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How Fast Is Melee? Vid (version 2.0 extra sexy)
- Thread starter Acryte
- Start date
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
trollin much?
You're right, throw away combo, pretty stupid, it wasnt flashy, difficult, or effective in any way. saw similar in silent wolfs all systems go but you know what that was a stupid combo vid full of generic garbage. revolution too, lovage im sorry bro but noskill.
Hate to tell you this but most other "types" of videos have been made, if you want to use them to "convince" someone then good for you, read the 1st post I could care less if they swapped over to smash. Not my intention, go away. If that was Mango's fox on jeff or somethin you would be talking about how awesome the exact same combo was, troll on dude.
true. doing something that requires physical skill and timing is no different or any more impressive than something that requires neither. Just as many people actively choose to watch me livestreaming filing my taxes vs watching football, basketball, the olympics or whatever other physical activity that has no REAL use to the world other than entertainment with the challenge of being physically difficult to perform. You called it.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
this vid all makes us look stupid. i honestly wish it wasn't made, stuff like this is why other communities hate us.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You probably have no idea what you are talking about, good brawl players exist for a damn reason and it's the deep understanding of the game. There are a lot of subtle things that good player use in order to win. I guess scrubs will remain scrubs and keep talking ****.
What makes Melee great isn't just the tech skill. The skill cap on pretty much every area of play that makes up a fighter is extremely high in Melee, and on top of that, we have completely foreign areas such as the off-stage game and general stage manipulation (platforms).
Just for the sake of example, I'll go through it briefly...
General technical skill and movement:
The skill cap for this is extremely high due to the movement system giving us so much more control than what is provided in other games.
Most fighting games are very restrictive on movement, often forcing the player to be facing the opponent, and limiting movement to walking forwards and backwards, maybe with a set-distance dash or roll by doubletapping forward or back or some other button input.
In smash, we have control over our character ranging from 0 movement to the max movement speed with our chosen character. During walk, we are able to do anything we want. We also have a dash, but one that is interruptable with shield, can be jumped out of, can be cancelled into a dash in the opposite direction (dash dance), can be attacked out of with a wide variety of moves, and, with proper manipulation, can enable moonwalking. The dashing game is so low on frame consumption, it enables a huge range of motion in a very short period of time, while maintaining nearly the full range of character options.
So to do a comparison:
General Fighting Games (GFG) vs SSBM
Basic Movement:
Walk
GFG: Set speed back and forth, usually limited to facing the opponent.
SSBM: Complete control over speed, facing the direction you are moving.
Dash
GFG: Usually used through doubletapping forward or a button combination. Usually laggy. Interruptable dashes are game dependent. Is more similar to our wavedash than our dash.
SSBM: Done by pushing the control stick all the way forward. Can be interrupted by shield, jump, dashing the other direction, or with the set dash attack. Can be manipulated through movement momentum to enable moonwalking. Note: You should read about jump.
Air-dash
GFG: Game dependent, but more have it than don't have it.
SSBM: No air-dashing. This reduces our overall speed in the air. We play a heavier ground movement game because of it. BUT, thanks to the existance of platforms, we can manipulate our airdodge to create a psuedo-air dash, covering space at a higher elevation horizontally.
Run
GFG: Limited use, limited options out of run, if it even exists in the game being compared.
SSBM: Runs begin out of dash. Removes the option to interrupt the movement with a dash in the other direction and ability to moonwalk, but adds the option to interrupt with crouch.
Crouch
GFG: Used to do low attacks, avoid grabs, implement mixups, etc.
SSBM: Used to do low attacks, avoid grabs (character dependent). Main difference is crouch cancelling. This allows us to tank a move, taking the full damage, but take much less stun for it. CCing can be done during attacks, opening up a huge mixup game agaist aerial dependent opponents.
Block
GFG: High or low. Usually can't be interrupted/cancelled. Dependent on fighter, it can be broken by excessive punishment? Takes chip damage from specials. Dependent on fighter, well timed blocks are rewarded. Dependent on fighter, push-blocking can be done by use of button combo.
SSBM: Variable shield position and size based on trigger depression and direction held. Can be interrupted by jump, sidestep, roll, grab. Shielding within a few frames prior to being hit will power shield, giving a no-stun block and counterattack opportunity or reflecting a projectile. Shields will slowly deteriorate, as shown by the size decreasing over time. Areas not covered by the shield can be poked. No chip damage is taken.
