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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Coastward

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whats his tag

also, here's a recent match between me and a really **** sheik that i lost to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNW7zjRcA94

i need to stop doing ****ing dumb things like downsmashing the up b on stage and rolling away or spot dodging when i get dash attacked on shield. I NEED TIPS I DONT KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS STUPID *****.
 
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cptjiggles69

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I would say be careful to not get grabbed. really space f airs so you don't get shield grabbed. ask ace, no smash attacks either. shiek is too quick. she seems to be vulnerable in the air to so if you can get her up that might work. And I think high percentage down throw to back air works too. I am sure that bair and up air are safe ways to edge guard her, I don't know if the tipman works. I am no pro though so who knows if this will really help
 

-ACE-

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@ Coastward Coastward :

First match

Sheik fastfalls a bair on you at 1:15 and you could have CC'd it and punished it. Even dtilt is good at first. It can be punished but it's a good mixup to throw in, but it is more useful when sheik is over 50% or so, so you can get that uair in. Sheiks love to ff bairs on you... run off of platforms with bairs, spam them... it's relatively safe in general but here you could have punished it.

1:16 - Sheik wavedashes backwards, creating space. You commit to a jump, which was actually after sheik's jump but it's so close there's no way you could have reacted. Had you not committed to anything right away, seeing her jump is a free uair. This is a key part in tournament to me.... in the beginning of the set your opponents are more likely to fall for the basic "no-no's" of fighting Ganon... then later in the match or set they adapt/learn and start to play more reserved... it's good to be able to take the easy punishes to the maximum level... get ahead and ride the momentum... as you play as carefully as possible, that is, lol (just food for thought).

1:25 - mis-spaced fair gets you shieldgrabbed, self explanatory.

1:28 - you escape the chaingrab, which is great, DI away, and straight up yolo a fair even though sheik is nowhere in sight (she had just finished dash attacking in the other direction)... because you had to L-cancel an aerial instead of just landing, or wavelanding away (or through her, if you're feeling the yolo), she was able to pressure you. she fairs your shield, gets a jab that you don't DI, and luckily she whiffs the dash, and thus, the grab.

After a great fair at 1:32 you got hungy, lol. Just grab the ledge there. recharge your invincibility by regrabbing the ledge at the last second at which sheik could possibly hit you, then a frame before that ends, stand up from the ledge. It's easier when you have over 100% obviously but this is safe and you can still get some edgehogs this way, and you never put yourself immediately into a bad situation this way so you can ledge pressure her with bair afterward.

1:37 you dash and jump at sheik from the other side of the stage while she's on a platform... you're forcing a bad situation on yourself. Better to wd forward and dash toward her (this is one of the few instances where you can wd forward vs sheik... she was on a platform and on the other side of the stage... but anyway that is better than simply running because if she comes off the platform mid wd, or even as you begin to dash forward (this is because you want to close space if she is on that platform, as LEAST find out how long she's going to stay up there... sheik being above you is free uair city.... but realize it could be a good bait so you must be ready to react quickly), you can still dash away (you'll be in dash instead of run since you wd'd forward first, so you'll have the option to dash dance, whereas if you had dashed immediately you'd no longer be in dash, you'd be in run, and be forced to wd back instead or roll or something... better to run away with bair generally imo)

1:48 - nice uair, that bread and butter. can't let opportunities like that go.

2:01 - I hate accidental fsmashes. I saw you what you were trying to do there. happens to me all the time lol

2:07 - you were too close to the edge right there when you got faired, lesson learned... the only part of you that should be that close is the tip of your bair fist when sheik is coming up from the ledge.

2:09 - fair was super readable, you get punished, you have a few tech flubs, he hits you with random attacks, then goofs up and you kill him. good sh** lol

The chaingrab you went for at 2:35 was good, just so you know, you were one throw away from mandatory jc grab territory. ~45% is the limit, after that you can't just pivot grab for DI behind. You definitely want to take the chaingrab to it's higher limits and this is a great stage for it.

2:38 - stick to uair for quick punishes on the top platform

2:40 - free uair when sheik jumps!

2:43: rogue fair gets punished. Don't commit to the aerial so soon. Had you thought "OK I'm going to fair" and halfway through said "well sheiks not even approaching like I originally had thought, screw this forward aerial idea" and just landed, you could have sheilded the dash attack she at already committed to, grabbed her, and wrecked her stock.

