*how to cower* (what moves can Sheik duck under)

[saviorslegacy]

What can Sheik duck under?

*warning*
To much ducking from getting scared can result in laughter at you (no not really).

So I got bored at testing for what jab locks and decided to see what Pikachu's grabs do to us. I got side tracked and noticed a list of what Pika can duck under. I then realized that our duck is freakin awesome.
So I done some testing.
*All tests where do at FD in training mode*



You can sometimes duck under his fire balls.


Uair


u-tilt
Uair
It also makes hitting with Nair really hard.


u-tilt
Uair
This also makes hitting with Nair really hard.


USmash
Uair
This also makes hitting with Nair really hard.
This also makes hitting with Bair really hard.


Uair
You can duck under most uncharged peanuts.
Monkey Flip (for over half of the move.. fear the ending though)


You you duck under most throw eggs.
Uair
USmash.
This also makes hitting with Fair really hard.


This also makes hitting with Uair really hard.


You can duck under the second hit of USmash. (escape)
first hit of Fair
This also makes hitting with Nair really hard.
Boomerang
Arrow (this can hit you when it starts falling into the stage)
Bombs (except when they are at the end of their flight distance or when thrown down)
Zair


jab
f-tilt (with the exception of one being tilted down)
u-tilt
USmash (the only way to be hit by USmash is if Sheiks head is under Zelda's dress) *sketchy activity*
uncharged Fire Balls
Uair

:shiek:
Uair


jab
Nair
Wiz Kick (when not used in the air)
Uair (with the exception of the tiny hit box behind Ganon)
grab
Thunder stomping


Dash attack - you can duck the hit until the final frames aka getting hit by his body not his foot (though you down tilt him to interupt this, or just crawl backwards
lasers - including silent lasers
down B - yes you can duck under falco's reflector, even right next to him
jab - you can duck the first/second hit but not the rapid jabs
nair - you can duck this move period i believe


All of marth's aerials can hit you while ducking other than u-air, but they have to actually be trying to hit you down on the ground and you can just fair him at the start of his animations most of the time

side note - down tilt out spaces the start of marth's sideB


Bair - you can duck this unless he literally falls on your face with bair and then he has lag so free punsih

Fair - same as bair though he may not be able to hit you at all

u-air - your joking right?

Dair - of course he can hit you

f-tilt - you can duck the start up of this and d-tilt him out of it

sideB - you can cralw under these as he throws them


bair - you can duck this when he's going up with it

zair - you can duck this when he's going up with it

projectiles of course you duck these depending on your spacing/if he angles them


jab (first hit)
thrown grenades
decreases grab range
Naritak Missile (IDK what it is called) (this can also be dropped on you are angled down)
FH Nair (only the last hit)
This also makes hitting with Uair really hard.



I'll finish later. If anyone wants to help I would appreciate it.

Special thanks goes to UnKnOwN for completing Falco, Marth, King Dedede and Toon Link.

 

[Icyo]

Then what? Dtilt? Dsmash? Crawl away? Aerials are pretty obvious. You should keep them off the list.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Then what? Dtilt? Dsmash? Crawl away? Aerials are pretty obvious. You should keep them off the list.

Why, people space with airials.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

savior what's your aim

 

[stealth3654]

A lot of people will not try to up air a grounded opponent.

I did find interesting, though, that Sheik can duck under Snake's FH neutral air and it decreases his grab range. Is it only the last hit of the nair, or can Sheik duck under all four hits? Also, who else's grab range is decreased by ducking?

Edit: Does crawling change Sheik's hurtbox or affect any of the things you tested?

 

[saviorslegacy]

savior what's your aim

don't have one, vut I have Skype.
Right now my CPU is busted (I'm using mah bro's). I'll PM you my cell phone number though.

A lot of people will not try to up air a grounded opponent.

I did find interesting, though, that Sheik can duck under Snake's FH neutral air and it decreases his grab range. Is it only the last hit of the nair, or can Sheik duck under all four hits? Also, who else's grab range is decreased by ducking?

Edit: Does crawling change Sheik's hurtbox or affect any of the things you tested?

I didn't list it but Crawling affects f-tilt, grabs and FSmashs range of some characters.
If you Crawl at Ganons feet his FSmash will miss you entirely.



SInce the CPU is busted I probably wont be updating much.
I'll try and get it fixed ASAP.

