Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Superspright]

If you want to get good at the match up you should play it on FD a lot because you can't use platform shenanigans to keep up with him and it will force you to play a stonewall defense. When you ftilt you should really preemptively CC like M2K does. Powershield beats any of his rising aerials, but doesn't beat any of his cross over aerials...so for instance rising dair can be ps'd into a side-b I believe. Focus on power shielding so he can't poke your shield, and bait with it more...just before the nair comes to cross over fully wavedash back then CC and try to punish it, and if he's going for knee you can easily wavedash back and punish it OoS because he'll only connect with a soft hit unless he reads your wavedash back and CCing it will be super easy once it loses the hard hitbox. I'd be more afraid of the uair because it's faster and can follow up into grabs and stuff. The only thing about that match up that scares me is the grab game...nothing else really fazes me.

 

[Divinokage]

Actually you do kinda need the platforms, Falcon vs Ganon is suicide on FD. You can't hope to catch him.. there's only a few things Falcon do to you on shield generally/safely. Knee to mixup or anything that can cross you up, or fully spaced Nair. The rate of me winning vs a great Falcon on FD.. is lower than 20%.. lol.

 

[Superspright]

I was just saying if you want to get good at what you are suggesting: being a wall. If you can do it on FD very well then a stage with platforms is much easier...kind of like training with weights on, but certainly I agree I will never take a falcon to FD with the notion I have a good chance of winning. My wavelands on BF are very fast and I usually can keep up with a Falcon in terms of speed, but not when I am grounded.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kage, after watching your matches vs. PewPewU at big house, you gotta ledge drop uair more! It really works wonders. Or light shield edge hog (then waveland ftilt or ledge hop->grab->bair to reset the edge guard if they land on stage). Wife said that ganon doesn't really have a lot of options vs Marth in terms of edge guarding, but I actually thoroughly disagree.

 

[Renth]

Kage, after watching your matches vs. PewPewU at big house, you gotta ledge drop uair more! It really works wonders. Or light shield edge hog (then waveland ftilt or ledge hop->grab->bair to reset the edge guard if they land on stage). Wife said that ganon doesn't really have a lot of options vs Marth in terms of edge guarding, but I actually thoroughly disagree.

He's limited to his own specific knowledge and experiences. We know the truth, the more commentators say ganon can't do something we know he can the better.

 

[Superspright]

Light-shield edge-hog can be beaten if it's read...it's better to be done as a bait really. Good Marth's will grab the ledge and you'll fall off and get Dair'd.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, after watching your matches vs. PewPewU at big house, you gotta ledge drop uair more! It really works wonders. Or light shield edge hog (then waveland ftilt or ledge hop->grab->bair to reset the edge guard if they land on stage). Wife said that ganon doesn't really have a lot of options vs Marth in terms of edge guarding, but I actually thoroughly disagree.

Ya I know, but I've also heard that you can't do it too much, if the Marth knows that situation then he can avoid it. The real problem is.. is that I have no one to test these things, I have to do it on the fly at tournaments. >_< Building new habits takes some time and that time I do not have currently so I have to rely on memory but I can't afford to test things in tournaments, i'll die. lol.

Also.. who would play Marth vs me in locals? =/

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea man I'm not saying those are your only two options by any means, but they are two MORE options to add to your arsenal. Certainly better than grabbing the ledge, rolling and not punishing lol (not trying to offend). But yea, like anything else in smash, if you spam it, they will get used to it and you'll get baited and killed.

Spright, that rarely happens. And you can also jump preemptively (if you know that they will try and avoid the light shield) and bair/uair.

 

[-ACE-]

I've told kage about the invincible ledgedrop uairs years ago. It'll take him a while but he'll end up using it. You just have to use it intelligently. look for their jump. A lot of times you can catch them at soon as they jump. And since you're invincible you don't have to worry about getting stage spiked by his up-b or something. Once it gets to the point where they expect the ledgedrop uair, you have a great mindgame at your disposal, and the marth severely limits his recover recovery options if he tries to bait you into doing it. Sometimes marth is recovering and I'm dj ledgestalling waiting on him. As he gets close he's ready for the ledgedrop uair, but I ledgehop, take a half step forward and wd backwards offstage and bai r or dair him. his mind is at ease for a split second when you ledgehop because he sees the ledgedrop uair he's been worried about isn't going to happen... but then immediately they're hit. Situational fun mindgame I use since people get used to my ledgedrop uairs in friendlies.

I just watched that set, kage vs ppu again.... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL wife with the show stopper "Ganon doesn't have many options edgeguarding marth" lmao that was good. yeah Kage, some of those uairs could have helped you, also don't forget the marth killer (lightshield edgehog), whenever marth has to up-b on stage that's a free grab for you.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya, alright I'll try to keep those in mind. =)

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, I should have made an advanced edition: 102 or something.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-edgeguarding-101-open-discussion-whos-next.266671/

been openly preaching the use of ledgedrop uairs since 2010... hell way before this post, lol.

