Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[tm]

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/b/588146700

Last Wednesday @ VS

3:21 - Prof (Marth)
3:59 - Blea (Luigi)
4:39 - Rula (Falco)
4:47 -Bamboozle King/Elliot (Peach)

Yes, love these.

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/c/5494999

you missed a spot. the last game is a personal favourite.

and that. Spidey fan here. (that wizard foot against blea!!!)

 

[-ACE-]

Man, I need to get back to FL soon.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Spidey, why was that not included????

That WF spike. God DAMN

Haha, overall very good play. I always enjoy watching your VS vids.

 

[spider_sense]

lol My bad guys I forgot to put a timestamp for that match. I played like dookie at today's tournament; I hate playing people from my region. -_-

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

lol My bad guys I forgot to put a timestamp for that match. I played like dookie at today's tournament; I hate playing people from my region. -_-

how convenient that you'd play badly when some of the better players from orlando would come down.

 

[spider_sense]

lol It sucks because I didn't even get to play anyone from CFL. I had to play Blea and Zidane lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Psssshhh.....

Inactive.

 

[Kar]

Hi.

To introduce myself, I'm a young french Ganondorf player and I'm looking for some advices since most people here are waaaaaaaay better than me. I live in a city with a small community, and we rarely have a good player to play against, so I thought you american dudes could help me to get better because no one here can do so.
I may look like a total noob and it's probably what I am so I dont mind if you're nasty as long as you're helpful, I just want to improve myself


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsn99SwV6ms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqaOB61aHRc (starts at 3:50)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zglc7p9PSo0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy8tcyzl5TA (starts at 1:42)

(don't pay attention about my fox, I switched because I had the feeling that I couldn't win with ganon)

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Oh cool new blood. I'll watch those videos momentarily.

I played vs a Peach/Sheik main last night at a local tournament and got my ass handed to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r10x68uoJFE

I'm inexperienced in the matchup, but some critiquing would be appreciated.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ K Kar Dude you play pretty solidly. How long have you been playing Ganon exactly? You have movement down pretty decently and even some of your punishes are good as well. I think you shouldn't be jumping so much cause Marth gets you in the air. My first impression of you is good.

 

[Kar]

I started to play Melee in September 2013, when I moved to Bordeaux to go to college.
I'm glad you have a good first impression, I really didn't expect that lol, but that may be because my opponents here are not good players. My main problem is the neutral game. I might look quite good against players who are worse than me because as you say, my punish game is correct, but once I play against a better opponent, I'm often unable to find good opportunities and consequently can't punish at all.
I think you're 100% right about how much I jump, I thought trying to space that Marth player with aerials would be a good strategy but when I watch this it seems that I was completely wrong lol
What should I do instead ? I couldn't find opportunities because he was almost always controling the stage or dash dancing in the neutral game. I think the lack of stage control was the source of my problem against this Marth, but I have no idea how I could get it

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I started to play Melee in September 2013, when I moved to Bordeaux to go to college.
I'm glad you have a good first impression, I really didn't expect that lol, but that may be because my opponents here are not good players. My main problem is the neutral game. I might look quite good against players who are worse than me because as you say, my punish game is correct, but once I play against a better opponent, I'm often unable to find good opportunities and consequently can't punish at all.
I think you're 100% right about how much I jump, I thought trying to space that Marth player with aerials would be a good strategy but when I watch this it seems that I was completely wrong lol
What should I do instead ? I couldn't find opportunities because he was almost always controling the stage or dash dancing in the neutral game. I think the lack of stage control was the source of my problem against this Marth, but I have no idea how I could get it

You want to grab marth and shield his dumb aerial approaches. You can CC fair and grab right after, you can even full hop stomp Marth to do some serious damage. filts are your friend, shield is your friend when you're not getting grabbed. Make the marth shield more and you grab. You get a lot off of grabbing Marth.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, @ K Kar , you're pretty good. I didn't watch too much, but I got into your match with the puff. Or Rondoudou (wat).

Your fundamentals and tech skill are both pretty solid, but I think you need to take note of what your opponent is doing. For example, no puff player should be able to side b that much and get away with it haha. That move is so bad when spammed like that.

There's some other obvious stuff that I see, such as certain spacing problems, a few minor tech flubs, etc. Over all, I'm extremely impressed that you've only been playing since 2013. Keep up the good work.

@ RedmanSSBM , I'd give you some advice, but those are my two very worst match ups. The good thing about living in a super stacked region like Chicago is that I get to play super good players all the time. I haven't lost to a marth since almost 8 months ago, but scrubs beat me with sheik / peach. I got beat in pools by a sheik player who didn't make it out... lol. Which is why I ended up with 3rd seed, rather than 2nd. I've kind of earned myself fraud status in the Chicago scene for beating good players who use familiar characters and losing to scrubs who use sheik / peach.

