Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Palpi]

Kage, are you going to zenith?

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, are you going to zenith?

Yes sir! You want to play? =P

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, don't get too excited guys. more vids of me are up. me getting thrashed by druggedfox is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GdeYAOqKc&feature=related

and also me having a good time (still in pools lol) with a marth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwxJJ9Lp08s&feature=channel_video_title

druggedfox is definitely still too good. i really tried every spacing trick i knew, but he didn't fall for em, and just hit me instead. i can definitely see how he got second to PP, beating all our other best from NC, including pp's little brother, twitch. i have a ways to go still, but as i said earlier, i'm on the right track now.

 

[Palpi]

Yeah I want to play Kage!

I might not enter, depends on my money situation, but I'm down for friendlies.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

here's another good set. i choked at the end, and i actually raged and left the room for a short period. i always lose to josh by choking at the end lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvPRoQz6-8&feature=feedu

 

[Bl@ckChris]

me vs yay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLrGm2UhFEE&feature=channel_video_title

mother **** randall. this is vs falcon.

me vs JMH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlvg4cV1k1E&feature=relmfu

we were talking all during that first match...had to stop goofin around the second two matches. this is vs samus

and the match i need to watch the most, me vs sneak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyTDT2AgmaM&feature=relmfu

i haven't seen it yet but yeah, it should be good. that brinstar match was LOL though.

i didn't think these vids would happen, but it seems like john found em, so here they are. feel free to discuss either here or on the videos

 

[Superspright]

I'm pretty sure this is insignificant, but...it's just some battle-field related nuances I found when I was practicing edge-canceling, or at least getting a feel for it.

If Ganon's back foot is on the second (or middle) dark band [there are three on each side on the stage] facing toward the center of the stage of battle field he can FH, and slam the control stick away from the stage and edge-cancel any aerial on the platform above. Works the other way but different.

Same black band (on either side of the stage) put your forward facing foot on the black band facing away from the center, FH backwards and aerial. Gotta do it perfect. Always works. Also, you can SH any aerial and edge-cancel the ledge. For some reason it's the same spacing. There is a small gap where you can do it [it's very small]--but I try to visualize that that black band as a guideline for how tight you have to do your edge-cancels.

If you do it facing away from the ledge, you can FF after the edge-cancel and grab the ledge, or do another aerial and FF and edge-cancel that aerial. Pretty easy once you get the timing I imagine.

 

[-ACE-]

wow randall really put in work there lol

 

[Superspright]

Yeah. Wow. That last save that he got at the end blew my mind. And the Randall edge-guard...hahahaha. God, I love the fact my name is Randall.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i told you guys...he knew....i didn't. randall killed me, and then saved him twice. it was kinda funny, but i really felt like i had a shot at beating him. ah well.

 

[Superspright]

Sometimes I am a prick. Randall is just like me: bipolar. So many puns there my brain is orgasming.

Anyway--I think you did too. You had momentum at the start of the first match. I thought you were gonna ace him. You were beasting--then you started to get reserved and turtling. Pressure sucks. I saw him raise the pressure-and then you were forced to play more defensively.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, i never really had any kind of momentum. the gimp/combo at 1:18 or so would have done so, but since i got myself confused with randall and stuff, i couldn't finish quite like i had hoped.

i do think you mean the second match though, which did start well for me. i made a lot of bad decisions though...i played it too much like a friendly. all those usmashes could be traded for much better moves (ie uair). playing more patiently instead of looking for that perfect combo could've put me in a better position. when it looked like i was turtling, i just couldn't find a good way to regain stage control. i really wish randall wasn't there for 4:10 though...i needed that gimp. i plan to learn from it though.

thing is, that's just yay's falcon...*sigh* his fox is on a slightly different level...drag.

edit: after spending the last half hour watching my battle vs JMH's samus, i can say that that matchup is probably in ganon's favor. the fact that i could just top platform camp (after banning PS) made things a ton easier. without a top platform (ie, on FD or PS), it's probably pretty even.

 

[Superspright]

That matchup is not even. You utilize platforms a lot better than that Samus does. If you were playing someone who can really bait you you'd find it a lot harder. I say it's about even on everything but PS and FD.

 

[-ACE-]

ganon vs samus is dangerously close to even.

 

[G. Vice]

ganon vs samus is dangerously close to even.

