How to approach a spamming Falco.

JFox

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#1
I don't know how to deal with Falcos that laser camp me. The one I play is probably one if, if not the best, at fighting Peach. So whatever advice I get, it can't be for fighting nubs.

Shielding is probably the worst strategy. But he constantly spaces himself with RSDLs, so that I can't get directly above his head. I can sit up above the lasers in my float, but that doesnt get me anywhere. Fair never reaches cuz he retreats with lasers whenever I come down, and than punishes when I wiff. Falling with bair I get CC shined, or outspaced. Also, he typically hides under platforms so that I can't push him to the edge of the stage, cept on FD which he autobans.

I feel like the only strategy peach has is to wait up in float until the falco gets angry enough to approach, but that doesnt work. This matchup sucks. :laugh:
 

t3h stock slayer

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#2
mmmm
if u can power sheild well then approach slowly doing that.
if u cant then i suggest u learn it. i'm trying to get better at it and it helps a lot. it saves u the time from going to have to pick up a turnip to approach XD.

seriously though, powershielding helps a lot in this match up if ur facing someone spammy. at least imho. wich isnt worth much :p but it doesnt seem anyone on the peach boards posts advice in these kinds of threads DX

you could try to do what xif said in corts thread, but u say it doesnt work. so i'de really advise trying to learn to power sheild consistently. once u get the time down its not too hard, and it makes falcos laser spam kinda dumb.

hope i helped D:
if i wasnt any then sorry lol.
 

JFox

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#3
I can powershield pretty well, but i never found that it was very effective against falco simply cuz her movement out of shield isn't very good. I guess I can sit there powershielding until the falco is tired of spamming, but I don't know if that will really work. Also, powershielding would mean getting into my shield, which I'm not sure is very smart. But I'll see if powershielding/shield-camping is effective at all

Oh and camping platforms isn't worth it either. If i'm on the left platform, hes on the right shooting me. if I drop down, he drops down with a laser. If I'm on top platform, he full jump lasers.
 

Europhoria

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#4
So I'm just gonna assume this for Eggm... Ban FD probably because you have no room to pull turnips or whatever.

Approaching with shield is fine, wait until he's done his multi shine crap and up+b him or n-air out of shield. From there you can chase him. Your goal is just to stop the spam so you can run after him. Peach is slow moving, so is Falco though... but Falco hides it by spamming like a ****er. If you can powershield, well that's obviously better because you can powershield and just keep running.

Go onto a platform and pull a turnip out. I know he'll full hop and shoot you but you should be able to get a turnip out. You need your turnips to approach the stupid turkey >_> and all the other top tiers. You'll find it's much easier to approach and land on a f-air or whatever this way.

If he's running away, so much the better. Just keep letting him go to the ledge til he's out of space to run to. Then he'll probably laser in place or try to attack you, punish this and proceed to gimp.
 

JFox

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#5
I'll try turnip approach, but so far it doesnt seem too effective. Idunno, its not like it can be punished, which is good. I just need something that will knock him down so that I can tech chase.
 

Europhoria

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#6
You don't need to knock him down, you just need enough time to get your f-air/other move you plan to approach with out and in his face. Then you can gay him.
 

t3h stock slayer

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#7
I dont think being in a sheild against falco is horrible, well its not good, but u could say that for every char >_>
but it could be worse, i think someone told me upb oos raeps falco whos pressuring yer sheild. i think it was actually europhoria...maybe kirbykaze. idk.
plus if your just ps'ing you should have to worry. You're sending his spam back at him, and approaching at the same time. so it just basically tells him to gtfo XD

but yeah listen to him if anything >_> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
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#8
Foat above his laser range, try to predict his pattern of movement and get over his head as he is shooting a laser, and drop down on him with a dair/fair. OR, even better, (b/c you can do it from a distance) throw a turnip at him when he shoots a laser and then come in with a nair/dair/fair
the important part is to hit him while he is SHL'ing, cuz then he can't do ****
it's obviously hard, esp if your opponent is good at spacing (like you say he is) but something worth trying
 

Samochan

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#9
I know what you're going trough, since my buddy plays an annoying lasering falco as well.

Sitting on the shield is not a good startegy unless you're good at moving out of the shield. Then it becomes a really good strategy. I suggest watching a lot of armada vs calle w vids, he handles falco's lasers well.

When you approach, you can try to powershield one laser, then you jump from shield to float and space yourself. If you have a turnip, you can jump from shield and throw it at him or if he's close, throw it from shield straight to him to create an opening after the laser is gone form your way. There is only a little leeway in jumping from shield to float if the falco is really good at shl and especially altering the height of the laser so he can hit quickly but high. Rolling is good on some occasion if he approaches, but from your description it seems he's the type to retreat with rshl a lot.