Jump
GFG: Jump in, jump up, jump back. Can do a move during. Some games have double jumps. Some games have airdashes.
SSBM: Can be immediately interrupted before leaving the ground with grab, up smash, certain B moves, and airdodge (for use in wavedashing).
I'm going to stop on the general movement thing for now. It basically just means that we have a far greater number of options during our movement than other fighters. Which should be obvious to most players.
Punishment Game:
Standard Attacks
GFG: Pretty sure nearly every fighting game has more overall moves than smash. Punches (light medium heavy), kicks (light medium heavy). Soul calibur has horizontal, vertical, and kick. But how many are actually used? The ones with the largest range for poking, combo starters/launchers, fast moves for interrupting, and projectiles. Overheads for punishing crouchblock. Everything else is combo related or unused.
SSBM: 9 standard ground attacks. 5 standard air attacks.
Specials
GFG: Lots of these. Require input combos and/or charging.
SSBM: 4 specials.
Combos
GFG: Once you land a decent starter/launcher, you combo. Lots of variability in combos, but only a few are really all that useful so in realistic tournament play, the combos you see are pretty limited. Combos are just a sequence of button presses in most cases, so, assuming you set up properly and know the timing, you could just close your eyes and do it. Some games have infinites, some games reduce the damage done the longer the combo goes on.
SSBM: Once you land a decent starter/launcher, you have to follow the opponent's DI throughout the entire string. The opponent has control over the direction sent during every hit of the combo, so you have to expect and react properly. Mid-combo mixups exist to trick DI or force the opponent to miss techs due to the frame window preventing button spam to once every 40 frames, while the tech window is only 20 frames. Subsequent tech inputs refresh the window, so its not 50/50 with spam. On top of DI, there is SDI, which occurs during hitlag, allowing the opponent to shift his characters position before being sent in the knockback direction. The hardest hitting possible combo is 25% of a player's life (Total Stock divided equally).
There are a lot more things to go into, but I've run out of steam for the moment. The point is, as players, we have this extraordinary amount of freedom that just doesn't exist in other fighters. That freedom is present throughout nearly the entire game. We don't have a huge number of moves to do and we have a limited number of guaranteed combos. Hell, the only character with a technique in competitive play that can completely remove an opponent's control is Ice Climbers. It can happen situationally with other characters, but that isn't even worth mentioning. What makes the game so exciting is that the mechanisms in place make everything have a huge sense of reward. When you combo in other games, the thrill you get is in landing that starter/launcher. Everything past that is just muscle memory. When you escape a combo in other games, you are happy because the opponent dropped it, not because you consciously manipulated it. There is a constant interaction in every situation, and the sheer number of options to consider is just unheard of for any other fighter.
This post is getting too long, so I'm starting to just ramble but...
tl:dr (serious post) - Wobbles is a talentless hobo and all IC players can go burn. (jk, ilu lolol <3)
tl:dr (for real) - Everything is harder in SSBM. And we love it.
Someone find me a player in another fighter with 300 average APM.
Just for the sake of example, I'll go through it briefly...
General technical skill and movement:
The skill cap for this is extremely high due to the movement system giving us so much more control than what is provided in other games.
Most fighting games are very restrictive on movement, often forcing the player to be facing the opponent, and limiting movement to walking forwards and backwards, maybe with a set-distance dash or roll by doubletapping forward or back or some other button input.
In smash, we have control over our character ranging from 0 movement to the max movement speed with our chosen character. During walk, we are able to do anything we want. We also have a dash, but one that is interruptable with shield, can be jumped out of, can be cancelled into a dash in the opposite direction (dash dance), can be attacked out of with a wide variety of moves, and, with proper manipulation, can enable moonwalking. The dashing game is so low on frame consumption, it enables a huge range of motion in a very short period of time, while maintaining nearly the full range of character options.
So to do a comparison:
General Fighting Games (GFG) vs SSBM
Basic Movement:
Walk
GFG: Set speed back and forth, usually limited to facing the opponent.
SSBM: Complete control over speed, facing the direction you are moving.
