How to Deal with Really Irritating Moves Discussion: Move 5, G&W Nair/Bair/Gayness

[Liquid Gen]

Alright. I though this would be a fairly good idea for the Bowser boards, since Bowser suffers from so much. This thread will open up discussion on the various things that screw Bowser over or are just plain annoying.

Now, let's start this.




Move One -- King Dedede's Infinite Chaingrab
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King Dedede has a very *****y chaingrab on Bowser; it's not infinite, but it might as well be. He can get a good ~100% on you from one end of FD to the other. If you want to go Boozer all the way, you must:

-Koopahop. A lot. Koopahopping is hard to punish normally and is very hard to grab Bowser in the air.

-Pick Battlefield. The platforms on Battlefield let you platform camp, preventing Dedede from getting a grab in on you.

-Use fire more often than usual. Don't spam it though, but use it quite a bit. Fire tears his approach up and gives you some good damage on him.

-Cp NORFAIR. Norfair's all platformness prevent Dedede's chaingrab period. Besides that, Norfair is Bowser's best stage anyway. This coupled with no CG = raep.

-Space a lot to prevent grabbing (durr).

Move Two -- Snake's neutral Air
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Snake's Nair is really gay. Really. It does like 20-30 percent when all hits connect, and we can't DI out of it as well as other characters (since Bowser is fat). So, we have to beat Snake BEFORE he hits us. To beat Nair:

-Up tilt Snake mid nair animation. It beats it out and hurts him in the process.

-Shield all of the hits and punish the lag.

-Space yourself well to avoid it, and punish the lag with one of Bowser's epic punishing moves.

-THEORETICALLLY, you can upB between Snake's kicks, though this is untested/unverified. If anyone could test this it would be appreciated.

-Attempt to DI away from Snake when he rises, and towards him when he's falling. This should get you out of the way of the last hit (even though its real hard for Bowser to DI).



Move Three -- Metaknight's Tornado
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The tornado is very annoying, doing decent damage plus having insane priority. But, we can counter it:

- A Koopa Klaw will tear through the tornado when spaced right, very nice when koopahopping.

-Ftilt can break it as well; be sure to place it correctly, as with the klaw.

-If you don't trust your spacing, a simple up-angled shield to an up b or grab will work just fine.

-After being sent up by the tornado, if the Metaknight was following you in the air, immediately Bowser Bomb after release; you will catch the Metaknight in his lag.

Move Four -- Snake Nades
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Snake's nades are pretty gay, and they're used often. Luckily, we can easily counter them.

-Koopahop to the nade camping snake, and, well, it's pretty obvious; Klaw them.

-Throw the nades back at Snake when possible; if in the air, press Z to catch them and throw them at him again.



Move Five -- Game&Watch's Nair/Bair/Gayness
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[Liquid Gen]

Reserved for future space.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

don't get grabbed

really basic

now, bowser does not have as many ways to avoid grabs, so just make a note to never shield when he's on the ground, shielding aerials is fine, if you ever don't feel comfortable, upb and back away to give yourself a breather. pay very close attention to your spacing, and i highly recommend claw hopping since it cannot be punished conventionally. on the ground, know the full range of the koopa claw, and use it whenever he does a running shield. space with jabs when he goes in, fire if he tries to space with ftilt. if he shields an attack GTFO.


ledge camp if you have to, ledge hopping sideb for 3 stocks is possible

EDIT: hopefully you'll get a stage like battlefield, if you do, don't leave the platforms

 

[Liquid Gen]

^ True. NL said he owned Dedede 3 times with just Koopahopping to avoid grabs. That seems about the best possible way to play them. (that and platforms of course)

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, unless he's really familiar with the matchup (i.e. never) he'll just go for grabs

 

[Liquid Gen]

Though I doubt there is more to discuss, I will leave this open to more discussion from other members.

 

[MrEh]

Infinite Jump a lot. Har har. Dedede is also powerless against the almighty Fire, if you use is sparingly.


Or just take his fat butt to Norfair.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Updated with new move; not much on Dedede's grab after all.

NAir is a pain. Real hard to DI out of like normal. Discuss.

ALSO: How do I edit the topic title? lulz

 

[MrEh]

You can change the topic title by editing your original post.


As for the Nair, just Utilt the thing. Seriously.

 

[Flayl]

There are very few characters that Bowser can fight head on in the air. FAir snake when he's in a bad position, UAir/BAir/OverB when he's recovering, but don't fight him head on in the air. SNake's NAir, like most of his aerials, has pretty bad landing lag, so just stay on the ground and shield that ****.

 

[DeactoVater]

I feel lucario is impossible to go head to head with in the Air because of his Quick Fair with Crazy range and Magic hands/feet.

Lucario seems to be hard matchup for me do to his range.

Question: is Dedede's Infinite grab ban in most tourney's?

 

[Seagull Joe]

to avoid ddd cg i hate to do it or say it but camp at the ledge.cant cg u if it just chucks u off the edge.also ban fd at all costs.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Apparently Utilt is the way to go... Any more opinions?