 

[kingcobra9]

she can't duck under snakes missle and other things since they are kind of guided

 

[saviorslegacy]

she can't duck under snakes missle and other things since they are kind of guided

This guide is still a baby.
I know you can't duck under that.... when guided down. You can duck under that when it is just used normally, and that is what I was getting at.

 

[SinkingHigher]

lol then why did you post it if you knew it wasn't true.

I mean, are they just going to not be able to see you when you're ducking?

Saviors, you're like a train wreck, I just can't look away.

 

[-Mars-]

SiHi Sheik becomes invisible when she crouches........she's a ninja. LRN2CrouchPlox

 

[choknater]

lmao why do u call it 'cowar' anwyay

 

[saviorslegacy]

lol then why did you post it if you knew it wasn't true.

I mean, are they just going to not be able to see you when you're ducking?

Saviors, you're like a train wreck, I just can't look away.

I didn't post anything false.
I am talking about how things can be avoided when angled down... yet.
If you want to plat it that way the Zelda's f-tilt also hits.

SiHi Sheik becomes invisible when she crouches........she's a ninja. LRN2CrouchPlox

Well... when she croucjhes she produces one of the smallest hurt boxs in the game.

lmao why do u call it 'cowar' anwyay

Even seen Little Racals?
Ever seen them curl up in a small ball in fear or to not be seen?

 

[Zankoku]

Why bother angling it down? Just hit R when the Nikita is directly above Sheik and it'll drop, lol. Saying you can crouch under Nikita if the opponent doesn't do anything with it is like saying you can crouch under grenades if the opponent tosses them right over your head.

 

[choknater]

LOL that's "cower" like to cower in fear

 

[saviorslegacy]

Why bother angling it down? Just hit R when the Nikita is directly above Sheik and it'll drop, lol. Saying you can crouch under Nikita if the opponent doesn't do anything with it is like saying you can crouch under grenades if the opponent tosses them right over your head.

Yeah so, I have only gathered basic data.
You can't crouch under bombs when tossed down can you? no
Right now you have to use logic to read the little bit of info I have listed.

LOL that's "cower" like to cower in fear

Oh oops....
thanks for correcting me

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah so, I have only gathered basic data.
You can't crouch under bombs when tossed down can you? no
Right now you have to use logic to read the little bit of info I have listed.

Yeah, see, this is the problem. Applications are nice, and seeing common possibilities are nice. Seeing a list that includes counters to level 0 opponents is kinda useless. This is not a list that should only be set with basic data. By basic data, you can crouch and not get hit by almost anything if they're out of range, but that situation happens to be largely irrelevant. Same case here, with a Snake firing a Nikita right over you and not caring that you duck under it. That's not going to happen.

 

[stealth3654]

Saviors, how significant is the range decrease of Snake's grab when ducking and who else's grab range does ducking reduce?

 

[kingcobra9]

Grab range reduction however could be handy

 

[SinkingHigher]

imo the only good thing about crouching is avoiding lasers, the occasional d-tilt, and doing a DACUS out of crawl for mindgames. I really don't see why this information is at all useful. If someone tries to attack me im going to block or evade it on reaction, and ducking will probably get me punished at close range anyway.

Well, I at least hope this is useful to just one sheik player somewhere.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Yeah, see, this is the problem. Applications are nice, and seeing common possibilities are nice. Seeing a list that includes counters to level 0 opponents is kinda useless. This is not a list that should only be set with basic data. By basic data, you can crouch and not get hit by almost anything if they're out of range, but that situation happens to be largely irrelevant. Same case here, with a Snake firing a Nikita right over you and not caring that you duck under it. That's not going to happen.

This guide is like most anything else.
Thomas Eddison made a light bulb, took him 1,000 try's though.
I'm not saying that I will take 1,000 edits to get this guide right. I am saying that it is in its first stages of evolution (funny bein a christian and using that word).
When I get my CPU back and I can test I'll finish this guide by first listing everyone else. -_-
Then I will un list the moves that are dumb and list moves that get less range.

After that I will test things that are sketchy and wait for someone to say "uh, this one thing isn't right". If that never happens then the guide will be done

Saviors, how significant is the range decrease of Snake's grab when ducking and who else's grab range does ducking reduce?

Maybe a 1/3. IDK though.
Tape an analog down, go into training mode and see for yourself.

Grab range reduction however could be handy

Its not limited to grabs.

