindset for any competition. People work differently.
 
GanonMaster

GanonMaster

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
127
Location
Trondheim, Norway
NNID
Dragmirejr
I know I play the best when I know I can beat the opponent and I know he knows it. I usually don't do good if I don't have any pressure!
 
Laharl's_Wrath

Laharl's_Wrath

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
109
Location
NY
X WaNtEd X said:
Furthermore, I do not believe there is a "correct" mindset for any competition. People work differently.
Click to expand...
This is something I feel like a lot of people miss

Like, I don't play well when angry or when super calm, there's just this perfect amount of arrogance that I need to play any game on point. But the lack of a correct mindset is a pretty big thing, people always say not to go into things thinking you'll lose, I firmly sit in the "I am/we are **** and going to get stomped hard" mindset up until shortly before actually sitting down and getting ready, that negative mindset removes a lot of the stress for me while also driving home a "better work your ass off and try hard." Then shortly before playing take that negativity, go "what the **** do I know, I worked hard it's time to kick some ass"

....I need to practice melee more, I suck too much
anyone have any advice for solo practice routines outside of practicing moving around stage?

also, not yet 100% confirmed for apex but it's looking pretty damn likely, anyone willing to sit down with me and offer halp when there?
 
RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

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Messages
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I'd like to give my 2 cents on what mindset works for me. I feel like when I get angry it's actually the opposite for me from Hulk, when I get angry I tend to go into auto-pilot mode and just get frustrated and then I just really want to force myself to play well and it just ends with me being upset and down on myself for the rest of the day. I find that staying calm actually helps me to play and think better. Now, I don't play completely super relaxed like I just hit a bong calm, but it's more of a focused and intense calm with myself that allows me to channel my focusing power.

Laharl's_Wrath said:
anyone have any advice for solo practice routines outside of practicing moving around stage?

also, not yet 100% confirmed for apex but it's looking pretty damn likely, anyone willing to sit down with me and offer halp when there?
Click to expand...
Have you practiced doing perfect wavelanding consistently? Get good with basic tech skill first like wave-dashing out of shield, cause you're gonna realize later on just how useful that is going to be in an actual match. I use it almost all the time now.

If I see you at Apex I'll definitely sit down and play friendlies and show you a thing or two about Ganon :)
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
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Messages
11,536
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The back country, GA
I'm like GanonMaster in the sense that confidence is most important. I've been playing this game so long I know what I should do in almost any situation. I can be deadly if I don't slip into auto-pilot or lack motivation to focus. In these cases I'll simply forget to do things that I can easily do, letting opportunities arise and vanish, unseized.
 
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Coastward

Coastward

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i feel like i havent contributed much to the board lately, so im gonna start a new project.

im gonna write a pros/cons list for every option for every move in any imaginable situation for the top characters against ganondorf. hopefully this'll improve my decisiom making as i write it out.
 
n0ne

n0ne

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
509
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Coastward said:
got 9th in melee and 7th in pm with ganon

@ n0ne n0ne put me in losers in melee and took me out in pm, feels bad. shoulda chaingrabbed.

VODs will be up later.
Click to expand...
U said that last time as well.....

And im still waiting :(

@ Moy Moy dont think i forgot about inputting on ur match, ive just been very busy since i started a full time job and some other stuff. Ill review it this weekend, moving in to my new home tonight so after that stuff should be a bit smoother
 
Moy

Moy

Where's the coffee cake?
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Slippi.gg
MOY#56
n0ne said:
@ Moy Moy dont think i forgot about inputting on ur match, ive just been very busy since i started a full time job and some other stuff. Ill review it this weekend, moving in to my new home tonight so after that stuff should be a bit smoother
Click to expand...
No problem man, there's no rush.

I placed 7th at my local on Wednesday, better than I've done since last year when there was much less talent. A lot of top players were missing (Kels, Dart, Vro), but I still felt like I played pretty well. I ended up 7-stocking a Falco player who isn't bad and defeated DLA in the ditto.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Messages
16,250
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Montreal, Quebec
Wow I was reading the first few pages of this thread. It's pretty funny.. lol. I really didn't give a crap and just went along what I thought was right for me at the time. There's also some funny game wisdom too.
 
Coastward

Coastward

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Pumpkin Hill
n0ne said:
U said that last time as well.....

And im still waiting :(
Click to expand...
im not in charge of the videos anymore, too much on my hands to worry about it. i think the s@y2 vods got corrupted but someone is ripping last weekend's tourney. i dont have an ETA but theyre gonna be uploaded.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
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Messages
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The back country, GA
GanonMaster said:
I played a lot of Ganon dittos yesterday, andI feel the mu is 30 % neutral and 70 % gimps lol
Click to expand...
Hard to say. Gimping Ganon is very easy, and winning an exchange in the neutral game easily leads to getting the other Ganon offstage.... so neutral game is actually really big imo.
 
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