2:52 - one good thing to know is that if sheik (or peach for that matter) hits you with the initial frames of her dsmash like she did here, the last frame(s) of hitbox will hit you out of any walltech option. So had you walltech'd here you would have been hit. If they are hitting you with the first hit of the hitbox you have to stick to doing a regular tech and up-B. If it wasn't for this walltech to Bair would be great here, and still is good because not many people are aware of what I just mentioned.

2:58 - not a bad initial dair on that last stock... You almost got the shield poke. That is how you could be aiming the vast majority of your dairs/sh dairs OoS vs sheik. Although it is a slow aerial, there are times when you can throw it out as a mixup, primarily when you have conditioned your opponent into thinking a faster attack is coming (this is how tomahawks work).

3:01 - you could have CC'd that falling bair into something, just be mindful of that stuff.

3:15 - Don't let stylish habits force you into rolling directly in front of sheik lol

3:22 - that chaingrab. commentator says "he doesn't read the DI" lol I hope he knows that the cg is 100% reaction... unless it's fox at low/med% or falco at low%. Gotta be lethal with it since it's the only thing ganon really has on sheik.

3:25 - FREE GRAB OPPORUNITY

The rest of the match you spent too much time in the air, and too much initiating of exchanges. This sheik wasn't laying down heavy pressure, you could have slowed the pace a bit and see what she can come up with while you think of ways to bait her.

Crave the grab like Dracula does blood.
 
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Divinokage

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I have a quick question. What are your mix-ups vs Falco when he knows you want to upair below the platform but then when you commit to that option Falco is now facing you on the bottom of the stage? There seems to be no way to fight him above the stage since his jump goes too high and you must commit to the platform otherwise, which is really bad usually.
 
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-ACE-

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Yeah I wouldn't fight falco from above at all. That uair should be a retreating uair, as it can still scoop falco (hit him in the forehead on the way up). You're talking about when he's on ground level, with a platform above both of you, right?

EDIT: 6,666 posts

:BEAST:

GANONDORF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSiqsSHYQQo
 
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Divinokage

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Yeah I wouldn't fight falco from above at all. That uair should be a retreating uair, as it can still scoop falco (hit him in the forehead on the way up). You're talking about when he's on ground level, with a platform above both of you, right?

EDIT: 6,666 posts

:BEAST:

GANONDORF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSiqsSHYQQo
Ya Im talking about trying to chase Falco while he's already on a platform and Ganon is grounded on the stage. What do you do to cut him off?
 

-ACE-

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Yeah uair is solid, even on shield it's not directly punishable. If he's shielding it every time you find yourself in that situation there are obvious mixups, but I still don't know what kind of situation you're referring to. Is falco right above you, or in front of you? around tilt range away? where? and falco is just standing there? when you say "cut him off" what is he about to do to do that you'd like to cut off?

emilio I think I may have to be back at work aug 2nd now. Today I finally know something. I may be working 4 weeks straight and then having 4 weeks off. I am not sure yet though.
 
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-ACE-

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If you do a retreating uair like I mentioned before, he's not going to start a chain of combos, he won't even be able to hit you with an aerial out of the shield-drop. You could also dj after the uair and waveland off the platform into an aerial (like waveland away and ff uair or fair depending on what he does after he drops, IF he shield-drops immediately after the uair), or just waveland away instead of the situation isn't panning out like you thought it would.

if you have him conditioned to shield, lots of other options open up....
 
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Linguini

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lol good luck shield dropping ganons uair when spaced well...**** won't work. uair is ganon's best hope in 2014. Someone needs to get creative like tippy and use it to its potential....spidersense where ju at!!!!!

Peeps also need to chain combos off of grabs more effectively..not seeing it enough from ganons. No way you can win against spacies in the current high level meta if you don't **** **** off of your grabs.
 
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-ACE-

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I see grabs go wasted all the time... that is Ganon's biggest chance, his ONLY chance in many cases, to change the pace of a match against high and top tier characters. Your opponent can go from being in complete control to a complete panic as soon as you grab them. Make them fear the grab.
 

Superspright

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lol good luck shield dropping ganons uair when spaced well...**** won't work. uair is ganon's best hope in 2014. Someone needs to get creative like tippy and use it to its potential....spidersense where ju at!!!!!

Peeps also need to chain combos off of grabs more effectively..not seeing it enough from ganons. No way you can win against spacies in the current high level meta if you don't **** **** off of your grabs.
I've been experimenting with dair edge-canceled into tipman get up. That's about all I've come up with that is legit. Uair is a really good spacing tool if you can get it rising...Bizzarro has been using the thighs to scoop people under the stage a little harder than the tipman, and I've been doing something similar lately. Uair is Ganondorf's best aerial hands down. The most versatile, and the quickest. I'd say bair comes a close second followed by fair and dair and nair.