 

[Judo777]

I actually use ducking quite a bit if i see an aerial coming and i think that the knockback from shielding might be affected. It could also be useful if its some multi-hit high attack or if you just dont feel like timing the spotdodge. And i was testing today and some characters(ganon was the one we used) cant grab people at all if they are crouching. infact ganon actually had very few options to hit a crouched kirby. I believe they were dtilt, a stomp right on them,utilt and flame choke. nothing else would land i dont think.

 

[j0s3ph]

Falco and Fox's lasers, maybe Wolf's but I'm not sure.
Something that should be tested is if she can duck under certain moves while crawling that she gets hit with while ducking. I know Diddy can crawl under Falco's lasers but if you just duck and sit there, he gets hit.

 

[stealth3654]

Maybe a 1/3. IDK though.
Tape an analog down, go into training mode and see for yourself.

I would, but I won't have access to a Wii to test on until this weekend.

 

[Zankoku]

This guide is like most anything else.
Thomas Eddison made a light bulb, took him 1,000 try's though.
I'm not saying that I will take 1,000 edits to get this guide right. I am saying that it is in its first stages of evolution (funny bein a christian and using that word).

Stop making excuses for every change you might have to make!
There'd be a whole lot less trouble if the whole exchange went like this:

Yeah so, I have only gathered basic data.
You can't crouch under bombs when tossed down can you? no
Right now you have to use logic to read the little bit of info I have listed.

 

[saviorslegacy]

imo the only good thing about crouching is avoiding lasers, the occasional d-tilt, and doing a DACUS out of crawl for mindgames. I really don't see why this information is at all useful. If someone tries to attack me im going to block or evade it on reaction, and ducking will probably get me punished at close range anyway.

Well, I at least hope this is useful to just one sheik player somewhere.

I have a video against a Ganon where I used duck very well.
Also, we screw Links spacing game a little bit.

Seriously, ducking is character dependent.

I actually use ducking quite a bit if i see an aerial coming and i think that the knockback from shielding might be affected. It could also be useful if its some multi-hit high attack or if you just dont feel like timing the spotdodge. And i was testing today and some characters(ganon was the one we used) cant grab people at all if they are crouching. infact ganon actually had very few options to hit a crouched kirby. I believe they were dtilt, a stomp right on them,utilt and flame choke. nothing else would land i dont think.

Uair should land (the back hit)
An airial Wiz Kick would also hit.

Falco and Fox's lasers, maybe Wolf's but I'm not sure.
Something that should be tested is if she can duck under certain moves while crawling that she gets hit with while ducking. I know Diddy can crawl under Falco's lasers but if you just duck and sit there, he gets hit.

Wolf= no

Stop making excuses for every change you might have to make!
There'd be a whole lot less trouble if the whole exchange went like this:



Instead of this:

I didn't understand what you meant.
It is confusing that you used two ":". I get your point but why the second example?

 

[SinkingHigher]

You're telling me it's useful because you did will against a ganondorf?

...Ganondorf?

Really saviors? Really? That's your reasoning?

Why the hell are you even trying to be technical against GANONDORF?!

For ****s sake... IT'S GANONDORF!!

*facepalmdesk*

 

[saviorslegacy]

You're telling me it's useful because you did will against a ganondorf?

...Ganondorf?

Really saviors? Really? That's your reasoning?

Why the hell are you even trying to be technical against GANONDORF?!

For ****s sake... IT'S GANONDORF!!

*facepalmdesk*

Stop flame baiting, boy.

I also said we wreck Links spacing game.
Since it also makes Snakes final hit of Nair miss we can just duck that and possibly counter with an USmash.
It also decreases some hit boxs.

Ducking is far from useless, if it was useless then the other character boards with duck guides are ********.
Stop posting here if all you want to do is bait. I will not have you spamming up this thread and challenging me.

 

[Zankoku]

Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to aim a bomb properly with Link when all you're doing is crouching? How often will Snake do doublejump nairs when he is already known to be a primarily ground-based character? How many times will Ganondorf randomly Wizard Foot at you when you're crouching?

Yeah okay, when opponents do random stupid **** you're golden. I don't see how bringing up avoiding random stupid **** helps your case. See, I pointed out the second example in my previous post because it's exactly what you do. The moment anybody disagrees with one of your ideas or incomplete posts you instantly get all defensive and start accusing them of flaming/trolling/spamming/hating you for no good reason. Stop it. You'll get a lot less hate your way.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to aim a bomb properly with Link when all you're doing is crouching? How often will Snake do doublejump nairs when he is already known to be a primarily ground-based character? How many times will Ganondorf randomly Wizard Foot at you when you're crouching?

