Q&A How does one cure motion sickness? - Cloud Q&A Thread

[free33]

Hey guys, is dthrow to side b a true combo? Can it be DI'd out of?

 

[Player -0]

At low percents the opponent can essentially shield any of your followups if they DI okay. If they're a fast faller then they can just shield.

So basically no

 

[_Nives_]

Hello me again since i am going to the beast , do you have any tips on how to deal with mii brawler set 1122 ??

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Hey guys, is dthrow to side b a true combo? Can it be DI'd out of?

lt's practically true with either

• a notable amount of rage
• between 6-12% on the opponent, depending on character
• a character's weight (floaties will have a harder time than others with getting out of dthrow into the first slash, although they can easily get out of side b altogether, lel)
• or precise mixes of all of the above.

Although even then, it can be inconsistent. Same for LCS, but to a lesser extent. Instead of dthrow-sideb, just go for upthrow into juggling if you aren't too sure or you know it won't work.

 

[Player -0]

I think at lowest percents, D Throw is better as if they miss DI they're forced to take airdodge land lag or jump away which nets you stage control. If they get DI they're forced into shield afaik (can some jab you?) and you can apply safe pressure or mix-ups by charging limit.

Does D-Tilt cover everything on missed DI (including jump away? Will you be punished on jump away?)

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

I think at lowest percents, D Throw is better as if they miss DI they're forced to take airdodge land lag or jump away which nets you stage control. If they get DI they're forced into shield afaik (can some jab you?) and you can apply safe pressure or mix-ups by charging limit.

Does D-Tilt cover everything on missed DI (including jump away? Will you be punished on jump away?)

Never thought about using the dthrow to force into shield. Sounds like something l should work on. But it honestly doesn't sound like it's much better than neutral, whereas if you up threw them, they'd be above you. We all know how awful it is to be above Cloud. Still sounds like something got to download with, if nothing else.

l'm not sure if dtilt will catch a jump out of dthrow. Sounds a little risky, with too little reward as you could've just gotten them in the air with up throw instead of reading the OOS option after dthrow (most characters will land, so there is rarely an airdodge to catch in the first place. Are you trying to say we use dthrow and upthrow to mix-up DI?).

This might just be wishful thinking, but l really think up throw can be useful to us.

 

[Player -0]

I mean at really low percents they don't really go that high if I recall. Then you have to worry about falling aerials or them just taking a platform.

D-Throw puts you at more of an advantage at percents like those. For the missed DI thing I meant the D-Tilt it wouldn't hit but if you were at advantage enough for follow-ups.

Turn around SH Bair probably covers stuff better consistently now that I think about it. You can hit -> D-Tilt, it autocancels so you can punish airdodge, if they jump then it eats jump, if they jump airdodge you can follow their drift. You should be able to space out and be faster than any counter attack.

Reminder I'm talking about vs. non fast fallers.

 

[Crit-A]

A tangential question, but does anyone know what kanji he's painting in the air when he does his side-special?

 

[Player -0]

Didn't they say what it was during the announcement trailer?

 

[Fenriraga]

A tangential question, but does anyone know what kanji he's painting in the air when he does his side-special?

It's a bit weird to explain.

Technically 凶 means curse/misfortune, which is a reason why Cross Slash leaves the target briefly stunned/paralyzed while the attack is executed, but the literal name for Cross Slash in Japan is "Wicked Cutter", in which 凶 is the first symbol of the japanese spelling.

I dunno, I'm certainly no Kanji expert, but that's the basic gist of it.

Also, a question of my own: does anyone have any reliable tips for doing SHFF up airs with Cloud? Even without tap jump, I can't seem to execute it reliably with how weird the positioning and start up is, and it's a motion I just can't seem to get down consistently with as small of a window as a SHFF.