Anyway, I did watch, and, while I can't give any match up advice, I can say that you're still messing up your survival DI. When peach is floating and you're recovering high, you can usually guess with 99.999% certainty that she's gonna bair you. Be prepared and DI that. It does hit an a weird angle, but it's livable. Again, I don't really know what's safe and what's not in this MU, but you can up air a lot more than seems safe. Peach likes to threaten you with a turnip, but you can either up air her before she throws it out or time your up air so that you either trade or beat it completely. 1:54 is an example of this.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ K Kar marth is one of my favorite match ups. I'll go ahead and give some critique and edit in things as I see them. First off, you DI'd in every single time you got grabbed. This is problematic for a couple reasons: if you're by the ledge and DI in, marth will have no problem throwing out a d tilt. Essentially, this means you lose your stock. Luckily, this didn't happen at 0:55 because your percent was low, but I promise if you were ~10% higher, you would have lost your stock. At 0:58, you DI'd in again and got combo'd (which should have led to death, but your opponent SD'd... lol).

Marth is a different matchup than what you may be used to. You can't just out space marth with your hitboxes, like you would vs, say, falcon because marth has larger ones. In my experience vs. marth, you normally have to wait until they whiff and then come in an punish- it's like how your opponents play vs. ganon. Sometimes dash dancing is good, sometimes you want to wait for the nair and then punish, etc.

Marth fairs are NOT safe on shield. If a marth ever hits your shield with a fair, you get a free up air. They have to delay the fair if they want it to be safe, and if you read that, then you can just up air as soon as they jump to stuff it before it comes out. Fair from marth is never safe as an approach.

Don't waveland around so much. Marth is best approached from the ground. Marths love it when you get above them (just like ganon!), so why make it easier? Dash dance a little, mix up your movement, and wait for him to come in. Oh, also, if you're expecting a forward smash from your opponent, full hop into fair. Full hop fair gets around fsmash and up tilt. A lot of marth players like to fsmash by the ledge as well- if you're fast enough, you can get to the center and bair on your way down. It's kind of rare, generally requires a read, but it's a viable work-around.

 

[GanonMaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashnorge/b/589075920

Ganon dittos at 1:39:25, I think I know why I usually win them, but it would be interesting to hear your take on it.

also, game one was such a failure x) I am Dragmirejr btw. the other ganon is @ Gliffie

EDIT: Hi Kar, I'll watch your sets/games soon, I have to eat some brownies first <3

 

[GanonMaster]

okay, I've watched some vids, and I think I saw some stuff. I may be wrong about stuff, but it may be worth thinking about anyways

@ RedmanSSBM I can see you lack experience against Peach, cause the Peach is doing really basic Peachstuff. When peach are on the side platforms, there is no point in aproaching her. You got a Downsmash to the face for doing it, so I guess you learned your lesson x) what I usually do if Peach is over me is depended on what kind of peach it is, but usually I either wait for the d-smash, or I just take Stage controll. Peach is actually not that scary when coming down from a platform, since uair beats her dair and fair is pretty readable.

Bairs are really hard to deal with tho, especially when recovering. Since the Peach didn't try to throw turnips at you when you where offstage, I'd try to recover low more often. The reason why is because for mixups and for being able to walltech. After a walltech you can to a lot of thing, but the safest is either walljumptech bair or walltech upb.

Also, you seemed kinda scared of peach, but let me tell you this. Afaik ganon fair is very safe on Peaches shield! If you space fair correctly peach shouldn't be able to do a cr*p, so that is something. Also, if you are in the lead, Camp the top plattform. Some Peaches gets really frustrated of it and do silly things.

one last thing, many peaches do dsmash after float canceled aerials. if she spaces max range you can wavedash backwards oos or roll and punish her with a dair if she dsmashes. If she doesn't dsmash, pressure her with a fair. Grabs are really good against her, but Peach is superhard to grab so that must be a mixup

Against Sheik, It is a mu I've given up, so ggs

@ K Kar Your Ganon is looking decent, but it looks like you lack tourney experience. As for the mu's I think most of the things are said, but it may be worth thinking about that Marth can't kill you at all if you are on the top platform. Bait some uairs and find a way to get down safely


Hopefully you think about stuff yourself, and don't take my "advice" without thinking about it. But these are my tips

 

[Gliffie]

I was about to post that set myself. We should get it up on YouTube.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

**** yessssss, more euro ganondorfs. we need that!

 

[Kar]

Thanks a lot guys I will make good use of these advices

@ RedmanSSBM I know grabs are really really good against marth but I didn't know how to make him shield, and I was scared to approach with grabs because of his spacing, his spotdodges and dashdances. Does anyone have any tip about that ?