Dash
GFG: Usually used through doubletapping forward or a button combination. Usually laggy. Interruptable dashes are game dependent. Is more similar to our wavedash than our dash.
SSBM: Done by pushing the control stick all the way forward. Can be interrupted by shield, jump, dashing the other direction, or with the set dash attack. Can be manipulated through movement momentum to enable moonwalking. Note: You should read about jump.
Air-dash
GFG: Game dependent, but more have it than don't have it.
SSBM: No air-dashing. This reduces our overall speed in the air. We play a heavier ground movement game because of it. BUT, thanks to the existance of platforms, we can manipulate our airdodge to create a psuedo-air dash, covering space at a higher elevation horizontally.
Run
GFG: Limited use, limited options out of run, if it even exists in the game being compared.
SSBM: Runs begin out of dash. Removes the option to interrupt the movement with a dash in the other direction and ability to moonwalk, but adds the option to interrupt with crouch.
Crouch
GFG: Used to do low attacks, avoid grabs, implement mixups, etc.
SSBM: Used to do low attacks, avoid grabs (character dependent). Main difference is crouch cancelling. This allows us to tank a move, taking the full damage, but take much less stun for it. CCing can be done during attacks, opening up a huge mixup game agaist aerial dependent opponents.
Block
GFG: High or low. Usually can't be interrupted/cancelled. Dependent on fighter, it can be broken by excessive punishment? Takes chip damage from specials. Dependent on fighter, well timed blocks are rewarded. Dependent on fighter, push-blocking can be done by use of button combo.
SSBM: Variable shield position and size based on trigger depression and direction held. Can be interrupted by jump, sidestep, roll, grab. Shielding within a few frames prior to being hit will power shield, giving a no-stun block and counterattack opportunity or reflecting a projectile. Shields will slowly deteriorate, as shown by the size decreasing over time. Areas not covered by the shield can be poked. No chip damage is taken.
Jump
GFG: Jump in, jump up, jump back. Can do a move during. Some games have double jumps. Some games have airdashes.
SSBM: Can be immediately interrupted before leaving the ground with grab, up smash, certain B moves, and airdodge (for use in wavedashing).
I'm going to stop on the general movement thing for now. It basically just means that we have a far greater number of options during our movement than other fighters. Which should be obvious to most players.
Punishment Game:
Standard Attacks
GFG: Pretty sure nearly every fighting game has more overall moves than smash. Punches (light medium heavy), kicks (light medium heavy). Soul calibur has horizontal, vertical, and kick. But how many are actually used? The ones with the largest range for poking, combo starters/launchers, fast moves for interrupting, and projectiles. Overheads for punishing crouchblock. Everything else is combo related or unused.
SSBM: 9 standard ground attacks. 5 standard air attacks.
Specials
GFG: Lots of these. Require input combos and/or charging.
SSBM: 4 specials.
Combos
GFG: Once you land a decent starter/launcher, you combo. Lots of variability in combos, but only a few are really all that useful so in realistic tournament play, the combos you see are pretty limited. Combos are just a sequence of button presses in most cases, so, assuming you set up properly and know the timing, you could just close your eyes and do it. Some games have infinites, some games reduce the damage done the longer the combo goes on.
SSBM: Once you land a decent starter/launcher, you have to follow the opponent's DI throughout the entire string. The opponent has control over the direction sent during every hit of the combo, so you have to expect and react properly. Mid-combo mixups exist to trick DI or force the opponent to miss techs due to the frame window preventing button spam to once every 40 frames, while the tech window is only 20 frames. Subsequent tech inputs refresh the window, so its not 50/50 with spam. On top of DI, there is SDI, which occurs during hitlag, allowing the opponent to shift his characters position before being sent in the knockback direction. The hardest hitting possible combo is 25% of a player's life (Total Stock divided equally).
There are a lot more things to go into, but I've run out of steam for the moment. The point is, as players, we have this extraordinary amount of freedom that just doesn't exist in other fighters. That freedom is present throughout nearly the entire game. We don't have a huge number of moves to do and we have a limited number of guaranteed combos. Hell, the only character with a technique in competitive play that can completely remove an opponent's control is Ice Climbers. It can happen situationally with other characters, but that isn't even worth mentioning. What makes the game so exciting is that the mechanisms in place make everything have a huge sense of reward. When you combo in other games, the thrill you get is in landing that starter/launcher. Everything past that is just muscle memory. When you escape a combo in other games, you are happy because the opponent dropped it, not because you consciously manipulated it. There is a constant interaction in every situation, and the sheer number of options to consider is just unheard of for any other fighter.