 

[CaP_Omega]

It seems to me that Cloud in his current state has a LOT of opportunities to make tech chase scenarios in Smash 4, almost reminiscent of Melee Sheik. It feels like someone with good Tech Chase ability can use D-Throw, F-Throw and N-Air to tech chase faster fallers and heavier characters all the way to 70+ percent. Thoughts on this kind of play style versus anything else?

Yep, Cloud does great with tech chases. He also has amazing spacing tools: DFH-AC Dair to reposition and combo, B-air to wane and punish, N-air for zoning and point-blank crossups, U-air for mixups and shield moderation. I recommend trying to out-space your opponent and doing daring Limit Break charges in order to keep your options open and to get the drop on their next movement. Once you hit them, you should have enough of a grasp on their style to keep the pressure on. When you think they're coming back to neutral, drop a f-air on them or go for the kill. Works like a charm, let's you style hard, too.

Alright, so here's the video. I'm pretty sure this is frame cancelled, since I'm able to immediately link the jab. I'm gonna mess around with it a little more, and see if I can get dash attack out or other stuff.

Hopefully I can post a video link haha.

That looks like the AC sweet spot f-air alright. You can actually SH AC the f-air from a weak hit as well, just initiate it at the beginning of the jump so Cloud fully swings back his sword at the highest point of the hop and immediately fastfall on the first frame he swings it forward. If you do it right, it should look like the edge of the blade hits square to the ground.

Also, a question of my own: does anyone have any reliable tips for doing SHFF up airs with Cloud? Even without tap jump, I can't seem to execute it reliably with how weird the positioning and start up is, and it's a motion I just can't seem to get down consistently with as small of a window as a SHFF.

Set one of your preferred triggers to Jump and your C-stick to Attack. Practice the motion with those buttons (trigger jump, up-tilt, fastfall) until you think you have the technique down. It works smoothly for me at least.

 

[HFlash]

Hello me again since i am going to the beast , do you have any tips on how to deal with mii brawler set 1122 ??

It's pretty much the same as dealing with Mario. Play safe, use range to apply pressure safely, don't get hit. One hit leads to 5, and also watch out for the up B. Something different in this MU though is that Clouds dair/nair should out range Brawler's 2 Up B (haven't tested it for myself, so can't say for sure).

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Two questions about Cloud's hitboxes:

1) Does FSmash shift his hitbox backwards like Captain Falcon's FSmash?
2) UTilt feels like a "sometimes" move. Sometimes it hits opponents from behind, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's a good anti-air, sometimes it's not. What are the properties behind his UTilt and how do you make it more reliable?

 

[HFlash]

Two questions about Cloud's hitboxes:

1) Does FSmash shift his hitbox backwards like Captain Falcon's FSmash?
2) UTilt feels like a "sometimes" move. Sometimes it hits opponents from behind, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's a good anti-air, sometimes it's not. What are the properties behind his UTilt and how do you make it more reliable?

1) I can't deny it 100% for sure, but I have never had an fsmash hit go the other way so no, I don't think it had a backwards hit box.
2) There is definitely a hit box that looks like it should be there, but isn't (think early Marth/MK). I'd be surprised if another patch rolled by and no changes were made to it. Further more, to make it more reliable, I find if if perfect pivot towards the opponent, the missing hitbox doesn't matter.

 

[Player -0]

I think he means the hurtbox.

As for the answer I think he does a little bit. You'd be better off pivoting then doing it if you have a read on something though as it's pretty big and pivoting is pretty easy in Smash 4 for F-Smashes.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Hey, cloud mains. I've picked up cloud recently but I'm having trouble winning with him. Is there anyone who would be willing to add me on skype for some 1 on 1 training? That's the best way I learn. My skype name is pyr0maniacftw

 

[MikeMan214]

Hey I have been doing lots of battles with cloud and I do main him and I have been having trouble landing moves save on shield. Does cloud need to play more towards spacing out your oppoent because I have been getting punished to much in ladders. And kinda have been getting frustrated. I know one weakness is that he is too weak against shielding and his moves are kinda generic.