Yeah okay, when opponents do random stupid **** you're golden. I don't see how bringing up avoiding random stupid **** helps your case. See, I pointed out the second example in my previous post because it's exactly what you do. The moment anybody disagrees with one of your ideas or incomplete posts you instantly get all defensive and start accusing them of flaming/trolling/spamming/hating you for no good reason. Stop it. You'll get a lot less hate your way.

I have fought 3 Links now. @ of which play tournies (Reeses Pieces and Xavier).
Both of them go crazy mad with spacing Bomb's, Rangs, Arrows and Zairs.
The fact that you can crawl under ALL of this makes this match up a little easier. Ask Marsulas, he plays Link, he'll tell you how vital this is for him.
And why are you even worried about the bombs? If I were you I would have mentioned Boomerangs tilted down.

*FH Nair

Why would he do it when you are already crouching?

SiHi is the only one who has hated in this pst... like usual.



Lemme ask everyone. "Do you think that this is as pointless as Ankoku and SiHi thinks it is?" If so then I'll stop here and tell Ankoku lock the thread.

:EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231441

 

[stealth3654]

I thought that Sheik being able to duck under Snake's last hit of nair was quite interesting. A lot of Snakes that I play with, when hit into the air, like to cover their decent with a nair whenever their air dodges get punished too many times.

Also, reducing grab range has the potential to be useful, but someone needs to find out how much range is reduced and if crawling affects it.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Lemme ask everyone. "Do you think that this is as pointless as Ankoku and SiHi thinks it is?" If so then I'll stop here and tell Ankoku lock the thread.

:EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231441

Rofl saviors.


First words from the link you posted to prove your point that this is a useful idea:

"Ok, so this is pretty useless"

I'm not trying to bait you saviors, and although I will admit you are quite aggravating, I'm simply trying to understand why you think you're being helpful. I mean, let's look at the facts here. Of the (iirc) 7 or 8 or so combos and techs you've "discovered" not one has been useful in any way shape or form. The two that turns out to be plausible turned out to be more situational that anything ever discovered in a fighting game and ended up have better, more efficient versions that were simplistic and already known.

You seem to fail to notice that brawl is about fundamentals. Not once have you spoken about things that matter like spacing, timing, baiting, etc... as a serious matter. Instead you mention them briefly as you so desperately try to find a way to be useful.

The problem with sheiks isn't that the character is horribly bad. At least, not entirely. It's that they're all running around not knowing how to play matchups, trying desperately to land ftilt and chain locks and getting punished for it, getting gimped out of useless techs like vanish glides and ragdolled as they try to spam DACUS when they haven't mastered it.

Just... go build some model airplanes or something...

 

[saviorslegacy]

I thought that Sheik being able to duck under Snake's last hit of nair was quite interesting. A lot of Snakes that I play with, when hit into the air, like to cover their decent with a nair whenever their air dodges get punished too many times.

Also, reducing grab range has the potential to be useful, but someone needs to find out how much range is reduced and if crawling affects it.

Yeah, if a Snake goes to Nair you we can duck, wait for him to come down and punish.

Rofl saviors.


First words from the link you posted to prove your point that this is a useful idea:

"Ok, so this is pretty useless"

I'm not trying to bait you saviors, and although I will admit you are quite aggravating, I'm simply trying to understand why you think you're being helpful. I mean, let's look at the facts here. Of the (iirc) 7 or 8 or so combos and techs you've "discovered" not one has been useful in any way shape or form. The two that turns out to be plausible turned out to be more situational that anything ever discovered in a fighting game and ended up have better, more efficient versions that were simplistic.

You seem to fail to notice that brawl is about fundamentals. Not once have you spoken about things that matter like spacing, timing, baiting, etc... as a serious matter. Instead you mention them briefly as you so desperately try to find a way to be useful.

Just... go build some model airplanes or something...

A lot of what I thought I discovered had already been discovered... that shows I'm not the only one interested in the matter. Go flame them too.

I do not fail to notice that. I'm not a huge fan of baiting, but I do try and space the **** out of Bair and Fair. Timing is just logic.

I wont even touch on the airplane bit....

Don't excpect me to be replying to you anymore *ignore list*.