@ GanonMaster Yes I lack experience against good players a lot, Bordeaux is located in the South West of France, and almost all big tourneys are in the East (Lyon, Montpellier, Grenoble etc...) or in Paris. I went to only 4 tournaments this year (including Republic of Fighters 3), I'm kinda frustrated about that but I think it will be better in the future.

@ PseudoTurtle Thanks. I'm not used to play this way, because I'm not that good at baiting and reading yet (and I'm probably not as patient as I should). But I think my global understanding of the game has improve a lot recently so I might get better at it quickly. It's hard to explain, but I feel like I can't really make my knowledge and analysis useful because this game is really fast haha, I have to transform all that stuff into habits and automatic reflexes. I guess it comes with practice. Anyway thanks a lot that's gonna help for sure

 

[-ACE-]

@ K Kar

It's a zoning matchup. You can compete with his range if you can keep a half step ahead of him.

Fully spaced bair beats anything.

Be selective with fair or you'll get bodied.

Uair is golden when he jumps and at short range (retreating uair scoop)

Nair is a great way to put him on a platform at low to low/mid% and get a free techchase. Use this after a dthrow or dair when platforms are around.

You beat marth by getting him offstage and edgeguarding him.

If he is spamming sh double fairs, and you shield the first one, you can uair oos before the second one (won't work if he spaces the fair well).

Shield DI is your friend. Use it to change your position in close quarters while you're being pressured. For instance, if you shield his fair, and you're holding down and in, you can get shield grabs much more often.

If he approaches you aggressively and goes through you, aim your bair oos for the tip of his head (shield poke).

If you condition him to shield when expecting an aerial, either fastfall and tomahawk or don't ff and aim the heel of Ganon's boot on marth's exposed feet (shield poke).

Grab, grab, grab. You can obviously aerial out of it and get a guaranteed hit, but try to get 2 and actually send him offstage (like I said nair is great for this at low-ish%.

If you shield a fsmash, you can wavedash oos and grab him.

You can chaingrab him to like 15% (definitely 2 regrabs if you don't pummel) and more if he DI'S full behind.

ASDI, and SDI his hits away/down + away, and get back on your feet ASAP. Never make it easy for him to maintain control.

Don't over-commit to ANYTHING. Try to "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee"

That's just off the top of my head. Try searching these boards. This matchup has been discussed a ton on here.

Some crucial basic marth tips brotha.

 

[Gliffie]

This is the ditto between me and @ GanonMaster we were talking about. Gotta love the super chokes.

 

[-ACE-]

You guys need to work on efficiency. You actually both impressed me, but Ganon ditto advice requires specifics and I don't have a computer yet. Can't type all this sh*t on my phone. And I got a hot chick here in GA that won't give me a night off LOL. but try to space aerials better, think about ground game (high ftilt, grab), less b-moves, less guessing when chaingrabbing, be more immediate out of shield, and generally concentrate more on neutral game. And do the RockCrock. Lol. Not bad though tbh. Keep up the good work.

 

[Linguini]

Yo jason looking mad smooth, I still have to teach you some basic stuff though that I feel will improve your game. Lets get some games next week, i'll be in town.

Played fox at the 1st tourney i've gone to in months..got wrecked lmao....next time i'm sticking with ganon even though I can't L cancel dairs. I hate how with other characters you have to pick and choose your kill moves.

With ganon you just hit em'

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao Emilio just hit R twice till you get the timing back down.

 

[GanonMaster]

ye, misspaced aerials where one of the key things I saw when looking back at the matches. makes me wanna puke :S
also, gotta work on my techskill so I can move more fluently, I look like a heavy rock when playing lol.

EDIT: Le salt game 1 too stronk x)

 

[Gliffie]

Better stop maining Peach then

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Honest to God I have a good friend of mine that plays both spacies pretty well and I consider him my training partner and doubles partner, but each time he suggest I play Fox I always instantly say no, cause I never want to play that character not because he's the best character, but because he's the most popular character, and I really really dislike the 20XX bull****.

but lol @ L Linguini that made me laugh. I hope next CEO you can get your **** together and ACTUALLY teach me a thing or two

 

[GanonMaster]

Better stop maining Peach then

Peach is more kawaii tho

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

super delayed response on my end, sorry 'bout that, busy and ****

Have you practiced doing perfect wavelanding consistently? Get good with basic tech skill first like wave-dashing out of shield, cause you're gonna realize later on just how useful that is going to be in an actual match. I use it almost all the time now.

