How Far Is Too Far?

[Veysey]

When playing a competitive match, most of us would agree that pulling out your opponents controller/spitting in their face/kicking them in the shins is taking things too far and those tactics can, in-fact, be called cheating. So I'm here to ask, where do you draw the line between tactical maneuvers and plain out being cheap/cheating.

I personally say that anything you can do in-game without actually breaking the game/making impossible for the opponent(s) to win is fine - but yesterday I got into a debate with my opponent and also wondering how you all feel on this matter

Here is the situation:

I play this person quite a bit and know a lot about her play style etc. Last night she was turning up the heat and putting on her game shirt - so I decided to try something a little... unorthodox in my technique. I waited until she got me up to about 160% and SD'd. She hates it when I accidentally SD because she loves to see the kills she earned at the end of a match. I used this to my advantage. The outcome was perfect - for the rest of the night, she was so angry - so upset - that she couldn't even play at half her skill level. I had completely dominated her.

Afterwards, we got into a debate with her saying that the tactic is completely uncalled for and shouldn't have been used. We debated back and forth - me trying to defend my points that I had done nothing game breaking and had only used the game to "attack you mentally" as I put it. And she tried to argue that I was using the game as a means to attack her and not her character and that just wasn't fair. (I'm sure you all can likely imagine the back-and-forth of it all)

So along with my previous question - how do you all feel about this situation? Acceptable or not?

 

[Sariku]

I aprove of this question. Does that make sense? It doesn't need too.

As long as you don't physically touch her (Lulz) while playing the match, nor unplug or touch her (Lulz) controller, you just have to say "No Johns."

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Nothings to far.

I'll kill a man to win, or m2k.

 

[Eaode]

Mindgames, son.

 

[nice1]

i just play for fun unless i'm playing one of my friends then we talk smack to each other while we play lol

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

I'm wondering, why would you SD? If you would pull something off, you could take out another stock with your relatively high damage.

Unless you're referring to a Timed Match. o_o

 

[ph00tbag]

Dude, just tell her, "Mindgames, girl, no johns." You've done nothing wrong. Props, too, on such a clever way of winning a match.

 

[balladechina212]

I'm not ballsy enough to do something like that to a girl. But I think it's legit.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I don't see why she's so upset, you killing yourself actually makes it EASIER for her as she doesn't have to work to get the kill any more and doesn't have to worry about you increasing your lead anymore.

 

[PNaleek]

Mindgames, son.

I agree... to an extent...

 

[Puffer]

When playing a competitive match, most of us would agree that pulling out your opponents controller/spitting in their face/kicking them in the shins is taking things too far and those tactics can, in-fact, be called cheating. So I'm here to ask, where do you draw the line between tactical maneuvers and plain out being cheap/cheating.

I personally say that anything you can do in-game without actually breaking the game/making impossible for the opponent(s) to win is fine - but yesterday I got into a debate with my opponent and also wondering how you all feel on this matter

Here is the situation:

I play this person quite a bit and know a lot about her play style etc. Last night she was turning up the heat and putting on her game shirt - so I decided to try something a little... unorthodox in my technique. I waited until she got me up to about 160% and SD'd. She hates it when I accidentally SD because she loves to see the kills she earned at the end of a match. I used this to my advantage. The outcome was perfect - for the rest of the night, she was so angry - so upset - that she couldn't even play at half her skill level. I had completely dominated her.

Afterwards, we got into a debate with her saying that the tactic is completely uncalled for and shouldn't have been used. We debated back and forth - me trying to defend my points that I had done nothing game breaking and had only used the game to "attack you mentally" as I put it. And she tried to argue that I was using the game as a means to attack her and not her character and that just wasn't fair. (I'm sure you all can likely imagine the back-and-forth of it all)

So along with my previous question - how do you all feel about this situation? Acceptable or not?

I've had people self-destruct while playing me in a traditional 4-stock, 8-minute time limit match. They self-destructed VOLUNTARILY, and as soon as I saw that they did that, I immediately ended the match and said something like "Dude, don't do that - it's not a fair match anymore." Basically, I didn't want my opponent to be crippling himself because that would give ME an unfair advantage and therefore make the game invalid. It depends on how you look at it...I looked at it as a breach in the "fairness" of the game, and, being a pretty competitive person, I like things to be as fair as possible. If my opponent voluntarily makes it easier for me to win, I don't like that - I want to be challenged and I don't want my opponent to "help" me to win.. That's not to say that you still can't end up winning if you self-destruct (you did, right?), but in my case, I'd feel bad because I'd technically have an unfair advantage. That's why I ended the game - the girl you're playing with seems to have a different reason for disliking it, and, because I myself dislike it when people do that, I'd say you have to respect that.