Dangerously close indeed, still I do believe that Ganon has an advantage.

Platform potential is dead even, and anyone who disagrees needs to watch me vs IHSB. Ganon has range and priority over samus, while samus has recovery over ganon, while still managing to compete for range reasonably. Marth and Samus are two of my better matchups in my opinion.

Also, being able to ledge tech into BAir is extremely useful in both of those matchups. Marth fsmash edgeguard/samus uptilt edgeguard < ganon ledgetech bair

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i think we have similar ideas spright. i think while of tilting it toward samus on ps and FD, i'm more inclined to tilt it toward ganon on battlefield and yoshi's. dreamland and FoD are pretty even, as far as i can think of. I do think it's closer to even than anything though, as 55/45 wouldn't even sum up how slight even I believe ganon's advantage is.

 

[G. Vice]

Chris, I didn't watch all of the set, but from what I watched you really need to do more UAir to Samus. It dominates her. Uair out of shield is one the best ways to keep her fended off. Especially when she's trying to call your jump. You have better options(other than her up-b out of shield) as Ganon.

But, I will give you that Samus vs Ganon on FD is much better for Samus if the Samus is playing it right. Other than that? I'd give it to Ganon by a hair on every level.

 

[Ulti]

What makes the Samus mu so dangerous? I was always under the impression that Ganon had decent (if not better) tools to deal with a lot of Samus' "gimmicks" (CCing, projectiles, to a lesser extent her oos game) and at mid-close range she's slippery but generally outranged.

Her anti platform camp game is too good though. Dat up air.

Anyway, I don't doubt you guys, just wondering.

 

[Superspright]

Samus' recovery is as linear as it gets sometimes. If she's low and HAS to grapple--then you HAVE to kill her. If she gets the ledge that is one thing, but anywhere below and you should be able to punish. We need to get more creative on the edge-guards. We got a massive, deadly toolset. No one should ever come back. Ever.

 

[Dorsey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG0yxXL5DJs

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i used to think samus was impossible to edgeguard lol. if they know how to sweetspot the grapple, then you have to catch them during the bombs, during which they are rather mobile, oddly enough. later in the set, i started to uair a lot more, and in fact combo'd with it a few times. her up B sweetspots really good, but if you grab the ledge, they'll grapple. if they have good DI at all, they don't really recover low...ever.

i do agree though, in general, people shouldn't be coming back vs us. bair, uair, fair, and our tilts are way too good to let people get through.

 

[G. Vice]

Superspright, if you ever get a chance to watch IHSB vids, do so. He is by no means a linear Samus, and edgeguarding him with Ganon(though effective as Ganon is good at edgeguarding) is tricky and often times leads to difficulties.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo gvice, i really hope i get to play you sometime within the next year. it'd be like ganon dittoing myself, except i think you're a little better/more experienced right now. so much would be learned, and so much fun would be had.

 

[Dorsey]

In comparing you and g. vice though... lets take your two most common opponents, you sneak, and him chamberlin. Sneak does not have great ganon game from how I see him approach the MU in general(I am not trying to downplay EITHER of you two, I think you are both good players)... Then there's chamberlin, who has pretty good ganon game, but if I had to guess isn't as well-rounded as sneak in other match-ups. As in, although chamb. may beat g.vice at a tourney, mah boy g.vice could very well wreck all the people who beat chamb. This is just what I thought when I saw that, or took into consideration I mean... Not a critic. IMO after playing you though, I think ACE is a little better than you, and I also think that g.vice is a little better than ACE. I'll have a better opinion once I play you more, though... we didn't get nearly enough games in as we should have, and when we were cycling turns with dudes of lesser skill + after smoking.. I think the atmosphere went from competitive to lax. so, my opinion could be wrong, could use more info! You have certainly gotten tons better and are enthusiastic about improving.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, i was just watching some good gvice vs chamberlin vids, to check out how he approaches the fox matchup. i think you're pretty spot on, dorsey.

 

[spider_sense]

lol You guys want good Ganon training. Come to Florida. Anyways, Chris I wanted to talk to you about your recent matches with DarkSyde. I want you to try incorporating more regrabs and try shield grabbing often with you can. It seems like you don't have any strong follow ups, but your stage control and spacing game did improve quite a bit. Also please power shield those lasers, it makes them rethink their approaches and creates viable zoning for you.