This post is getting too long, so I'm starting to just ramble but...
tl:dr (serious post) - Wobbles is a talentless hobo and all IC players can go burn. (jk, ilu lolol <3)
tl:dr (for real) - Everything is harder in SSBM. And we love it.
Someone find me a player in another fighter with 300 average APM.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I wonder what a pro MvC2 player would average on APM. i pick marvel cause it looks like the next fastest fighter from a visual standpoint but idk.
I like cactuar's summary.
I like cactuar's summary.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's awesome how you you were able to explain all those differences in freedom of movement while just focusing on stage and platform gameplay. I've always felt ledge game has been one of the most unique systems that differentiates Melee from other fighters. I mean, when you get down to it, there are probably an average of 2-3 recoveries per stock (varies on matchups), which makes it a huge part of the game and a lot of strategies have been developed solely around recovering and ledge guarding correctly. The style you use to play when ledge guarding or recovering is VASTLY different from how you play in neutral position on the stage. In other fighters, you typically play the same style because you do not have the element of ledge fighting. Usually the only variables that change how you play (other than how your opponent adapts, obviously) is how much health both people have and how much time is left on the clock.
Yeah, the offstage game is a huge other aspect of the game. I just wanted to demonstrate things that can be compared easily between fighting games.
The 25% of your life idea has huge variability based in how you prevent death. All recovery and such extends the effectiveness of that stock, providing a multiplier that can be applied against that 25%. Basically, 100% is only set number when you are looking at one player. Looking at both players, 100% vs 100% is just a base. You get to apply that survival multiplier to 25% and, depending on how good you are at holding onto stock despite being at ridiculous percents, you can shift that number to higher than 100%.
(Just how I look at it.)
Not really super similar, but some fighting games have a system in place allowing you to mash your buttons to reduce the amount of damage taken. I wish it was that easy to improve our survivability in smash lol.
The 25% of your life idea has huge variability based in how you prevent death. All recovery and such extends the effectiveness of that stock, providing a multiplier that can be applied against that 25%. Basically, 100% is only set number when you are looking at one player. Looking at both players, 100% vs 100% is just a base. You get to apply that survival multiplier to 25% and, depending on how good you are at holding onto stock despite being at ridiculous percents, you can shift that number to higher than 100%.
(Just how I look at it.)
Not really super similar, but some fighting games have a system in place allowing you to mash your buttons to reduce the amount of damage taken. I wish it was that easy to improve our survivability in smash lol.
Holy **** rare footage of Kage going in LOL
And Mow going hard.
And I had to read Cactuar's long *** post because, well Cactuar posted it. I'm glad you took the time to properly explain all that to some of the people here.
D
Deleted member
Guest
It was very stupid, flashy and difficult, but it was not effective past the parameters of that video in the "I guess that works" kind of way, but our better players wouldn't ever do something so pointlessly difficult to allow for inconsistency.
If you want to meat-ride both SW and lovage in a poor straw-man argument, make sure they share similar views that you do prior to citing their demonstration videos as suggested techniques to copy for a tournament. Anyone who wants to actually win as fox right now should be referring to Jman.
Trolling is a statement put forth to elicit a reaction from another person. I don't care how you feel about it, I simply stated my opinion. If you didn't want opinions, you shouldn't have made a thread for it. Welcome to the internet.
Whether or not you wanted them to swap games, or whatever your initial intent was, the video was still clearly directed targeted to an audience we can safely say is outside of this community.
I don't particularly like mango, nor did I make any reference supporting about "how I'd be talking" about anything. If you're going to put words in my mouth, at least make it sound like something I would agree to.