Of course, in tournament play, if someone self-destructs, you can't re-set the game or get mad - rather, you'd only count yourself lucky and take advantage of the fact that your opponent is now one stock down from you without you having done anything. However, when playing non-tournament matches, I would still end the match if my opponent self-destructed because again, it's giving ME an unfair advantage (in my opinion) and I'd rather not play with such an advantage. In tournaments, anything that happens WITHIN THE GAME is considered "fair" (excepting banned things like stalls and crashes), and thus you have to treat it as such, even if it's really not all that fair.

 

[Levitas]

So, you were playing FRIENDLIES and you were so into the idea of winning that you were willing to make your friend that mad? If there were stakes it'd be different, but winning isn't what playing friendlies is about. Playing friendlies is about either practicing to get better, or having fun.

yeah...

 

[okiyama]

That's mindgames right there.

I once went to a tournament where if you got any kills on a person he would blow a whistle... really hard right into your ear. It was so annoying, but it messed him up because then he was winded and was concentrating to hard on blowing the whistle. I never saw him not get 4 stocked...

yay!

 

[sagemoon]

^ agreed w/ 2 posts up. having fun is where its at

@veysey I guess i understand where your friend is coming from. My brother used to have all these little tricks on how to bash my game mentally. I used to always be worse than him so then when i like did korean training, beating him was like a major accomplishment in my book. However he'd always make a legitimate excuse on why i won for that game. And then he'd just do things in the game that made me frustrated. And this was because i play 10 times worse when i'm mad. He told me that he "found my weakness" and bragged about how he got me down mentally. Anyways enough monologging . Bashing someones mental game just causes the person to become mad at just flat out frustrated. It ruins the experiance of smash.

Now heres a question to ask yourself. Would you feel more accomplished by beating your friend while shes playing her best? Or by beating her when shes so mentally frustrated that shes desperately trying to hit you w/ a smash attack?

 

[ph00tbag]

So, you were playing FRIENDLIES and you were so into the idea of winning that you were willing to make your friend that mad? If there were stakes it'd be different, but winning isn't what playing friendlies is about. Playing friendlies is about either practicing to get better, or having fun.

yeah...

Obviously, his friend doesn't care if it's a friendly, because she sounds pretty intense about winning. If she doesn't care, I don't see why he should.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Why are you suiciding in the first place?
...
Anyways, all I can say is MINDGAMES!!

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing that happened to me at a tournament a long time ago. I was playing vs some Falco scrub, and the first thing that he did in the match was suicide. I taunted. He got really upset, and shouted at me, "You.. You did nothing to deserve that taunt! You did nothing cool. I suicided. That's not worth a taunt." (as if there was some sort of etiquette rule saying when you're allowed to taunt) Anyway, this guy was playing worse than he originally was as the match progressed, because he couldn't get over the fact that I taunted when he suicided.

For the person that resets if someone suicides, why? Suiciding is usually a big mistake, and most people do it accidentally. Whether or not they are doing it on accident, take advantage of the fact that you have one more life than they do, and kill them for it. I suicide on purpose sometimes.

Spoiler

Kirby FTW

Your friend is a scrub. She'll get over it if she wants to do anything competitive with this game.

 

[Insane-Contrast]

I have a friend I play (what I call) 'Suicide Umbrella Matches' with. Basically the only item is Umbrellas on very high. You must grab an umbrella and jump off of the stage and die. No fastfalling is allowed. Only the first jump is allowed. First to lose 5 lives wins. Also it's a Bowser ditto. Fun. Yay SDS ^^

 

[_Phloat_]

Depends on a few things IMO.

How friendly is the friendly? Are you both drinking, laughing, and screwing around? Or is it tourney rules best of three no talking serious stuff? If you guys are really serious than what you did was cool, but if you guys are just trying to have fun and you took that from her than thats legit..but not nice >=[


Really, there was nothing wrong, but there is nothing wrong with swallowing your pride and just trying to help her have fun, especially if she is new to the game and you are trying to get her into it.

 

[Veysey]

*long winded post approaches* >_>

To clear a few things up - both of us has played Smash since it was released but both of us only recently started to get more competitive over it (Pretty much since online Brawl was confirmed). Most nights are pretty light hearted matches - you know, light bantering and a whole lotta smack talk... the good stuff. This particular night though, she had decided to 'turn up the heat' so to say. She also had me on my toes forcing me to play better then usual. While there was no official 'tonight is for blood' or anything, it was certainly how the matches were moving. Though I will admit that there are very few nights where this kind of atmosphere is present. (Though it was on this particular occasion)

To those asking why I suicided - She likes to have the satisfaction of having those pretty numbers beside my name saying how many KOs she got on me. I suicided to deprive her of that in an attempt to rattle her game face. Also, for those of you asking, it was 4 stock to two stock at that particular moment if I recall and I had 160% or so... so I wasn't really losing much in terms of security.