@ Samus MU - I beat Esam Samus and played 3, both really good players nontheless. It is definitely an even matchup, but it could be SLIGHTLY in Ganon's favor, only because he can utilize the platforms and can dominate Samus with good spacing. Edge guarding though is mad tricky though. If she grapples, I just try to run of uair or fair as soon as the grapple hits the ledge since both those moves cover the options forward and down. And I think the best way to combat Samus's up-b is Tipman spiking her over and over again until she's low enough for you to grab the ledge; dair or whatever.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah Samus' recovery isn't very linear if the samus player knows what he's doing. I don't recommend going offstage unless you can get good option coverage (with a fair or quick uair/bair) or if you have a lot of confidence in a read (if so, go for it). One edgeguard I like is wavedash offstage to bair/uair. It's really fast and great if you read a dj. Problem is, it's not that lethal if they DI it well (bair). I like to use the tipman spike onstage and mixup dairs. Dairs can be meteor canceled of course, but it really puts the pressure on (meteor cancel or DIE, *****!). Sucks when her up-B hits you off a meteor cancel though and you blow your KO opportunity. I don't know if the up-B will hit or not if you l-cancel the dair and buffer a jump (in which case you could easily fastfall and space a tipman spike or bair on her meteor cancel up-B, which will most likely be much higher than a sweetspot), maybe not though her up-B is fast lol. I usually try my best to to play conservatively and space attacks so that I don't trade hits or get hit and blow the KO opportunity. Better safe than sorry; you don't want to get caught offstage if something goes wrong.

@Jason's obvious FL Ganon love: Yeah I plan on going there and playing some of you sometime (I've actually played emilio and dennis, but I gotta play you!). It'll only be a matter of time before I'm on a job in FL.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, my powershielding was off all that day. with both lasers and missiles. it's something i need to regain once i play more often. it's hard to see how you finished your match vs him, and how i choked at the end. he did the same roll you punished too, at TO6, and i didn't see it in time. I'm getting there though.

with edgeguarding samus, i usually try to hit her right when her bomb actually hits her. it's where she has the least mobility and options, i think. if they don't bomb that close, then i think the best thing to do is just keep her from regaining any real stage control with bair and stuff.

 

[Superspright]

If you are having problems with people meteoring the dair, then just edge-cancel and follow up with another one. Viola. Dead person.

Oh and Chris. You get a lot of power-shields as people have mentioned, but you don't do very much with them. I try to always react out of a powershield...but I only powershield if I know I can react. It's hard to explain. But if someone tries to firefox my face, I am going to PS then stomp it. If I PS an fsmash from falco I am gonna drop shield and jab/grab. Just make your powershields count. I think they are under-utilized because of our OoS game isn't spectacular. I think up-b can be sexy once in a while. The only thing beating that is a spot-dodge at those ranges.

Also I never said she wasn't tricky. But I think a lot of the problem with edge-guarding Samus is the duration of the edge-guards. They are long and drawn out, and most of us want to expedite the process by going with a bair, or something else. It's all about patience and knowing when. I know some Ganons got this edge-guard down like captain falcon.

 

[Divinokage]

Where you at, Ganons!? =P

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

up-b OoS is guaranteed after blocking falco's up-tilt

 

[G. Vice]

In comparing you and g. vice though... lets take your two most common opponents, you sneak, and him chamberlin. Sneak does not have great ganon game from how I see him approach the MU in general(I am not trying to downplay EITHER of you two, I think you are both good players)... Then there's chamberlin, who has pretty good ganon game, but if I had to guess isn't as well-rounded as sneak in other match-ups. As in, although chamb. may beat g.vice at a tourney, mah boy g.vice could very well wreck all the people who beat chamb. This is just what I thought when I saw that, or took into consideration I mean... Not a critic. IMO after playing you though, I think ACE is a little better than you, and I also think that g.vice is a little better than ACE. I'll have a better opinion once I play you more, though... we didn't get nearly enough games in as we should have, and when we were cycling turns with dudes of lesser skill + after smoking.. I think the atmosphere went from competitive to lax. so, my opinion could be wrong, could use more info! You have certainly gotten tons better and are enthusiastic about improving.