Funny how it will ALWAYS catch them off guard the first time. Seriously no one is ever ready for it, except for whoever plays with Ian regularly (props for being one of the few to fully incorporate it into your edgeguarding game), lmao. And once they catch on they start second guessing their recovery and stuff... they hesitate... if they try to bait the ledgedrop uair, and it doesn't work, they're edgehogged. It's underused, but do is that lightshield edgehog. Free grab + aerial every time.......

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ace, I should try out your method when they predict the ledge drop uair. What I like to do is the ledge hop (you don't actually go on stage) uair regrab (difficult to get the hang of, but very doable with practice).

I remember a while back doing this to a Marth who hadn't jumped yet and then comboing into a standard ledge drop uair after he freaked out and jumped. SO SICK

 

[-ACE-]

Nice! hell yeah that uair regrab is nasty! I have no problem doing it but sometimes I'm scared to in tourney because my nerves have always limited my success, lol. scared I'll sd. I should throw it out there more.

you can also just roll into lightshield edgehog instead of wd offstage in that last example. You can catch him off guard with a lot of things even he's expecting the ledgedrop uair. *summons eikelmann*

 

[Divinokage]

Being good at bluffing is what it's all about with Ganon, they'll expect something else and then POW!! lol. Learning how to do that with movement is how you get into people's heads.

 

[Superspright]

Who does the brinstar lava thing with Ganon to get their invincibility perfect? I can get like 3 jumps under the lava before I miss a frame and get burnt. My timing is horrible for ledge stalls.

By the way the 'Marth Killer' doesn't work the way most of you are thinking it does, i.e. reliably. If they aim the hitbox directly under you you fall off and they grab ledge [and you are gonna die], and if they sweet spot the same thing or you never even get hit. The first time I did it to a decent Marth he just scooped underneath it and dropped me off and grabbed ledge. It's best used on stages with flat walls like Yoshi's--but any other stage you can get gimped for it, or just reset.

@Ace If you're scared of messing up the uair regrab then perhaps you should find a very reliable way to do your ledge options. I use c-stick so I can use my control stick, but in the case of the uair regrab I just tap away jump and c-stick up--but I play claw style so it's fairly easy to do reliably. I know most of you like using your thumbs, but try to use your index finger for jump at least and you can see some things getting easier--I don't play a full claw but like a half claw so my jumps and ledge options are as close to perfect as I can muster.

 

[tm]

If they aim the hitbox directly under you you fall off and they grab ledge [and you are gonna die]

I believe if you fastfall the edgehog you'll still grab ledge before marth. Could be wrong but I doubt it, unless I misunderstand the situation you're describing.

Uair regrab is sweet, although I think it's extremely situational in that matchup.

ACE you should start a 102 edition lol. That thread helped me advance my game so much, but was long dead before I was any good. I think edgeguarding is SO critical that we could always use more advancements, with the help of brainstorming / video discussion / etc.

 

[Superspright]

That doesn't seem very reliable considering you're getting knocked off and you have to FF for like what, a frame and release otherwise you don't grab ledge? I guess if you can do that then go for it, but I find that pretty damn risky.

 

[Renth]

Who does the brinstar lava thing with Ganon to get their invincibility perfect? I can get like 3 jumps under the lava before I miss a frame and get burnt. My timing is horrible for ledge stalls.

This is what I call the "impossible challenge" I've never seen anyone do it for the duration of the acid (the high rise) I haven't tried in a long time but .. I don''t own a copy of the game at the moment so i will try when I get the chance. I think Linguini and Chaddd both could do it, when I first ever met Chaddd he told me my ledge stalls were slow.

 

[foxyisemo]

Super queer just drop the charade, everyone knows you're bad

 

[tm]

That doesn't seem very reliable considering you're getting knocked off and you have to FF for like what, a frame and release otherwise you don't grab ledge? I guess if you can do that then go for it, but I find that pretty damn risky.

Really? When I wavedash to ledge, I always fastfall. With characters like marth you'll be too slow otherwise, and sometimes slide away too far to even grab it lol. I ended up doing it with everyone including falcon/ spacies, which requires way more precision than with Gdorf.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

The blackmon bros are the two funniest people on the planet.

 

[Renth]

The blackmon bros are the two funniest people on the planet.

You should have been there the first time I ever ganon ditto'd Ace.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You should have been there the first time I ditto'd Ace hahaha. Lmao him and Jesse know how to party that's for sure.

We still gotta play, renth. Looking forward to it!

But I just took the hardest test of my life, so its drinking time.