Yet another poor comparison used as an argument. Why can't you just state your ideas in context to the actual topic? Whatever. If you want to go watch dexterity, or if for some reason you want others to watch dexterity like you're suggesting, make it something your audience would be somewhat familiar with. For example, juggling. If we're going to be horribly condescending and assume that the fighting game community is too stupid to appreciate basic coordination, we should show them a video that they can understand, so we should find something that doesn't require much prerequisite knowledge like juggling or dancing. SRK will likely those videos more than they'll enjoy watching smash.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I was recently talking to a local competitive MvC/SF player, and this came up in conversation. I explained APM and he laughed and told me "that's stupid, why should anyone care about that?"
I think that reflects the general consensus on APM.
Ahahaha. Ya, APM doesn't really matter. That was just thrown in at the end of my post for no real reason. It kinda detracts from the actual point I made, which is the huge amount of options that exist at any point in time...
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
this vid makes smashers look ********
cactuar's post was way more convincing that the game is competitively viable
cactuar's post was way more convincing that the game is competitively viable
BBQ°
Smash Champion
I don't think you can make a video showing Melee's depth which will be short enough to keep the interest of average people.
The tech skill stuff is flashy, but you also make it seem like it's REALLY hard to pull off (and it is, lol), and that's just ugly. This generation of kids dislike things that take effort.
The tech skill stuff is flashy, but you also make it seem like it's REALLY hard to pull off (and it is, lol), and that's just ugly. This generation of kids dislike things that take effort.
@Tai
Ya well, you know. Looking at the game's mechanics relevant to fighting games rather than pointing out how many buttons we have to push will do that.
Lolololol
But, just to get this out there... I appreciate that the vid is trying to promote melee. You just have to be careful about how you do that.
Ya well, you know. Looking at the game's mechanics relevant to fighting games rather than pointing out how many buttons we have to push will do that.
Lolololol
But, just to get this out there... I appreciate that the vid is trying to promote melee. You just have to be careful about how you do that.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Come to me, Cactuar!
Psshhh. I'm the one standing still with a % lead. You come to me.
(*Charges Fsmash in the meantime*)
(*Charges Fsmash in the meantime*)
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
Yeah, but these things are also incredibly hard to articulate. That's why most people translate their game's skill aspect into technical skill. It is visible and definite. You can't force people to understand the game's character control, stage control, DI, edge game, physics, momentum, mindgames, etc. But tech skill can't be denied. In the end, something like this video will do much more help in the long run than trying to describe what truly makes melee a great game (although neither does much good anyway.)
Good video.
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
What are you talking about.
1) By the end of that combo he was up 4 stocks to 1 (his only risk is ****in up the tech and droppin a stock after rackin up a ton of damage on falcon, OR not gettin the kill while still on a fat lead)
2) Silent Wolfs all systems go is of actual match footage not demo tech
3) Lovage can do crazy tech **** but usually unless its applying crazy pressure he isnt out going for edgecancels and ****.... BUUUT
4) ITS A GOD DAMN FRIENDLY.
5) You can be as risky as you want in a friendly what is there to lose? Last time I checked you can be extra risky in friendlies because its a chance to practice and learn without consequence
6) Last I checked I didnt say anything about Lovage and sw's opinion on using tech only that SW had a similar combo in a non tech vid that must have been equally just a "throw away combo" actually though, it was impressive.
7) How do you know it was an unnecessary risk, maybe he has a little more faith in his ability to execute the combo than you. If he knew he had that combo locked in because he's done it countless times then its more-so viewed as risky because you're doubting his skills by comparing them to someone else 's. You probably haven't watched many of his vids anyways. Most likely the whole overly risky maneuver statement is an uneducated guess.
Looks like trolling, sounds like trolling, is worded like trolling. Oh, sorry, just you being you I guess then.
Not the point, but you already knew that. Okay then, take any player you think is respectable and then watch him get off on a super flashy combo. I'm just saying, just because you wanna hate on the vid, and the player (whether or not that is even justified, as if you played Dark and 4 stocked him a bunch recently), doesn't mean you should hate on the combo because guess what, as was already stated, for the most part, falcon wasn't gettin out of that combo alive... so WHOEVER you want to be that fox against whoever you want as falcon, doesn't really detract from that combo. It wasn't a "throw-away" you were just being a hater in general, which some refer to as trolling.
Yet another poor comparison used as an argument (in its entirety).