@Ace

When are one of us going to perfect the chain-grab? Even if we don't land a grab that entire match it would be probably because grabs would be so devastating. If I can keep my opponent out of my gooey inside then I can control the pace of the match much better. With chaingrabs we're more dangerous--we're lethal in fact. The only reason I feel that no one can do it consistently is because the chaingrab is very hard to do without practicing it to consistency over and over.
 
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-ACE-

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What is truly practical about edge-cancelling a dair into tipman spike? I understand it sounds awesome, just saying.

Bizz uses that thigh hitbox on the reverse uair to style on ppl from what I can see. He 3-stocked me once in dittos at MLG, doing basically a reverse uair off the full jump to down-B spike... **** was badass. I 3-stocked him back next match though. We had really good games (About 12, going even) and I wish I could play him again. He is super innovative, but lacks a few basics in Ganon dittos (despite him being better than me overall). At one point he said while laughing "How are you so good at Ganon dittos??" Haha. And I am super rusty compared to Bizz's super on-point and flashy Ganon.

I agree uair is ganon's best aerial. I also think Ganon would be nothing without his jab. His jab deserves to be a frame 2 jab just like most other characters imo. but whatever. To me speed means more than anything as skill level goes up (in matchups, as well as moves regarding the frame at which the hitbox comes out as well as the cooldown time) aka at the top level speed means moves.
 
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Divinokage

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If you do a retreating uair like I mentioned before, he's not going to start a chain of combos, he won't even be able to hit you with an aerial out of the shield-drop. You could also dj after the uair and waveland off the platform into an aerial (like waveland away and ff uair or fair depending on what he does after he drops, IF he shield-drops immediately after the uair), or just waveland away instead of the situation isn't panning out like you thought it would.

if you have him conditioned to shield, lots of other options open up....
Thing is if he does shield one of them, he can just go on the top platform and be safe immediately. Ganon can't chase that. Then if I decide to go platforms it's pretty easy for him to gain back center stage and control because of how cheap he is. lol.

But ya I agree with Linguini I need to get a lot more grab setups in that matchup specifically because if not it's easy to Ganon lose momentum completely as you take too much damage from getting shine comboed. Can't let that ****ing bird run around! It's just hard vs Bam because he knows all my patterns and also Ganon tools. He always manages to keep himself safe without me being able to punish very hard. He also switched up his patterns where I wasn't very ready for so i got owned.. he's very smart.
 
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Superspright

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What is truly practical about edge-cancelling a dair into tipman spike? I understand it sounds awesome, just saying.

Bizz uses that thigh hitbox on the reverse uair to style on ppl from what I can see. He 3-stocked me once in dittos at MLG, doing basically a reverse uair off the full jump to down-B spike... **** was badass. I 3-stocked him back next match though. We had really good games (About 12, going even) and I wish I could play him again. He is super innovative, but lacks a few basics in Ganon dittos (despite him being better than me overall). At one point he said while laughing "How are you so good at Ganon dittos??" Haha. And I am super rusty compared to Bizz's super on-point and flashy Ganon.

I agree uair is ganon's best aerial. I also think Ganon would be nothing without his jab. His jab deserves to be a frame 2 jab just like most other characters imo. but whatever. To me speed means more than anything as skill level goes up (in matchups, as well as moves regarding the frame at which the hitbox comes out as well as the cooldown time) aka at the top level speed means moves.
You must have misread what I wrote; I said getup; not the spike. You do edge-canceled dair on a platform into uair when they miss the tech and it forces the getup at low percents. You can follow up with grab if you are fast enough, and then probably put them off stage, or at least give them 55%+.

@DivinoKage

Exploit your shield SDI more, because I doubt you're going to be able to get the appropriate spacing all the time. Going into shield is safe if you know you will get pushed out of their shine range from the aerial so that grab is straight cake. I just try to position myself properly. Linguini used to be so good at it. Just my two cents.
 