 

[Blistering Speed]

M2k once said that MK can U Air out of Snake's N Air between two of the kicks, though I don't remember which kick you could do it after. I surmise the same would be true of Fortress aswell thanks to it's frame 1 invincibility (MK's U Air comes out frame 2).

 

[Liquid Gen]

...

Kidding right?

We need someone to test that.

 

[Blistering Speed]

No seriously, look it up in the MK board archives, it was several months ago.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Updated with move 3, tornado. Will up date Nair soon.

Discuss

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Angle your shield upwards if he uses it a lot. Many people get shieldstabbed because they still don't know how to angle the shield right...just upwards, that's it. If you see it coming from a distance Bowser has many moves to beat it: Fortress, ftilt, probably dtilt...he can even grab him out of the tornado! The biggest problem is to keep MK at a distance from where you can defend yourself right in time, although jabs should do the job (mosk MKs don't try to get too close anyways...). If MK is close enough he outspeeds your ftilt, which is bad...Fortress is the single most reliable move Bowser has without a doubt but it's still quite a laggy and thus risky move if you overuse it.

Fire Breath doesn't beat the tornado btw don't even bother trying it.

 

[Maniclysane]

Use fortress. I would only use shield if you have to, because it eats up your shield.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I have to disagree, fire does beat tornado, though not always. It depends how many hits you get on it. Plus, drill is included.

 

[Flayl]

Shield-> fortress, dash attack.

 

[MrEh]

Shield the darn thing.

Everything else that goes through it, like the Ftilt and Klaw, are too situational.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Ftilt isn't to situational, though the Klaw is. Just hit him where it hurts.

Although this doesn't mean much; up angled shield is the way to go.

 

[Sushi-Man]

I am a mk player and good bowser players always shield->fortress and it works. Doing this a few times makes the mk player use tornado more sparingly which is good for bowser.

 

[Overswarm]

I come with a message from Sliq, the vanguard of these forums.

Something that should be looked into is ledge cancelling the fortress (i.e. fortressing, going off the stage and grabbing the edge).

People are going to argue it is risky, but if you are able to get it down, the fortress becomes unpunishable, which will aggivate the **** out of your opponent.

Also, up b out of shield against whorenado is amazing.

Furthermore, you should try to di the last hit of the whorenado so it sends u diagonally towards the edge. That way, you can bowser bomb to the ledge before MK has recovered from the whorenado

 

[Liquid Gen]

Yeah, I've done it a lot; up b ledge cancel is sex. Also, can someone write the tornado summary for me? I r lazy. Also updated OP and title.

 

[B!squick]

Was UpBing to the ledge easier in Melee? Or does Gimpyfish just make it look easier?

As for Snake 'nades... well, dropped one's I'd assume you avoid as best you can, thrown can be dodged, but I don't usually see Snake chucking them at me when they know what they're doing. Um... ****, what do you to combat 'nades? I can't think of anything. x_x

 

[Blistering Speed]

If they're cooked, shield it, Bowser can shield that **** all day if he wants.
If they aren't cooked, powershield and throw the thing back where it came. People really don't throw grenades back enough.
If he has a grenade in hand or he has just shield dropped it, Firebreath works well as well as spacing any of Bowser's disjointed attacks.
If they're lying on the ground, throw if you have time (you should always be conscious of how close a grenade is to exploding) or shield because Bowser can take it easily.
Koopahopping also helps get over the spam, Snake's grenade spam becomes alot more limited if you aren't grounded.

 

[LinIsKorean]

I'm going to agree with Blistering Speed on this. The shield is your best friend (as usual).

I like Fire-Breath for any dropped nades that are near enough to Snake to hit him, but you need to space well otherwise you'll get hit.

If you pick up a nade, throw it back as soon as possible, a smart Snake can just shield drop a nade which will make you drop yours.

 

[MrEh]

Firebreath ***** grenade countering. Klaw works too.

 

[B!squick]

Lol, I wonder, is the omnigay possible with Klaw at the peak of the flip?

 

[MrEh]

Lol, I wonder, is the omnigay possible with Klaw at the peak of the flip?

No, Bowser doesn't jump high enough for it to work. Only at obscenely high percents would it work.

 

[Kyas]

No, Bowser doesn't jump high enough for it to work. Only at obscenely high percents would it work.

Yeah, percents that would only mean you aren't using Bowser properly.

 

[Jonas]

Hehe, if your opponent is at 140% and not dead, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Cyndi]

Hehe, if your opponent is at 140% and not dead, you're doing it wrong.

Word. Yet I still get nailed with the same problem >.<

 

[Liquid Gen]

OK.

I finally updated this thread lolol, and added 2 summaries.

So start discussing nao.

 

[B!squick]

UpB OoS. Otherwise space like you've never spaced before and hope for the best agaist G&W.

Oh, and be thankful that he dies at really low percents... Bucket Cancelling aside...

 

[MrEh]

Run away and shield.

In all seriousness, you can wait until he messes up or becomes predictable. (Turtle approaches for instance.) If you can predict where he's going to be, you can intercept and punish. Run from the turtle, wait until you see an opening, and strike.

Oh, and OoS Fortress against Gdubs who don't space.