If I see you at Apex I'll definitely sit down and play friendlies and show you a thing or two about Ganon

when it comes to practicing this is the gist of a general 8-32 minute session
starting on battlefield
5-10 seconds of dash dancing while I remember I'm holding a controller, looking at a crt, playing melee, and making ganon move
10 or so more seconds of mixing in wavedashes, wavedashing oos, and other basic ground movement to just remember the rhythm of things
then perfect wavelands off of single and double jumps off of platforms and just general wavelanding platformy movement because it's enjoyable solo play
after that I make sure I can still ledgedash, 5 in a row per side, if I **** up once then I grind that until I get 10 in a row per side without a ****up because that **** can kill you
then it's usually hit the cpu a bit to make sure I can still l-cancel and just practicing regrabs on the falco or sheik cpu
then I usually wrap things up with trying to practice whatever it is I feel I need to get down next, been short hop wavelands as of late
after 8 minutes I stop or go to dreamland to do the same thing, after 8 minutes there if I dont stop I practice on yoshis

so yeah
any recommendations for a routine? Ideally looking to optimize time spent because between work and other **** as well as those days where you cant motivate yourself, well, yknow, optimization is always good
I'm also trash at reading di when it comes to chaingrabs, might have to stop being lazy and compile the 20XX iso because practicing tech chasing would be beneficial as well

as for apex, I plan on taking you up on that offer

 

[King Mob]

super delayed response on my end, sorry 'bout that, busy and ****
any recommendations for a routine? Ideally looking to optimize time spent because between work and other **** as well as those days where you cant motivate yourself, well, yknow, optimization is always good

If you're a smoker, smoke while you practice and you'll reinforce the behavior. I suppose the same rule could apply to any reinforcing stimuli, but I don't know how well non-addictive stimuli would actually work.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

What are the most common marth approaches to practice against? What I've practiced punishing so far:

Double fair
Delayed fair
Nair
Full hop bair
Wavedash dtilt
Dash/wavedash grab
Dash/wavedash side-b

I've been having my friend do these while I find various ways to punish. Once I finish up Marth I think I'm going to move on to Fox. I've also got to find a way to practice my tech chasing without the 20xx pack. I never seem to be able to space my aerials properly when I tech chase. The one good mixup I have is the good ol' dthrow late jab mis tech fair/dair mixup around 40% on the space animals. I never mess that up.

 

[Kar]

Is the shffl nair approach with Marth punishable with uair oos ? It works pretty well against fairs but i don't know if the same goes with nairs

 

[tm]

Is the shffl nair approach with Marth punishable with uair oos ? It works pretty well against fairs but i don't know if the same goes with nairs

A good marth will autocancel his SHFF nairs, and no I don't believe that it's directly punishable.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You can up air preemptively if you feel like he's going to nair, but you have to read it. Also, like tm said, most marths will auto-cancel nair. Instead of trying to beat it, look at what he does after the nair. What many marths will do is auto-cancel nair, dash behind you (to bait out the shield grab) and then dash back and grab you.

If you do want to beat the nair when it's already out, there are options, but it's not like any one of the options ALWAYS beats nair. It depends on spacing, etc. You can beat it with down-b, side-b, and bair- the first two being a bit more situational.

I don't shield grab anymore, I just bair when it happens. It seems counter intuitive because they're in front of you, but a huge part of ganon's game is not just to hit them, it's to place a move where you believe they'll be.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

If you're a smoker, smoke while you practice and you'll reinforce the behavior. I suppose the same rule could apply to any reinforcing stimuli, but I don't know how well non-addictive stimuli would actually work.

unfortunately, don't smoke

I don't shield grab anymore, I just bair when it happens. It seems counter intuitive because they're in front of you, but a huge part of ganon's game is not just to hit them, it's to place a move where you believe they'll be.

I really have to ingrain this habit I hate Marth's nair it's the move in hit kit that leaves me clueless how to respond

 

[spider_sense]

Yo jason looking mad smooth, I still have to teach you some basic stuff though that I feel will improve your game. Lets get some games next week, i'll be in town.

Played fox at the 1st tourney i've gone to in months..got wrecked lmao....next time i'm sticking with ganon even though I can't L cancel dairs. I hate how with other characters you have to pick and choose your kill moves.

With ganon you just hit em'

lol sounds good. When you coming thru?

 

[Jammindorf]

If you're a smoker, smoke while you practice and you'll reinforce the behavior. I suppose the same rule could apply to any reinforcing stimuli, but I don't know how well non-addictive stimuli would actually work.

Smoking is a must when you play/practice Ganon

 

[Coastward]

Smoking is a must when you play/practice Ganon

omg that picture slays me

 

[Blea Gelo]

Yes, love these.


and that. Spidey fan here. (that wizard foot against blea!!!)

Yeh, that wizard foot hurt like a b****

 

[-ACE-]

Smoking is a must when you play/practice Ganon

Agreed lmao.

I actually quit smoking green Oct 1st and now 4 weeks no cigs. Eating better too, but drinking like a fish looool

Edit: PS. found out today my next job is most likely in Venice, FL. 8 weeks. Smash is inevitable.