Whats more is she is the only person I have to play so we dont always play light hearted but we also dont always play for blood. I'm sure those of you who don't have ready access to tourneys or a variety of players can relate to how your likely small circle of smash friends can sometimes get together to play for 'keeps'.

Oh and on a side note: She was able to keep her head pretty cool tonight - I noticed a very big difference in her ability to continue to play logically after getting a little irritated. I can't say for sure it had anything to do with the 'stunt' (as she puts it) I pulled - but I'd like to think the whole situation taught her an excellent lesson in competitive gaming (way to brag eh? =P)

On a final note - she still doesn't think I should have done it to her, but after cooling down and thinking it over - she said "You should have saved it if we were ever in a tourney together or something"... so I think secretly shes accepted it as a viable 'attack' but as some of you will eventually find out - your spouse can never be wrong =/

sagemoon - To answer your question, yes - most of the time I enjoy beating someone in a straight out fair match - no tricks - straight up skill. But I'm also going to ask you a question: Don't you ever get the urge to flex your creative muscles and come up with new and sometimes completely bizarre solutions to a 'problem' (or in this case, ways to win a series of matches)?

 

[Zero_P]

Hey, you're playing a chick. Why mind gamez her? rofl

 

[_Phloat_]

Hey, you're playing a chick. Why mind gamez her? rofl

No comment..

Anyways, I kinda get where you are coming from, and assure you that you did nothing wrong, although if it rattles her that bad I don't see what you gain. I think I understand what you are talking about, sometimes it is worth barely winning or even losing a match to dominate the rest of the smash fest.


Your spouse plays games, even, plays smash, and is competitive o_o.

Lucky.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I see the predicament. You both made a good decision.

I have a friend who, during intense matches, likes go make a loud, dog-like 'FFWHOO" sound during crucial moments of the match. Eg, I'm over 140%, wall-riding a firefox to his dsmash. Just when/ just before I tech, he makes the noise to throw me off.

When he uthrows me, I always try to smash DI out of the uair, so he makes the noise. Just before I go for the dair out of the Ken combo, he goes FWHOOO really loudly and close to my face in hopes of throwing me off. When I comment on this injustice, he says "THEREZ NO ROOL AGINST IT LAWLZ". Comments?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

stop playing smash and go to the bedroom.

thread over.

 

[sagemoon]

@veysey No, i dont get that urge. Well sometimes i get the urge to make more creative combos like a random reverse up b or something. But thats the extent of it.

 

[ArcNatural]

It's the worst when people blame their losses on suicides. Even though I usually am happy that it gives me the advantage and I want to win in a competitive setting, I always feel for the person who messed up. IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE. So as long as someone doesn't deliberately lose their life then say that's the reason they lost, I don't care if they want to do it. It's up to you to make them regret doing something as risky as putting themselves down a stock.

There are a lot of tactics that players can do that avoid getting ko'd even though you essentially died because of them. Intentionally just falling cause you don't think you will make it back up, trying to tech on the floor and end up bouncing to an air dodge death (my favorite), etc.

Don't bother using the score, 1 stock, 2 stock, 3 stock, 4 is the way to go. So as long as you guys play stock matches, just tell her to make fun of how many more stocks she has over you. That can never be taken away unless someone quits the match.

 

[luigi180]

It's the worst when people blame their losses on suicides. Even though I usually am happy that it gives me the advantage and I want to win in a competitive setting, I always feel for the person who messed up. IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE. So as long as someone doesn't deliberately lose their life then say that's the reason they lost, I don't care if they want to do it. It's up to you to make them regret doing something as risky as putting themselves down a stock.

There are a lot of tactics that players can do that avoid getting ko'd even though you essentially died because of them. Intentionally just falling cause you don't think you will make it back up, trying to tech on the floor and end up bouncing to an air dodge death (my favorite), etc.

Don't bother using the score, 1 stock, 2 stock, 3 stock, 4 is the way to go. So as long as you guys play stock matches, just tell her to make fun of how many more stocks she has over you. That can never be taken away unless someone quits the match.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[lain]

that is just so ridiculous -_-

that is all.

 

[balladechina212]

stop playing smash and go to the bedroom.

thread over.

