How to SHDF

[Proverbs]

Well, I've seen enough threads every so often about how to short hop double f-air, and everyone's response typically seems to be "practice." And for the timing of the second f-air, that's definitely true. You just need to spend time finding out how long it takes in between f-airs and get used to that.

But that tends not to be the problem. Because, for people who are just picking it up, their problem seems mainly to be when to start the first f-air. Because if it's not working they're not sure if they're mistiming the first f-air or the second f-air.

And here's where my advice comes in: Use Falco.

See, I recently started picking up Falco and one of the biggest problems I had with him was getting used to the timing for his wavedashing and JC grabs. So I spent a lot of the first few weeks after I started learning Falco mostly playing him and not so much Marth. Later on I was in a friendly 1 v 1 using Marth and I tried to JC grab, and then something happened.

I realized that the timing for Falco's JC grab is nearly, if not exactly identical to the timing you'd need to do the first f-air in a SHDF. Because in that match once I saw my character didn't grab I quickly tried to grab again, and accidentally did a perfect SHDF. This also works extremely well if you intend to use Z for the first f-air, as it really is the same timing for both.

So, for anyone who's new to Marth and having trouble timing this thing, just get used to Falco's JC grabs and apply that to Marth. Problem solved.

--RedMage--

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Do people still SHDF o_o?

 

[Niko45]

Yes it is great if the first fair hits. And as far as the timing for the first fair, just do it as soon as possible?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Do people still SHDF o_o?

It's still good to use every now and then.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Um. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree here because there's a LOT of variation for Falco's jump cancel grab. The fastest is going to be hitting grab a frame after pushing jump, and the slowest will be a frame before you leave the ground. Falco leaves the ground on frame six, so that's five different kinds of timings. And ideally with the grab, you're gonna go for the fastest timing since that'll give you the fastest grab, obviously.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ah, how good it is to see a "How do you SHDF" thread. Reminds me of the good ol days.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Um. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree here because there's a LOT of variation for Falco's jump cancel grab. The fastest is going to be hitting grab a frame after pushing jump, and the slowest will be a frame before you leave the ground. Falco leaves the ground on frame six, so that's five different kinds of timings. And ideally with the grab, you're gonna go for the fastest timing since that'll give you the fastest grab, obviously.

Yup. Maybe include something like "If you can JC grab with falco at the longest time w/o leaving the ground......"
My timing with every JC grabs is the same.
Except in brawl.....

 

[Proverbs]

Um. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree here because there's a LOT of variation for Falco's jump cancel grab. The fastest is going to be hitting grab a frame after pushing jump, and the slowest will be a frame before you leave the ground. Falco leaves the ground on frame six, so that's five different kinds of timings. And ideally with the grab, you're gonna go for the fastest timing since that'll give you the fastest grab, obviously.

If you can just press Z a frame after pressing X (or whatever you use for jump), why then do different characters have different timings for JC grabs?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

or:
short hop -> fair x2

 

[MarkLoo]

If you can just press Z a frame after pressing X (or whatever you use for jump), why then do different characters have different timings for JC grabs?

characters have different startup times for their jumps. For example, falco's six and fox's four, iirc. The jump can be cancelled into a grab during any of the frames of the startup lag, so characters with laggier jumps have larger windows to jc their grabs. So while their windows vary, I think elvenarrow is right in that all characters can jc grab after just one frame.

 

[Niko45]

It's the same reason why diff characters have harder/easier short hops (their jumps start up faster/slower).

 

[Requiem]

I've actually been having more of a hard time on my SH'd fair > urair these days >_<

 

[elvenarrow3000]

characters have different startup times for their jumps. For example, falco's six and fox's four, iirc. The jump can be cancelled into a grab during any of the frames of the startup lag, so characters with laggier jumps have larger windows to jc their grabs. So while their windows vary, I think elvenarrow is right in that all characters can jc grab after just one frame.