Lol well Chams is really solid vs me and pretty good vs Ganon for sure. But Arbustos is probably one of the best vs Ganon here in Arkansas.He plays Falcon mainly vs me, and gets a lot of success.I actually play him more than Chams, me and Chams just so happen to have the most recorded vids posted. We have some amazingly close matches. I think overall he may be a little better than myself as well as Chamberlin. At least this is what I can judge by how he performs versus myself. I really wanna play all you Ganons out there.

But actually Chris, it's sad how little I've been out of state. honestly, I bet with you living close to those guys in NC you have more tourney practice than I do.

I need to play ACE, Chris, and I wanna play you too spidey :D

 

[Beat!]

Where you at, Ganons!? =P

Congrats to you and Axe. Good **** :D

 

[VGmasta]

up-b OoS is guaranteed after blocking falco's up-tilt

Hmmmm.. Word?!
Like if Falco's close enough to Uptilt -> shine, can Ganon Up-B OoS before the shine comes out?!

Congrats to you and Axe. Good **** :D

What happened?!

It'll only be a matter of time before I'm on a job in FL.

Do you have any idea where in FL you're gonna be working?

 

[Beat!]

Kage and Axe won Zenith teams. Apparently they 3-0d both Mango/G$ and Hax/M2K.

 

[Magus420]

U-tilt is like -10 to -12 depending on how close Falco is (closer having more disadvantage since it hits earlier), and if it's stale (will usually be 5 stun most of the time unless it's completely fresh). Shine can come out before the up-b, but if they're that close to reach with shine after u-tilt you can shieldgrab the u-tilt if you're facing that way. If they u-tilt out of shieldgrab range or out of shine range on your back the up-b will almost always get them when timed well unless they expect the up-b and sidestep. Will always be able to beat u-tilt -> u-tilt though. Actually, since you can move during the startup of up-b you could probably move away to be safe from shine then turn around as it comes out if they u-tilt close on the back of the shield, but I haven't tried it.

 

[Walt]

So Zelgadis and Bob$ keep telling me to switch mains from Falcon to Ganon. They say my Ganon is mad good and is way better than my Falcon, but I feel like I can't make Ganon work after a while of play. Like, after one or two rounds they figure everything out and I can't get in a position for those juicy punishes. They figure out to just camp me, get a small advantage and put me on the offensive. Which maybe I'm bad at as Ganon? I think my defense with him is spot on though.

 

[Dorsey]

Those juicy punishes are great with ganon, but a lot of times you have to settle for the less-juicy punishment if you feel it's more prone to catch them off guard. This is what I always look for as ganon.. stuff that will catch them off-guard so consequently they will be less likely to DI it well. Lets say your below someone and they're about to tech on a platform.. and lets say they're either mostly on the left or right side, and not in the dead center of it... and lets also assume you're pretty much below them. Jumping with a bair can cover tech in place and rolling towards the closest end of the platform if spaced right. So you can cover two options by doing that, or perhaps go for the juicy FAIR punishment if he rolls to the far side of the platform...... A lot of times, going for that fair is going to pay off.. but one thing is for sure: You can always FAKE that initial bair punish by going for it but also spacing yourself kind of in the middle of the platform, or in jab range I mean... so your opponent will be lured into rolling to the far end, right into a jab. Definitely less juicy, but I feel like doing stuff like that(doing the unexpected) in turn makes your opponent more predictable to you... so in the long run you get more "juicy" punishments..

comments anyone?

 

[Walt]

It's not really knowing when I can get punishes or not, it's the opportunity happening at all. After a little bit they just play really safe and I guess my stage control/decisions on when to throw out a move to hold position or where to stand just to be imposing isn't as strong as I need for me to not get falcon combo'd in the face. Gotta get that Warrior aura and make people be stupid just be playing against me.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i like that example, dorsey. i actually think thats one of those times where that fullhop nair autocancel would be cool, yet effective. i think that was the last post tipman made lol. i keep trying to use it, and that's like the only thing i can find with it. if the nair hits, it often combo's too. the other thing i like to do with nair, is a super late nair on a shield. it almost looks like a tomahawk, but the nair adds some shieldstun, and i think is enough for you to roll away or something. a lot of times, my tomahawks get predicted, and i end up grabbed first. i know falcons like the late nair on shield, and even though it doesn't lead to a grab for us like it does for them, it still has its use. if you're looking for a shieldpoke though, late uair is better, like if you think they'll try to roll away right before you land.

and yeah, congrats to kage/axe to winning zenith teams. that's pretty impressive.