Bow chicka wow wow

 

[Sandwich]

I play kirby.

I'm supposed to suicide.

 

[Veysey]

It's the worst when people blame their losses on suicides. Even though I usually am happy that it gives me the advantage and I want to win in a competitive setting, I always feel for the person who messed up. IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE. So as long as someone doesn't deliberately lose their life then say that's the reason they lost, I don't care if they want to do it. It's up to you to make them regret doing something as risky as putting themselves down a stock.

There are a lot of tactics that players can do that avoid getting ko'd even though you essentially died because of them. Intentionally just falling cause you don't think you will make it back up, trying to tech on the floor and end up bouncing to an air dodge death (my favorite), etc.

Don't bother using the score, 1 stock, 2 stock, 3 stock, 4 is the way to go. So as long as you guys play stock matches, just tell her to make fun of how many more stocks she has over you. That can never be taken away unless someone quits the match.

We do play stock - but I guess its just her thing. She likes to know she got me. But either way, I don't blame my loss on suicides (intentional or not)... the most she'd get out of me for any kind of match I felt I should have won but didn't for whatever reason would be "Rematch"... and thats usually all I get out of her if she felt the same (she loses when she felt she should have won or done a lot better).

As for my spouse being competitive and a smasher... well, like I said, we've always enjoyed smash but just recently we both got into a more competitive atmosphere. Actually, she just picked up my "Playing to Win" book the other night and is in the process of going through it. I already see her game improving. But yeah, I consider myself pretty lucky to have access to a good opponent at any given time (which is good because we don't know ANYONE else around here who smashes) ... Now if only I can convince my kids that games are fun

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

We do play stock - but I guess its just her thing. She likes to know she got me. But either way, I don't blame my loss on suicides (intentional or not)... the most she'd get out of me for any kind of match I felt I should have won but didn't for whatever reason would be "Rematch"... and thats usually all I get out of her if she felt the same (she loses when she felt she should have won or done a lot better).

As for my spouse being competitive and a smasher... well, like I said, we've always enjoyed smash but just recently we both got into a more competitive atmosphere. Actually, she just picked up my "Playing to Win" book the other night and is in the process of going through it. I already see her game improving. But yeah, I consider myself pretty lucky to have access to a good opponent at any given time (which is good because we don't know ANYONE else around here who smashes) ... Now if only I can convince my kids that games are fun

bed·room (běd'rōōm', -rŏŏm') Pronunciation Key
n. A room in which to sleep.

 

[Puffer]

Good to know that your wife plays with you - I'm sure there's a lot of men out there that wish they had the same thing.

 

[ph00tbag]

bed·room (běd'rōōm', -rŏŏm') Pronunciation Key
n. A room in which to sleep.

I agree. Move the GC into the bedroom. That way, you can smash from the moment you wake up until just before you go to sleep.

 

[Vro]

why do you mention her changing clothing?

anything within game is legal.

 

[Luma]

well doing stuff like that in freeplay is extremly *****ie, i would just take my controller and go

if it is a tournament match, do whatever u need to win aslong as u dont break any rules

 

[Tonyman]

My way of thinking is wierd, specially with this situation, so heres what i think.

•Firstly, i belive theres no such thing as being cheap, you gotta do anything in-game you can to win, thats the prupose of the game, winning matches(fun is a bonus).

•Second, my brother often gets frustrated and SD's at high percentajes, so i dont get the kill, and i've got to admit, at first its really annoying to play someone who is sandbagging, but after a few of those SD's i started to not care, and think of them as a win. He used to laugh a bit towards my frustration when he did that, but after a while i just started saying a lilttle phrase that ended him; "With the fear you've got me is enough."

Ok, so i brought the second point a bit too long maybe?, what im trying to say is that you should play anyhow you like to win, but dont get things too personal, meaning, that if your opponents are kinda 'honorable' or whatever, well, for the fun of the game, you be too, and dont sandbag, its annoying, but if they deserve it, go on.

 

[psyt]

first of all, if killing yourself is a good thing thats kinda odd, and second, SHE???.... niiiiiice

but for cerial, meh thats not to far, its in game homie!

 

[h1roshi]

she really has no argument against you. your fine...peace

-hiro

 

[onegoal...heaven]

Dude, just tell her, "Mindgames, girl, no johns." You've done nothing wrong. Props, too, on such a clever way of winning a match.

Mindgames, Daughter!

lawlz kk srslly, just say johns or scrub then give her a sirlin article. Also remind her that even though you guys are playing to win, you're doing so to have fun. Have fun is what the game was made for. Play to win while having fun XD.