What you can do is abuse the platforms and pull a turnip and approach him relentlessly till he lacks space to move. Dair reaches well below you and you can still hit him and he cannot hit you with lasers if you float (but if you attack he can hit you). Nair is pretty good if you float and drop down on his face. Float canceled and spaced one leaves you enough room to shield if he tries to cc it, but at med% he can't do much about semistrong nair that comboes nicely into dash attack to strong nair. Fair works wonders in between the laser camp ****, since he can't cc that and it leaves you with little frames to work with if you're good, plus spacing. Wd from shield is fun as well when they apporach. They laser, then you wd out of range as soon as they try to dair your shield or grab or whatever and you're the one grabbing their ***** now.

Even with platforms, you can guard a platform well if you're under it and unless you lack decent prediction skills, it's barge trough for him or go over you or roll trough you, and every move can be intercepted. Turnips are good if he likes to escape on platforms to limit his movement, then you can force him to go one way and intercept him as he goes there. He also cannot occupy a platform if you're on it instead and do a good job at guarding it too.

Floath spacing is good unless they're really experts at handling peaches that float away a lot to space themselves. It can still work but falco can usually put up a shield afterwards and then it can get trickly if falco is good at shining out of shield too.

Consistent powershielding is a good weapon against any falco though.
 

JFox

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#10
Powershielding is easy, but following up a powershield effectively with peach doesnt seem do-able. She is so slow.

Whenever you powershield, you are stuck in your shield afterwards. So I can either jump out, or roll. WD isn't worth anything since hers so so small that it just isn't worth the time spent doin it. Jump, I can jump into float. But unless im real close when i get the powershield off, im not getting to him in time to be effective.

what vidjo suggested was to once in a while float, drop down toad, and let a laser hit the toad and have a spore hit him. That sounds pretty sick, but its only gonna be good if i use it sparingly.
 

Samochan

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#11
Powershielding is easy, but following up a powershield effectively with peach doesnt seem do-able. She is so slow.

Whenever you powershield, you are stuck in your shield afterwards. So I can either jump out, or roll. WD isn't worth anything since hers so so small that it just isn't worth the time spent doin it. Jump, I can jump into float. But unless im real close when i get the powershield off, im not getting to him in time to be effective.

what vidjo suggested was to once in a while float, drop down toad, and let a laser hit the toad and have a spore hit him. That sounds pretty sick, but its only gonna be good if i use it sparingly.
Powershield doesn't have any lag, so you're basically free to do whatever you wish to do. So one is certainly not stuck on it.

And btw, peach's wavedash, while short, is not useless when done near perfectly. Armada if anything proves that wd is useful even if short. It depends more how fast the wavedash comes out and her's as fast as falco's. Slow wd is more useless than short. Besides, it enables one to space and stay grounded and ready to cc and stuff, unlike float and roll. Not to mention grounded moves have more priority over aerial moves if they clash (or something like that). Wavedash forward to dash attack has quite a good reach you know. But turnips have even more so. But you have to remember that even marth can't just powershield falco's laser, wd up to him and do whatever he wishes to the falco. You're asking too much if you think peach is capable of punishing someone outside of marths' range. :p

And the toad is somewhat fun, but certainly not the best option, since you cannot punish the falco before they can stand up again. So it would effectively stop falco from approaching once as a suprise tactic, but then you would not gain anything from that and in even worse case scenario, falco would tech the toad and punish you from it. I occasionally use it from ground to stop falco from approaching with stuff and then try to follow up, but wakeup attack in front comes out faster than peach out of lag anyway. Drop down toad is not really useful, since the toad slows your descend and you need to pull it out near ground level so it hits anything.

Do not underestimate the effectiveness of correct spacing and timing in every situation. Peach is not so slow you make her out to be. And if you're not close enough, then you actively need to play a game where you won't let falco run away, thus he'll lose in the run-away game he tries to play. There is always a huge risk in a campy game since the opposing player can always intercept them in someplace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0af2h6KbQq8 2:08-2:10 WD is not useless ^^
 

JFox

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#12
You need to read my statements in context. I know that the WD out of shield has uses, however, I was talkin about doing it out of a powershield as a way of following up. If u powershield, u always put up ur shield afterwards, so u need to do something to get out of the shield. Wavedash isn't fast enough to followup a powershield.

And no one really techs a toad, so if u get falco to fall onto the ground, it leaves him at a disadvantage and allows u to tech chase.
 

t3h stock slayer

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#13
you dont need to hold up your sheild after your power shield... just press r and let go o.O u dont need to hold anything lol.

things you can do after power shielding =
dash? O.o
wd
jump
float
etc

i dont know why u would hold your sheild after powersheilding O.o
 

JFox

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#14
When u powershield, u inevitably will put up ur shield afterwards unless u are a level 9 comp. So what will happen is u will powershield, then a shield will come up directly after. Then u will let go of the shield, and it will take extra time before u can start moving out of ur shield.

Go try it. lol
 
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#15
You can drop it really fast, Frame 1 after the hit I think? Fast enough to power shield Falco's d-air and d-smash him at least. If you're holding up a shield, it means you're timing it wrong. There are players who can do this stuff.
 