 

[Deleted member]

What are Cloud's most reliable killing options when Limit Break isn't available? I know it's important to use LB effectively and make sure you don't have it wasted once you attain Limit, but in some MUs/stages Limit camping isn't exactly viable and I wanna know.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What are Cloud's most reliable killing options when Limit Break isn't available? I know it's important to use LB effectively and make sure you don't have it wasted once you attain Limit, but in some MUs/stages Limit camping isn't exactly viable and I wanna know.

DSmash is a great punish at the ledge. Edgeguarding with Nair. Building damage and finishing with Uair after 130% or so.

 

[C0rvus]

I get plenty of kills with F-tilt and back air. Bair in particular is actually better when you don't have Limit because you can autocancel it. With Limit, you fall too fast to hit the AC.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

How should I fight the ness matchup as cloud? The ness I fight against rolls frequently, and uses pk fire on me and then grabs me. So how should I punish rolls and get around pk fire?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How should I fight the ness matchup as cloud? The ness I fight against rolls frequently, and uses pk fire on me and then grabs me. So how should I punish rolls and get around pk fire?

Bait rolls with shorthop retreating Nair. Have limit so in case he does fire PK Fire, you can pop him with Limit Blade Beam. You want him offstage as much as possible so you can bait his airhop airdodges and Nair accordingly.

You'll beat him in the air easy, minus his Fair. Staying underneath or over him will put this matchup in your favor.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Bait rolls with shorthop retreating Nair. Have limit so in case he does fire PK Fire, you can pop him with Limit Blade Beam. You want him offstage as much as possible so you can bait his airhop airdodges and Nair accordingly.

You'll beat him in the air easy, minus his Fair. Staying underneath or over him will put this matchup in your favor.

If he uses pk fire constantly and I don't have limit, what should I do in response?

 

[C0rvus]

Learn to react properly to PK Fire. DI out of it and jump away, or DI down and shield it. It's also pretty easy to predict and jump over if you're looking for it.

 

[HFlash]

I think he means the hurtbox.

As for the answer I think he does a little bit. You'd be better off pivoting then doing it if you have a read on something though as it's pretty big and pivoting is pretty easy in Smash 4 for F-Smashes.

Hurtbox is the location in which a chacter if hit by a move gets hurt, hence hurtbox. A hit box is the location that a move hits an opponent.... pretty straightforward. Rango meant with Falcon, sometimes his fsmash hits someone the opposite way (maybe because he lunges forward a bit). Cloud doesn't adjust his body so that he sends someone backwards with his fsmash from my experience.

Hey I have been doing lots of battles with cloud and I do main him and I have been having trouble landing moves save on shield. Does cloud need to play more towards spacing out your oppoent because I have been getting punished to much in ladders. And kinda have been getting frustrated. I know one weakness is that he is too weak against shielding and his moves are kinda generic.

Pretend that you are marth and try to hit people at the tip of your sword. Fair and bair (unless perfect shielded) are completely safe on shield and not that hard. If anything, practice it in training mode and try to hit the standing ai as far away as possible. Although his grabs aren't crazy good, if you notice your opponent just sits in shield, just grab him. Like, short hopping, and just dropping for a grab is known as a tomahawk. Do it.

How should I fight the ness matchup as cloud? The ness I fight against rolls frequently, and uses pk fire on me and then grabs me. So how should I punish rolls and get around pk fire?

Nothing out of the ordinary. Safe aerials on shield, force him to approach by charging limit, and don't get grabbed. Also, Cloud has an easy time gimping Ness with nair. Abuse this. As for punishing rolls, dtilt is perfect for this. Or honestly, if he just spams rolling, put a hit box where he is about to go. Cloud has a very easy time punishing rolls. Also, Ness' PKF is pretty unsafe. Shielding it (especially perfect shielding it) into a quick grab or dash attack works really well. I am going to assume you are playing for glory. Lag makes it harder to punish so try to go somewhere else like smash ladder (or play local) so you dont have to deal with as much (or no) lag.