No, people enjoy watching physically demanding things, and in the case of the apparent popularity of sports, they enjoy watching:
A) Competetion between 2 or more players of a sport
B) Inherent Strategy of the sport
C) The physical skill and dexterity required of a great player
These are all major factors in the overall popularity of team sports especially. Hmmm... strong competition, lots of strategy, requisite skill (AND ... players of great performance are often revered by fans for their abilities).
YOU however have thrown up a great strawman, good stuff. Juggling? Juggling requires the dexterity and physical skill however it lacks the strategy and competition. You of course knew that but would rather create a poor strawman argument to knock down instead.
Also I wasn't just showing basic coordination, that was not a basic combo. Maybe if it was a basic ken combo or three piece back airs from jiggs or a champ combo from fox ... but that was not the case, it was SUPPOSED to be an impressive combo, I'm sorry you were unimpressed, as I said we can't make everyone happy.
========================================
Aside from that, awesome post Cactuar. That is more geared toward what other people make of this thread, I just had an idea for a video regardless, as far as converting people to smash its a solid series of comparisons to warrant legitimate discussion and would be worth making a thread about in my opinion. If it was in here it would probably get lost between the trolls and anti trolls.
L__
Smash Master
the ending seems kinda childish
maybe it's just me
maybe it's just me
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
that's fine, already expected when I made it that some people wouldn't care for it, or would be super serious mode about it. It's just a vid, some like it, some don't. Someone doesn't like it says **** in it. Nothing really surprising about peoples reactions, they are usually predictable overall
L__
Smash Master
well when you have a title called 'the go-to vid for smash haters'
I was just expecting something a little more
idk
not the way you phrased the ending
I was just expecting something a little more
idk
not the way you phrased the ending
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Tech-skill only became valued in the way it is now because of Brawl, and the way that our game differs since we find Brawl to be dull. There's actually a difference in what we call 'tech-skill' and what 'tech-skill' actually is. When most people think of tech-skill, I'm sure that images of Lovage, Silent Wolf, and shine tricksies come to mind. When I think of tech-skill, the players I think of are Mango and PP, or even PC and Azen. They don't miss anything. They have (almost) complete control over their character. Everything they do is second nature and is much more of a mental battle than a button pressing one.
I'm in agreement with most of the other people in this thread: this really isn't a good video to show people who no nothing about Melee, especially if you're trying to convince them to play. The video itself was okay, but it's definitely not made for what you call 'smash haters'. You really need to stop hating on those who are telling you this... I hope you read Cactuars post since it's probably one of the best you'll find on this subject.
EDIT: Umbreon wasn't trolling btw, he was just making a very valid point while not caring what you thought
I'm in agreement with most of the other people in this thread: this really isn't a good video to show people who no nothing about Melee, especially if you're trying to convince them to play. The video itself was okay, but it's definitely not made for what you call 'smash haters'. You really need to stop hating on those who are telling you this... I hope you read Cactuars post since it's probably one of the best you'll find on this subject.
EDIT: Umbreon wasn't trolling btw, he was just making a very valid point while not caring what you thought
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
People have been loving tech skill way before brawl.
The mental battle will always be more important than technical ability, but technical skill gives more options to the mental battles. The winner between two players with the same mental ability is the one with more technical ability because he has a greater variety of options he can use. At the end of the day, technical skill is the reason why the metagame keeps evolving and it plays a huge part in why Melee is good.
Here's a thought: For those who don't like this video, how's about throwing out suggestions for another video. One that encompasses more than just tech skill.
The mental battle will always be more important than technical ability, but technical skill gives more options to the mental battles. The winner between two players with the same mental ability is the one with more technical ability because he has a greater variety of options he can use. At the end of the day, technical skill is the reason why the metagame keeps evolving and it plays a huge part in why Melee is good.
Here's a thought: For those who don't like this video, how's about throwing out suggestions for another video. One that encompasses more than just tech skill.
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
like shiz say, all the top players are technical. They can do whatever the character requires at a moments notice but they aren't inclined to do certain moves that are less effective just because they look cool. I think that's an obvious point though that people put out there all the time as if no one really understands that (maybe people new to smash don't, I've been on smashboards since early 2005 and played since the day the game launched, spacing and tech is nothing new). Why do you think I like watching M2K, Mang0, PeePee, Armada, Axe, etc. Because they are smart and effective. That's obvious of top players, and its enjoyable to watch.
no, he was callin the player a thow-away, the combo a throw-away and and judging a clip from a friendly as if it wasn't legit because its risky for tournament.