 

[Renth]

renths style fits him. what a guy

Triple KO *****es!! SUCK MY ****!!!

Lol. I agree chris. I have adopted a new style in dittos. Beware the dynamite.

You don't even know Pseudo...You don't even know. The Triple KO Ace is referring to, I stomped 3 people jumped out of my chair and said suck my ****. The Dynamite is just how you play Ganon dittos.. Ace will tell you.

 

[Superspright]

In order to FF to the ledge you have to do the input which is pressing straight down...if you just wavedash and don't hit down then you aren't FFing. In order to do a perfect RLD you have to FF after you wavedash back which is very hard because most people end up killing themselves. Maybe you do snap the ledge that way. I do the super jank wavedash turn around FF ledge-grab sometimes...especially when on BF when I come off the middle platforms.

 

[-ACE-]

LMAO renth's triple ko was a day of ruthless degradation in the form of sloppy yet highly brutal Ganon dittos. I had that fukcing meteor cancel!! I blame the 6374 frames of dair eletricity lag lol. Smash with the cape again was awesome. i was stoked when he told me my spacing was 10x better than the first time I played him. Meeting clue was badass too, I remember he played really gay wanting to win lol, I had some fun matches with him.. Cape called him a pvssy every time he went for something safe lmao. I'm coming to find you on the 18th mark. ganon time. Jesse or I will get up with dennis too.

first time i played joe was awesome too. he was still learning advanced stuff back then though. one of these days bro.

I think you can buffer the FF to ledge by a frame or 2. seriously I've already snapped down and am already letting go by the time my character begins to FF. Try snapping down immediately after you do the RLD waveland. Works for me every time. RLD requires a fastfall to maintain invincibility, but not to be effective. You can actually RLD FF regrab through the lava on brinstar. however I often hold out instead of down, because one of the RLD applications I use often is RLD to offstage aerial. Holding away from the stage gives uair and bair more range (the RLD is used in this case to maximize range anyway-- otherwise just go invincible), and RLD to dair (nasty) can't be FF'd obviously.

 

[Renth]

Dennis lives 30 mins from me, we play any weekend someone wants to play smash.

Also, I leave for PA on the 21st so get at me asap.

 

[Linguini]

kage why you losing to pewpewu?

i'd tap that *****

btw gonna be going to fl tourneys soon just got a new controller LEHGO GANON IS BACK BABY

 

[Renth]

kage why you losing to pewpewu?

i'd tap that *****

btw gonna be going to fl tourneys soon just got a new controller LEHGO GANON IS BACK BABY

Good, I'd love to sit down and talk Ganon with you in the future.

 

[Divinokage]

kage why you losing to pewpewu?

i'd tap that *****

btw gonna be going to fl tourneys soon just got a new controller LEHGO GANON IS BACK BABY

*Sniff* Don't worry I'll practice up and own that ***** next time.

But honestly he was very hard to read. =P

 

[Superspright]

@Ace

The only buffer in the game are the buffers OoS with c-stick, and the buffers before techs, but I do not think there is a FF buffer in the game. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[-ACE-]

maybe not a true buffer but you can def input the ff while your character is still standing, sliding toward the ledge. Sometimes makes it seem like it's buffering it but probably not. It's really easy to see with characters that that long wd's imo

 

[foxyisemo]

@Ace

The only buffer in the game are the buffers OoS with c-stick, and the buffers before techs, but I do not think there is a FF buffer in the game. Correct me if I am wrong.

Way to go captain obvious. You get on me for interpreting your scrub advice as scrub advice then you say **** like that.

 

[Superspright]

Who are you again? I have no idea who you are.

 

[foxyisemo]

That might be an ok retort if anyone actually gave a **** about what you say, or if you had actually been to a real tournament, or if you had actually played any good ganons, or if you had played anyone with good ganon game.

In other words, I'm the dumb teenager

 

[Superspright]

Honestly my Ganon tech is arguably as good as any of yours or better. I do a lot of flashy unnecessary crap all the time. Maybe someday we'll all get to meet up and I can show you my stylin'. I'm just nowhere near as competitively consistent as others. Someday I may be, but as of right now I am a pretty hit or miss kinda guy.

 

[foxyisemo]

Ok. I hope you get the chance to come play with some ganons too.

 

[-ACE-]

just watched kage vs frootloop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrjhqHk-rM

at 4:15 I was Kage wtf punch him!
then at 5:15 I'm like, hell yeah that's the way
then at 5:45 .... wtf haha

 

[Divinokage]

just watched kage vs frootloop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrjhqHk-rM

at 4:15 I was Kage wtf punch him!
then at 5:15 I'm like, hell yeah that's the way
then at 5:45 .... wtf haha

Lol it's hard to be 100% sure! =(

 

[Coastward]

alright its time to unite with ganon friends and hopefully learn some new stuff