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-ACE-

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@ S Superspright I didn't even see your last post. I'm pretty money on the chaingrab actually. Like I said at ceo I grabbed a falco at 85% and took him to 145% or so and gave him the pivot down-B (he DI'd behind). It is all reaction since the dthrow animation is ******** by the weight of the character you're throwing. But all cg's are still pretty easy for me, although I don't cg falco below 70% nor do I try it on fox at all. It's not worth doing unless you've mastered it (or came close) imo. I'd only cg fox if I grabbed him in fd at 110% and wanted to make sure he died. if you uthtow he can di away and nothing is guaranteed. A chaingrab IS.

edit: didn't see kage's response either. Kage you are basically complaining about falco's speed at this point lmao. Ganon can't chase everything. Just think of safer/more intelligent pressure, slight variations to what you are doing currently.... and more openings will come... and that's all you need, because you are a very fast reactive player.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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Thing is if he does shield one of them, he can just go on the top platform and be safe immediately. Ganon can't chase that.
Actually, I have really good success with doing a double uair (SH uair DJ uair) in that situation. This should beat everything except maybe a shield drop, but they would have to be damn near perfect on that. No way is falco jumping out of that one. There's a way to time it so that you can either land on the platform or not.

You can mix it up too, if you're 100% confident that he's gonna shield, you can up-b. Bizz does that a lot, but my dude EDDIE invented that ****- just remember that, new ganons. And I remember you audibly shouting in kels's face when I did that to him at big house, so don't tell me it doesn't work ;)
 

-ACE-

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I mean if falco is just gonna sit there on the platform, nair his shield (both hits), perfectly spacing the last hit into jab, into drop-through uair, into usmash, into uair, lmao....

Joe you will be in the outer banks in 3 weeks? I'm going to NC soon... emilio and Ian won't be there though lol... don't get confused... I've been in FL lately.
 

PseudoTurtle

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Dave, I might be. No guarantee though, my dad is being kinda goofy with the plans and such lol, still unsure as to whether it'll interfere with my class.

And yea, I know they'll be in FL, which is quite the drive (hence the money match).
 

-ACE-

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@ Divinokage Divinokage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxhO573N3xs

The situation you find yourself in at 9:35.... is that what you're talking about?

Bam is on the platform, you uair, he shield DI's back... could have been a whiffed shield drop as well.

You kind of uair'd and then dashed away for a split second... could have pressured more, even if it's just uair'ing again... you may hit them just as they drop their shield.
 

Superspright

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@ S Superspright I didn't even see your last post. I'm pretty money on the chaingrab actually. Like I said at ceo I grabbed a falco at 85% and took him to 145% or so and gave him the pivot down-B (he DI'd behind). It is all reaction since the dthrow animation is ******** by the weight of the character you're throwing. But all cg's are still pretty easy for me, although I don't cg falco below 70% nor do I try it on fox at all. It's not worth doing unless you've mastered it (or came close) imo. I'd only cg fox if I grabbed him in fd at 110% and wanted to make sure he died. if you uthtow he can di away and nothing is guaranteed. A chaingrab IS.

edit: didn't see kage's response either. Kage you are basically complaining about falco's speed at this point lmao. Ganon can't chase everything. Just think of safer/more intelligent pressure, slight variations to what you are doing currently.... and more openings will come... and that's all you need, because you are a very fast reactive player.
I've practiced the chaingrab from the lowest percents in an attempt to get it down. At one point I was pretty good at it, and it was an in the bag kind of trick. But without regular practice [no access to melee] it's really hard to do. It's good you have that in your bag of tricks. I'm waiting for a Ganondorf to land a dair->CG->Death on the regular on Falco. Fox I don't like to CG either because reacting to it is pretty damn hard, and his DI is hard to follow sometimes.

Kage has character problems at this point. I think Ganondorf is holding him back from where he belongs. If he had picked up someone like Sheik instead he probably would have been better off. Ganondorf is too much fun though.
 

-ACE-

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Back in the day I practiced vs Level 1 Bowser a lot to get my pivot dash > jc grab's perfect. Bowser is tough. I'd practice it on sheik, falco, link, ylink, roy, and other Ganons to stay fresh when I had no one to play against. But I wasn't really great until I just started focusing on Ganon, I seem to be able to dash > jc grab right away when I do... I used to watch my opponent the whole time to see their DI, but once I figured out I could react to that just fine through my peripheral vision, I just kept focusing on Ganon's dthrow animation (I know if mentioned that before but its huge imo) and profited. Nowadays I'm not as on point, and my current controller is straight booty when it comes to dash sensitivity, so I'll occasionally whiff the dash and drop the cg. Pisses me off but whatever lol... I just really have to slam the stick to get the pivot dash.