 

[Zankoku]

I actually wrote a paragraph but my Internet died before I could post it and it's really not worth typing it for you again.

So the short version is that you should really stop spouting stupid **** whenever anyone disagrees with you and just think for a moment about why they're disagreeing with you, instead of automatically going into "oh why don't you flame all these other people too?" or "well hey does anyone else think this is useless huh?" mode.

 

[Judo777]

Oh yea good point SL i should have known about the wizkick and uair im not sure of but that doesnt really matter. I actually think this thread might be useful but of course alot of it will be situational. Alot of character (I'm gonna use ganon for this example even tho i know we wont have this problem) rely on the shear knockback from shielding to prevent getting punished. The Example comes to mind of doing an auto canceled dair on someone like luigi who gets pushed too far back to punish with anything more than like a fireball. Now granted in this case a spot might work just as well but it could be useful to instead duck and crawl toward where he will land even if just for a second to better guarentee a punish or give us more options.

IMO the best use i found for crouching aside from dodge projectiles was i believe we can crouch under D3s bairs which is very important.

 

[iLight]

its funny that i noticed this thread because i was just telling crossjeremiah how much i've started to to crawl more than shield.

Characters that i use it most extensively against and how it works against their moves:
Falco:
Dash attack - you can duck the hit until the final frames aka getting hit by his body not his foot (though you down tilt him to interupt this, or just crawl backwards
lasers - including silent lasers
down B - yes you can duck under falco's reflector, even right next to him
jab - you can duck the first/second hit but not the rapid jabs
nair - you can duck this move period i believe

Marth:
All of marth's aerials can hit you while ducking other than u-air, but they have to actually be trying to hit you down on the ground and you can just fair him at the start of his animations most of the time

side note - down tilt out spaces the start of marth's sideB

D3:
Bair - you can duck this unless he literally falls on your face with bair and then he has lag so free punsih

Fair - same as bair though he may not be able to hit you at all

u-air - your joking right?

Dair - of course he can hit you

f-tilt - you can duck the start up of this and d-tilt him out of it

sideB - you can cralw under these as he throws them

Toon Link -
bair - you can duck this when he's going up with it

zair - you can duck this when he's going up with it

projectiles of course you duck these depending on your spacing/if he angles them


meh that's the main uses i can think of right now other than stuff you probably covered already

 

[#HBC | Scary]

You can probably duck under the Side B of Diddy, so long as you crawl a little bit to avoid the kick part of it. I think ducking under the final hit of Nair is very nifty; can't tell you how many times Afro has killed me with it .

 

[<π]

yeah this is why down tilt is good at times, like agianst marth's aerials, ect.

you can't duck wolf's lazer.

So yeah while this is useful knowledge, most of the time it isn't practice. you actually do have limited options while crouching so you don't want o just crouch in front of your opponent. ftilt is still going to be your best ground based spacer, and walking/running is so important with sheik that I wouldn't trade it for avoiding some move. You aren't going to duck under snakes jab or grab or even FH nair on reaction it is best to just avoid the potential hit all together using your spacing tools.

 

[iLight]

meh, i crawl a lot as a mind game, people tend to think your vulnerable though you can still easily move yourself, powershield, dash attack, aerial, d-tilt or even just stand back up and f-tilt

just saying

 

[saviorslegacy]

meh, i crawl a lot as a mind game, people tend to think your vulnerable though you can still easily move yourself, powershield, dash attack, aerial, d-tilt or even just stand back up and f-tilt

just saying

I have the same opinion.
I need to do it more.
I mainly use it against Falco's though.

I didn't know we wrecked Links spacing game so bad though.
Now that I know this I'll make sure to use it more.

 

[Wolfric]

yeah this is why down tilt is good at times, like agianst marth's aerials, ect.

you can't duck wolf's lazer.

So yeah while this is useful knowledge, most of the time it isn't practice. you actually do have limited options while crouching so you don't want o just crouch in front of your opponent. ftilt is still going to be your best ground based spacer, and walking/running is so important with sheik that I wouldn't trade it for avoiding some move. You aren't going to duck under snakes jab or grab or even FH nair on reaction it is best to just avoid the potential hit all together using your spacing tools.

I <3 <3

Only time I've ducked is against Falco's laser and I actually play most Ganons ducking at times, I rather avoid the rest using other methods... More secure methods, reason why I think this is pretty much pointless for me.