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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

tm

tm

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At a tourney his weekend I lost to a marth who was very dash dance campy, and he would constantly space SH nairs out of my bair range. It was safe on my shield, and I couldn't seem to punish him for it. He also was grabbing me as soon as I was in shield a lot. Whenever I got grabbed he would just techchase me with dthrow which was very difficult to get away from, and if he got a grab near ledge he would just fsmash me unless I DI'd away, and if I did that he would just standard marth edgeguard me, often getting the kill.

How do I deal with these things?

I feel like in the neutral game I have to literally wait for him to approach or he can just counter anything I do. When he fthrows me offstage it seems like he can get a free kill no matter how I vary my recovery (unless it's at VERY low %, and I DI in and DJ airdodge to stage or something). Once I get him offstage I usually get the kill except when I choke from nervousness, but I just don't know how to get in when his range, speed, grabs, and comos are so much better.
 
Renth

Renth

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http://www.twitch.tv/taerknet/b/478221765

@4:00:00

I played (imo) the 5th best player in florida (#1 falcon for sure) In a set at this tournament yesterday. Last weekend I played him and he was convincingly winning a lot of the neutral game matches we played. I couldn't hit him, I couldn't approach him, he spaced me out beautifully. I kept all of this in my mind before I sat down to play with him. I spent a lot of the set avoiding him, playing platforms and ledge games because I think Ganondorf CANNOT do a thing against falcon in a neutral guessing game. He was also very hard to edge guard, he often went as high as possible and I had a hard time trying to gauge where he was going to land. So, before someone says LOL edge guard better, I assure you I tried. I really did, he mixed up his fast fall/ landing positioning very well. Like I said he's a top player in Florida.

I await your constructive criticisms.

Same link at 5 hours 9 minutes vs. Dark Sonic.

I beat him last tournament, he was the better man this day. He was playing on top of his game better than I've seen him play in a long time.

I'm only linking the matches I lost, I don't believe the melee matches I won / played on stream were recorded only my PM victories were and I only played PM teams. anyway.

Enjoy
 
tm

tm

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As much as I'd like to help, you probably already know anything that I might think of as helpful. But I'll try anyway.

Sometimes when he's upBing and you aren't sure how far in/out he's going to fade, you might have a better time with uair than bair, for example 4:02:30 / 4:06:10. Bair will likely get the kill, but has less range. If they outrange it by going in, uair will not reverse (it will put them onstage) but will at least do some damage/ keep pressure on him, and if they outrange bair by fading back, the end of uair might still clip them, easily securing the kill. Also I believe uair has a more horizontal angle of knockback so despite not hitting falcon as far away as bair, might put him lower which reduces his options.

Also some of your choices for getting up from ledge were risky/ committal, but it's your call the risk v reward in these situations, and a sideB on falcon at low % is quite rewarding, for example.

Nice job game 2. Also your recoveries were really good in general.
 
Renth

Renth

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Thank you, I edited my post and updated with a second match. Please watch it and tell me how you feel about that one was well.

I will consider using up air more often in those situations, Honestly. A lot of my misses were from feeling nervous in situations I should be confident, those situations being when he's recovering and I have stage control.
 
tm

tm

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Gee, that marth trouble looks familiar... hard to tell what you're doing wrong for me anyway.

At 5:11:40 I think a reverse waveland uair would have been a good edgeguard, although these can be risky. Being offstage at all against marth is obviously risky but if you miss an edgeguard against marth I feel that you will basically lose the match for it.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about why you counterpicked FD. Personally I find the matchup even more difficult there and usually ban it against marth.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

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What tm said about your edge guards. I like your RLD's and that up-b when you predict they will shield is a Pseudo classic.

Our play styles are actually pretty similar in my opinion. We both make the same dumb mistakes.
 
Renth

Renth

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tm said:
Gee, that marth trouble looks familiar... hard to tell what you're doing wrong for me anyway.

At 5:11:40 I think a reverse waveland uair would have been a good edgeguard, although these can be risky. Being offstage at all against marth is obviously risky but if you miss an edgeguard against marth I feel that you will basically lose the match for it.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about why you counterpicked FD. Personally I find the matchup even more difficult there and usually ban it against marth.
Click to expand...

He asked me why I wanted to go to FD also.

He banned Yoshi's, I wouldn't have gone there anyway. I feel Yoshi's whoever is standing in the center of the stage is winning, if ganon is ever above marth ganon is losing. I like battlefield a lot but after a lot of mistakes I wanted a new stage for a fresh game. I like FD because I hate being above Marth and I have a lot of experience in the neutral game vs. Marth, Edge guarding I'm bad at it definitely but the few "tricks" we use all have answers.

I hate FD most of the time but in that match up I like to be on even ground vs. Marth.

An edge guard that has been working though I chose not to do it this set for some reason, if you get up attack as marth is rising your get up attack will kick him back off and you can usually snag the ledge or get a reverse up air after.
 
Renth

Renth

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Coastward said:
why am i so bad at moonwalking :(
Click to expand...

Keep trying. It's really not that hard I don't have advice on it but i'm sure you'll get it

Coastward said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBATXCA0VOk&feature=player_detailpage#t=949s

ok heres pretty much the only footage i have of my ganondorf.

keep in my mind this was from a while ago and i have improved, i cant bare to watch this video lol. anyways any advice is appreciated.
Click to expand...