<-- im not.
Cactuar's post is good though for a different purpose. It's more agreeable, I wasn't trying to be agreeable in as much I had an idea for making an entertaining video. entertainment is subjective. Too many people are hung up on the serious end of "elitists" and stuff, when the day is done, I play smash for fun.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
just rewatched the video and
loooooooool that 1:35 really is super elitist
and totally ruins the video XD
weird intro, show flashy melee clip, slow it down with inputs shown, now regular speed again with said inputs, end by mocking all other fighters
"I think this video will be good for people who don't like/get Melee."
yea
good job
loooooooool that 1:35 really is super elitist
and totally ruins the video XD
weird intro, show flashy melee clip, slow it down with inputs shown, now regular speed again with said inputs, end by mocking all other fighters
"I think this video will be good for people who don't like/get Melee."
yea
good job
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
You can't be elitist towards people who already think they're better than you.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
okay then
re-enforcing the negative stereotype of smash players thinking they're game is the best game ever and thinking other fighters aren't fast or technical and blah blah blah
I mean I think that Melee is the best game ever, but I also completely understand the traditional competitive fighter's mentality on Melee, even those who don't hate it. I mean, most people on SRK who hate Smash have no idea what it is, an one reason they hate smash players is because they have no idea what other fighting games are (which is true, most don't).
EDIT: but the statement "I bet your game isn't as fast or technical as mine" is so... childish. (Another thing SRK people don't like about Smash)
re-enforcing the negative stereotype of smash players thinking they're game is the best game ever and thinking other fighters aren't fast or technical and blah blah blah
I mean I think that Melee is the best game ever, but I also completely understand the traditional competitive fighter's mentality on Melee, even those who don't hate it. I mean, most people on SRK who hate Smash have no idea what it is, an one reason they hate smash players is because they have no idea what other fighting games are (which is true, most don't).
EDIT: but the statement "I bet your game isn't as fast or technical as mine" is so... childish. (Another thing SRK people don't like about Smash)
Lol guys relax. From a hype point of view, he is trying to draw attention. His motivation is in the right place. He is specifically targetting and being critical of other games lesser technical requirement. Give him critique on how to do it better, don't **** on him lol.
My post was just an approach to the actual comparison between games from a depth point of view, in response to people saying we get little respect from other fighting game communities because they don't realize the depth that our game has.
I am all about analysis, so if anyone wants to give me some aspect of another game to compare melee against, I'd be more than happy to do so.
My post was just an approach to the actual comparison between games from a depth point of view, in response to people saying we get little respect from other fighting game communities because they don't realize the depth that our game has.
I am all about analysis, so if anyone wants to give me some aspect of another game to compare melee against, I'd be more than happy to do so.
JOS.fm
Smash Journeyman
oh! if you were trying to flex muscle then it was pretty good 'cause of the combo. but it's only significant to melee players 'cause we know how difficult that is. other people would just say it's stupid.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
umbreon hasnt contributed anything worth while in years i dont imagine. and if he has it was probably to zeldas metagame............nah just kidding.
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
Lol, there is no such stereotype, because smash players have done no such thing.
Most people on SRK who hate Melee hate it because it's not a traditional fighter, and for that reason, they hate when Smash is called a "fighter" because it's not traditional, and for that reason they hate smash players because smash players want to eb included in the fighting game community because, well, this is a fighting game.
All the other ridiculous statement made to legitimize that argument that Melee is not a fighter stem from this and ignorance.
SRK people don't hate smash players because most smash players don't know other games, they hate smash players because smash players want their game to be included as a fighting game.
The idea that smash players don't know other games is an attempt to legitimize the argument that smash isn't a fighting game by implying that smash players don't know what a fighting game is.
Yes, it is childish, but not any more childish than most of the entire debate about whether or nor SSB should be respected as a fighting game. Some folks think that "stepping down to another person's level" is a bad thing, but at times, the only way to communicate with people is to speak to them on their level. Smash players have tried reasonable, logical discussion with other fighting game communities for years, and they're only met with arrogance and elitism. That's why I don't blame Acryte for this video. I'd much rather let the hate be mutual, than to have Melee begging for the respect it rightfully deserves while inferior games laugh in its face.