Zankoku

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#19
If you're quick enough with letting go of the trigger after a powershield, there shouldn't be a single frame where you're actually shielding. I imagine that means you can dash immediately afterward.
 

Magus420

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#20
The only instant shield drop related property of powershielding is when you PS a melee attack you can cancel the shield directly into an attack without needing to drop it first. Aside from that your options out of shield work the same, so if you just release shield it works the way it normally would.

Guard on takes 8 frames. Peach's guard off takes 14. If you PS a projectile and just release shield you will lag for either 20 or 21 frames before you can dash directly out of it depending on whether you PSed on frame 1 or 2 (melee PS window is 4 frames and the projectile window is 2).

You would be able to complete a WD and then also start a dash in the time it takes to release shield.

Powershield Projectile:
1) 2 frame window
2) No shield damage
3) No shield hitlag
4) No shield pushback
5) No shield stun
6) Reflects the projectile

Powershield Attack:
1) 4 frame window
2) No shield damage
3) Same shield hitlag
4) More shield pushback than full shield
5) Same shield stun as full shield
6) Allows you to cancel the shield dropping animation with an A or B attack
 

Magus420

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#22
The full shield area that you see on the screen when the shield comes out isn't actually the part that powershields. There's a slightly smaller inner area that does the powershielding. If the projectile makes contact with that area on the 1st or 2nd frame of putting the shield up while also full shielding it gets PSed.

Since it's a bit smaller, it's possible to time the powershield correctly but have it first connect on just the very edge of your shield yet not be within the powershield area so it ends up getting shielded normally.

In the case of Falco's lasers, which is several hitboxes in a line, I believe if any of the hitboxes clip the shield without touching the PS area the whole thing gets shielded normally even if one of the other hitboxes would be PSed (like if you ducked the laser and then shielded as it passed over you).
 
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#23
Since it's a bit smaller, it's possible to time the powershield correctly but have it first connect on just the very edge of your shield yet not be within the powershield area so it ends up getting shielded normally.
If I understood this correctly, it IS indeed impossible to powershield projectiles with Bowser unless his shield is full?
 

Magus420

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#24
Bowser's area is more centered towards his back while his head reaches way outside of the area in the front. It's all about positioning. While it's pretty much impossible while standing still from the front at head level unless it's moving extremely fast and can skip past his head and into the area over the course of 1 frame, he can PS much easier (though still hard compared to other characters) from the back or low to the ground in the front.
 

JFox

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#26
All I want confirmed is this:

Is it, or is it not, impossible to powershield a laser and then dash forward without having the lag of dropping the shield? I'm pretty sure that if I understood you correctly, its impossible. Right?
 

Magus420

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#27
Is it, or is it not, impossible to powershield a laser and then dash forward without having the lag of dropping the shield? I'm pretty sure that if I understood you correctly, its impossible. Right?
The only instant shield drop related property of powershielding is when you PS a melee attack you can cancel the shield directly into an attack without needing to drop it first. Aside from that your options out of shield work the same, so if you just release shield it works the way it normally would.

Guard on takes 8 frames. Peach's guard off takes 14. If you PS a projectile and just release shield you will lag for either 20 or 21 frames before you can dash directly out of it depending on whether you PSed on frame 1 or 2 (melee PS window is 4 frames and the projectile window is 2).

You would be able to complete a WD and then also start a dash in the time it takes to release shield.
Almost my entire post was about how you have normal shield drop lag if you release shield after powershielding and can't dash immediately out of the powershield, lol. But yeah you got it. If you want to move after powershielding a laser you'll want to either jump/WD or roll immediately afterwards (there's no hitlag or stun with projectiles so it can be done as early as the very next frame).
 

JFox

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#28
I just wanted u to agree with me in plain english so that people couldn't possibly misunderstand what u had said. Basically I wanted them to know I was right and they were wrong LOL
 

araknophobik

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#33
back to the original topic...
counter pick with brinstar =]
lava forces them to approach so they can't camp
worked for me at a tourny against a campy falco

as for neutrals, let him spam because eventually after so much damage he'll approach
just anticipate and abuse
i know easier said than done
and usually they approach with dairs
i like to wavedash back out of sheild to dsmash
dtilts **** too =]
 

DoH

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#34
powershield dair to downsmash

you just have to stay inside of falco. he must keep you at bay in order to win. if you're all up in his business he won't know what to do.
 

DoH

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#38

JFox

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#39
Cool man. I'll def try to work on that. Thanks

Edit: can you cancel the shield from coming up with th C-stick, or do you HAVE to use the A button? Cuz I cant seem to powershield dsmash without the shield poppin up, and ive been tryin with the cstick
 

DoH

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#40
I just use R and the c stick

Try to listen for audio cues. It's all about sound. I think you're just hanging onto your shield button too long.

Also, if you don't have anyone to practice against, take a level 9 falco to fd, and just try to powershield everything into downsmash. Don't try and fight him except with downsmashes. It'll help your muscles start to remember. If you're having trouble trying to get him to attack you, float over and land behind him...he'll try an aerial, usually dair or bair.
 
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