Not going to watch, give us an up to date one. What's the point in critiquing a video you, yourself say isn't good and you've improved since then.
 
tm

tm

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Superspright said:
LOL...basically. I was going to comment on the match but I'll probably just get chewed out by everyone. I don't care enough.
Click to expand...
I think you're insightful despite your delivery. Not saying you would be wrong though lol

Also, did coastwards avatar just change expressions or am I crazy
 
Coastward

Coastward

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so is a certain way you have to moonwalk out of a waveland? i can do it fairly easily when i jump from the ledge but anywhere else its pretty difficult for me.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

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Dude forget about moonwalking right now lol from what I saw of your play, you need some work on the basics. You missed a ton of L-cancels, and I didn't see much wavedashing or wavelanding. Practice L-cancelling on dreamland or battlefield. First on the ground (standard shffling) and then do rising areals on platforms and things like that.

Practice wavelanding on battlefield, the platforms allow ganon to do silly things. Waveland out of a full hop (press R/L before you hit the peak of the jump) and out of a double jump (basically tap y as fast as possible and then hit R/L).

And then there's your actual fighting. First thing to do is work on your spacing. I'm not talking about where your hitboxes hit, but more about your move placement. Don't just try and hit him, you can't do that with ganon. Try to guess what he's going to do and then stuff him.

Also, to add on to spacing: consider everything. For example, if he's on the platform and you're in the middle of the stage, what can he do? He can: a) run off and hit you. B) run towards the ledge (if you fair at him, he might do this because it gives him the proper spacing to counterattack. For example, my buddy ripple plays samus and he will frequently wavedash off towards the ledge and missile me. Stuffs me hard every time I whiff a fair. It's hard to explain, but you'll get it). c) He can drop through the platform or d) he can jump above the platform (usually a dumb decision vs ganon).

Everything I'm saying, I'm explaining somewhat poorly I think because of the lack of video support, so if you need clarification, feel free to ask.

One more thing: none of what I'm saying is at all meant to criticize your play lol I was worse than you just under two years ago... Hell I even sucked hard less than a year ago haha
 
Coastward

Coastward

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PseudoTurtle said:
Dude forget about moonwalking right now lol from what I saw of your play, you need some work on the basics. You missed a ton of L-cancels, and I didn't see much wavedashing or wavelanding. Practice L-cancelling on dreamland or battlefield. First on the ground (standard shffling) and then do rising areals on platforms and things like that.

Practice wavelanding on battlefield, the platforms allow ganon to do silly things. Waveland out of a full hop (press R/L before you hit the peak of the jump) and out of a double jump (basically tap y as fast as possible and then hit R/L).

And then there's your actual fighting. First thing to do is work on your spacing. I'm not talking about where your hitboxes hit, but more about your move placement. Don't just try and hit him, you can't do that with ganon. Try to guess what he's going to do and then stuff him.

Also, to add on to spacing: consider everything. For example, if he's on the platform and you're in the middle of the stage, what can he do? He can: a) run off and hit you. B) run towards the ledge (if you fair at him, he might do this because it gives him the proper spacing to counterattack. For example, my buddy ripple plays samus and he will frequently wavedash off towards the ledge and missile me. Stuffs me hard every time I whiff a fair. It's hard to explain, but you'll get it). c) He can drop through the platform or d) he can jump above the platform (usually a dumb decision vs ganon).

Everything I'm saying, I'm explaining somewhat poorly I think because of the lack of video support, so if you need clarification, feel free to ask.

One more thing: none of what I'm saying is at all meant to criticize your play lol I was worse than you just under two years ago... Hell I even sucked hard less than a year ago haha
Click to expand...
oh dude trust me, that video is like, super outdated. ive really picked up my technical skill and incorporated wavelanding into my playstyle. im just really bored right now LOL
 
tm

tm

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I've got some footage that i'll upload soon as well.

we just need a little more participation from the legends here... cough cough
 
Coastward

Coastward

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alright so after playing some friendlies last night, i had a question pop in my head.

are there certain situations where i should be angling my ftilts differently?
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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Coastward said:
alright so after playing some friendlies last night, i had a question pop in my head.

are there certain situations where i should be angling my ftilts differently?
Click to expand...

Low angled Ftilt for edgeguarding is quite good.

The upwards Ftilt needs to be used more imo, at least against the angles where jab won't hit and where you won't quite have enough time to uair. So you could go for a trade instead and gain some momentum.

I'm thinking of Fox specifically because when I played Unknown last weekend, he was attacking me in angles where I couldn't uair or jab so I had to shield or get hit but I think upwards ftilt would have stuffed his Nair or Dair.
 
Coastward

Coastward

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Divinokage said:
Low angled Ftilt for edgeguarding is quite good.

The upwards Ftilt needs to be used more imo, at least against the angles where jab won't hit and where you won't quite have enough time to uair. So you could go for a trade instead and gain some momentum.

I'm thinking of Fox specifically because when I played Unknown last weekend, he was attacking me in angles where I couldn't uair or jab so I had to shield or get hit but I think upwards ftilt would have stuffed his Nair or Dair.
Click to expand...
yeah i can see how a downwards ftilt can be used as a mix up on spacies when they recover. also was there anything recorded from that tourney last weekend?
 
S

Superspright

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If you think he is going to nair/bair then upward ftilt while holding c-stick down is amazing because it allows you to buffer a crouch-cancel without holding the control stick and then you can dash out of it and grab or pick a different move than dtilt.

It works best against neutral airs of course.
 
S

Superspright

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Isn't that was CCing is? ASDI down? Whenever I've done it I go into crouch and it seems to cancel the lag...maybe I am wrong.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

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crouching itself cuts your hitstun in half, in addition to asdi down. c-stick is asdi only. so if you've been using the c-stick all this time, you'll be amazed at what you can get away with using the control stick which actually inputs crouch.
 
S

Superspright

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I mainly use c-stick down so I can tech-roll on hit to screw with people's timing or so I can scrape stage to ledge grab, but I also tend to hold slightly down and left or right for the roll--that explains why I've been CCing sometimes.
 
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