^-- This.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Just slide between the buttons or use lazy thumb (hitting different buttons with different parts of your thumb to minimize movement) for speed. If you can't do it fast enough with moving your thumb "normally" that is. I never understood this use Z business, it just makes it harder for me.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, the Z just makes me grab. I use A for the first and C-stick the other one. Good stuff.

Also, jump cancel grabs PISS me off in Brawl. It's like... I see an opening, and I run in, then I suddenly airdodge over their heads. Yeah, game. G'job. That's exactly what I wanted to do.

 

[ArcNatural]

Yeah, the Z just makes me grab. I use A for the first and C-stick the other one. Good stuff.

Also, jump cancel grabs PISS me off in Brawl. It's like... I see an opening, and I run in, then I suddenly airdodge over their heads. Yeah, game. G'job. That's exactly what I wanted to do.

Then don't play Brawl, that's what I do. As for the whole shdf business, I think people just figure out ways to get it to work for them. As long as you have a bunch of advice on how to do it, you'll figure it out eventually.

 

[ynnek123]

the best way to shdf is don't play brawl. that's how I learned it

and please enlighten me on why shdf is NOW bad and wasn't before? not like i used it that much, i'm just curious

 

[Proverbs]

or:
short hop -> fair x2

--; You're just mad we couldn't get you a ride to Super Mass. Bros. ;p

characters have different startup times for their jumps. For example, falco's six and fox's four, iirc. The jump can be cancelled into a grab during any of the frames of the startup lag, so characters with laggier jumps have larger windows to jc their grabs. So while their windows vary, I think elvenarrow is right in that all characters can jc grab after just one frame.

This is why the timing for pressing the buttons would make Marth do the first f-air in a SHDF. Anyway, I only use Z for going right. For going left I tend to c-stick both. Well, to be honest, I switch between using Z, A, and C-stick whenever I choose. I just happened to use Z that one time and realized that the timing for JC grabbing with Falco and doing the first f-air in a SHDF with Marth are very similar.

Anyway, I just made this to see if I could help anyone coming in here that otherwise would have started a topic about not being able to SHDF. You don't see them every day now, but I used to see them come up every now and then.

 

[RestInPeace]

I'll try the thing with the Z.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno about why it's bad, I still think it's good for comboing if you know when to use it. Maybe it's the epidemic of crouch canceling.

 

[Sybawave]

Wait...Z is the best for an somewhat stationary to moving forward SHDF but C-Stick is the best for a retreating and pretty stationary SHDF...

And they are bad depending on what/who you are fighting lol and how well you can space with them

 

[RestInPeace]

I can SHDF now, but not because I used Z. Z actually just made me JC grab. I timed it with Falco and tried it with Marth and still JC grabbed. I just SH and spam A.

 

[Sybawave]

That's a bad idea...I can't remember the reason why though lol I just remember everyone telling me not to do that XD

 

[Proverbs]

I can SHDF now, but not because I used Z. Z actually just made me JC grab. I timed it with Falco and tried it with Marth and still JC grabbed. I just SH and spam A.

*shrug* It helps me to do it more consistently, but I'm still fine double c-sticking it to the left.

 

[Sybawave]

You can't do it right can you lol my friend can't either XD

 

[halcyon.days]

I actually couldn't double c-stick SHDF when I started playing Marth. Then i took up Fox. Now it's no prob lol.

 

[ComboTurtle]

double c sticking double fairs both ways is fine imo

 

[TidalWave]

double c sticking double fairs both ways is fine imo

This is what I do, never had any problems.

 

[The Greater Leon]

ive just had an epiphany

short hop with up

:O

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Why? Then you can't do retreating SHDFs.

Or pivot jump attack (which I do use).

Just get faster fingers lol.

 

[rustediron]

Just get faster fingers lol.

That's where the 'learn falco' advice helps, I guess :S

 

[soap]

its really not hard to do with the cstick both ways. i use it like that when i need neutral or retreating DI

if im going forward in a combo im just lazy and use A