L__
Smash Master
from all the threads I can remember on SRK, a lot of it had to do with smashers being a childish community (but of course people hate on the fact that we ban stages and items and people hold beliefs that ssbm isn't a fighting game)
1:35 in the video on kind of demonstrates that imo regardless of his intentions
I'd rather there be as little hate as there can, in all honesty. Your personality towards the SSB games vs. Traditional 2D fighting games is somewhat depressing to me...
too much hate and arrogance flows through these gaming communities
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
Well I guess we've had different experiences. All I've ever seen is that other fighting game communities don't take smash seriously because of its reputation as a "kid's" game. And they get belligerent when smashers try to put smash (Melee) on an equal plane with their game.
I think the "childish community" idea you're getting is the stereotype that smashers are children because of the reputation that smash is a kid's game. They inaccurately imply that smash has a childish commuinity because they inaccurately think that smashers are children. Makes a lot more sense to me.
I'd LOVE to have little hate, but the fact of the matter is that other fighting game communities will hate smash and smashers regardless of whether or not we hate them. There's no way smashers could lessen the hate between the two, so if "as little hate as ther can" means "every one hates smash players and smash players just take it" then I want no part of that. Smash (Melee) is a great game and deserves respect. If the respect is mutual, there should be no hate, but the reality is that Melee is hated for no good reason. I'm not the person who's gonna take that sitting down. I love other fighting games, I've got friends who play competitive SF, BB, GG, and Tekke, but when it comes to the communities who reject smash, I've tried rational argument many times. It doesn't work. As it stands Melee is a petulant child that whines about not being able to play with the big kids. I'd much rahter that Melee be the legitimate, arrogant ******* who uses logical arguments towards an illogical crowd than that.I'd rather there be as little hate as there can, in all honesty. Your personality towards the SSB games vs. Traditional 2D fighting games is somewhat depressing to me...
too much hate and arrogance flows through these gaming communities
L__
Smash Master
yeah I can't really say anything against this
Why do we have to be arrogant *******es? I don't see what's wrong with just putting forth logical arguments and leaving it at that.
I'm also not entirely sure about the whole history of Shoryuken vs. Smash, but the way I see it; we receive a lot of hate when we demand acknowledgement or opening old wounds by bringing up issues that do not require to be talked about. If your belief is that Melee is a great fighting game, so be it. I've been exploring other communities such as Street Fighter, Tekken, BlazBlue, etc. and I've never felt the need to bring up the idea, "I believe that Melee is superior for x and y." Sometimes, the topic of Melee comes up and we discuss it a little bit. There are times where I can generate some interest. The way that some Smashers are trying to get Melee recognized by others (SRK for example) aren't the best, at least in my opinion.
idk man
smashers trying to bring up logical topics on forums isn't the greatest idea
forums are filled with stupid people lol
JPOBS
Smash Hero
mutual respect being people/groups isn't gained by both groups being equally stupid and arrogant.
what is this guy going on about. "i want melee to be respected, so i'l be a douche about it"
what is this guy going on about. "i want melee to be respected, so i'l be a douche about it"
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
I'm not saying we have to be. But making logical arguments doesn't work. So if being logical doesn't work, then I, personally, will be a douche instead of just accepting it.
Why do we have to be arrogant *******es? I don't see what's wrong with just putting forth logical arguments and leaving it at that.
But either we demand acknowledgement, or we don't get taken seriously. I'm not going to accept that people ignorantly believe that our game is a joke or isn't as good as theirs. It's not about going around and proving that smash is better than other games. I've never done that, and I don't think that others do either. It's about being able to discuss Smash with people who play other fighting games without them laughing at it. You know, like we do when it comes to their games. The only time I even get into an argument is when Smash gets disrespected, but otherwise I just assume that the people I'm talking to aren't *******s.
No dude, you missed my point entirely. I said, "I want Melee to be respected, but being fair and logical isn't working so I don't care about it anymore and I'm going to be a douche about it."
D
Deleted member
Guest
haha the worst part is I saw that he quoted me above and there was a lot of text so I skipped it, but I caught your post immediately. hilarious.