Also one thing I started doing vs falcon is cg them until they DI behind... if you get like 2-3 regrabs in before they go full behind, chances are they will be teching away as they land because they just want to get tf away from you. So as soon as they'd DI behind I'd just go for the hard read on tech roll away and fair him offstage. Far from guaranteed but falcons seem to fall for that the first time imo
 

-ACE-

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cool basic trap:

If you grab a fastfaller at med% and uthrow, you can follow up anything but DI away. If there is a platform in front of you though, you'll get a free uair on techchase if he DI's away. If he DI's behind instead you can ftilt (bair at higher%). If he doesn't DI, regrab/uair/ftilt/jab/etc. Basically 100% profit from uthrow if there is a platform in front of you. No crazy fast reaction skills necessary.

Falco grab setups for Kage:

I'm guessing Bam is always ready for you to jab after a dthrow and never misses the tech after the jab. What are your basic go-to strategies when falco is at low%? dthrow to regrab, dair, or fair, right? and the occasional uthrow onto platform right? Have you experimented with more multiple option coverage, like auto-canceled bair (if they tech in place) to dash > jc grab (if they roll through you), dsmash, or side-B?

Dsmash and side-B, as techchases out of dthrow, are straight gimmicks. It's crazy how much profit Ganon's get off of something that can be stopped by a CC or any form of downward ASDI, lmao. but it works. Great mixups to this day. And if you can regrab afterward in either scenario that is beast.

If falco is at 0%, I always go for the jab > regrab twice since he'll still land on his feet and not tech--- guaranteed if he isn't ready to DI and it happens very quickly. Then after that most people will either tech away or in place.

I'm all about Dair and fair but they require hard reads often, multiple option coverage mixups are underused imo.
 
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Divinokage

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@ Divinokage Divinokage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxhO573N3xs

The situation you find yourself in at 9:35.... is that what you're talking about?

Bam is on the platform, you uair, he shield DI's back... could have been a whiffed shield drop as well.

You kind of uair'd and then dashed away for a split second... could have pressured more, even if it's just uair'ing again... you may hit them just as they drop their shield.
I definitely guessed a lot better that set than the set I did last weekend. It's just that Falco is mad cheap and Bam has been practicing too so that makes it pretty damn hard for me. If i don't get hard reads on Falco, it's pretty much gg.

The situation is more like, I uair, he shields then jumps and delays his landing on the top platform. But ya I suppose I wasn't safe enough usually.. blehh, tired of this matchup. lol.
 
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-ACE-

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Kage get in falco's face more and use very well timed jabs, ftilts, and uair scoops, never spam a move, predict his approaches at all times... you're good at that you just need heavier pressure inside imo. powershield lasers, CC shdl and jab between the lasers... start practicing shieldgrabbing with shield DI.... there are lots of things you could do to make falco's fear your ganon more.
 

Divinokage

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Kage get in falco's face more and use very well timed jabs, ftilts, and uair scoops, never spam a move, predict his approaches at all times... you're good at that you just need heavier pressure inside imo. powershield lasers, CC shdl and jab between the lasers... start practicing shieldgrabbing with shield DI.... there are lots of things you could do to make falco's fear your ganon more.
Hard to practice these things when I haven't really played any top players for a few months now. I have to theorize then do it on the spot, no choice. At least that allowed to be on point vs Sheik. Not failing your setups or CG = pretty brutal for her.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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I'm telling you kage, DO ANOTHER UAIR.

Like bair, you can SH uair, then DJ uair. He dropped his shield and I promise you that it would've hit. The same thing would've worked at 3:47 in that vid.

One more thing that you got hit by quite a bit was his bair out of shield. Like at 8:10. Just side-b in that situation. It's so free, dude, every single spacie always does bair out of shield because it is a good option... But the pull-back on the side-b will make it a free warrior boost (thanks prog, for coining that lol).

You did well though, I haven't seen that set before. Nice second match.
 
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-ACE-

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You're right Joe but if Falco didn't drop his shield he has ganon in a very vulnerable position. Getting bair'd with no jump is no fun. Although It looks like it would have worked this time, it can be risky.
 

PseudoTurtle

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That's true, but only if you land on the platform. You can space/time it so you don't land though, so basically only a shield drop is the only punish.

edit: misinterpreted what you were saying.

Yea, he may be able to come down with a bair and hit you out of your double jump, but I'm uncertain if he has the frame advantage to do so, and you can probably still space it out of the way, although this I'm not sure about. Wish someone knew frame data (@Magus420)
 
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