 

[Player -0]

Wording implies differently but I don't really care.

Either way he got the answer to both potential questions.

 

[MikeMan214]

Hurtbox is the location in which a chacter if hit by a move gets hurt, hence hurtbox. A hit box is the location that a move hits an opponent.... pretty straightforward. Rango meant with Falcon, sometimes his fsmash hits someone the opposite way (maybe because he lunges forward a bit). Cloud doesn't adjust his body so that he sends someone backwards with his fsmash from my experience.



Pretend that you are marth and try to hit people at the tip of your sword. Fair and bair (unless perfect shielded) are completely safe on shield and not that hard. If anything, practice it in training mode and try to hit the standing ai as far away as possible. Although his grabs aren't crazy good, if you notice your opponent just sits in shield, just grab him. Like, short hopping, and just dropping for a grab is known as a tomahawk. Do it.





Nothing out of the ordinary. Safe aerials on shield, force him to approach by charging limit, and don't get grabbed. Also, Cloud has an easy time gimping Ness with nair. Abuse this. As for punishing rolls, dtilt is perfect for this. Or honestly, if he just spams rolling, put a hit box where he is about to go. Cloud has a very easy time punishing rolls. Also, Ness' PKF is pretty unsafe. Shielding it (especially perfect shielding it) into a quick grab or dash attack works really well. I am going to assume you are playing for glory. Lag makes it harder to punish so try to go somewhere else like smash ladder (or play local) so you dont have to deal with as much (or no) lag.

Thanks for the advice I didn't really see that many clouds use spacing to much I have been watching mew2king laterly so yeah. Sorry if I asked a bit too much there cloud is my most skilled character along with some others so never hurts to ask questions right?

 

[HFlash]

Thanks for the advice I didn't really see that many clouds use spacing to much I have been watching mew2king laterly so yeah. Sorry if I asked a bit too much there cloud is my most skilled character along with some others so never hurts to ask questions right?

As long as you are genuine, there is no such thing as a dumb question. Feel free to ask as many as you want .

Wording implies differently but I don't really care.

Either way he got the answer to both potential questions.

I mean, that's how pretty much everyone interprets the terminology. Not a biggie, but if you were to reverse the definitions, you'll most likely confuse people.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Hurtbox is the location in which a chacter if hit by a move gets hurt, hence hurtbox. A hit box is the location that a move hits an opponent.... pretty straightforward. Rango meant with Falcon, sometimes his fsmash hits someone the opposite way (maybe because he lunges forward a bit). Cloud doesn't adjust his body so that he sends someone backwards with his fsmash from my experience.

I'm referring to how they shift backwards to avoid damage. They can use it sort of as a counter attack. Someone lands with Fair, they move backwards using FSmash, and the opponent's Fair misses completely.

 

[CoveredNMoney]

Hey guys, so I'm a Wario main and I was thinking about picking up cloud as a secondary. Should he be played passively or aggressive? Do you guys think his playstyle is similar to warios?

 

[Player -0]

I mean, that's how pretty much everyone interprets the terminology. Not a biggie, but if you were to reverse the definitions, you'll most likely confuse people.

Yeah, what I meant is he most likely mixed the two. He clarifies this two posts above.

Both of our answers are still valid.

 

[~Skelly~]

Hey guys, so I'm a Wario main and I was thinking about picking up cloud as a secondary. Should he be played passively or aggressive? Do you guys think his playstyle is similar to warios?

Cloud should be played more passively. He is best used as a spacing (Nair and Blade Beam are your best friends) and punishing character. Force your opponent to approach with Limit Charge or BB and punish accordingly when they start to attack, use Nair to keep them back, etc. If played aggressively, Cloud can be put into a disadvantage due to a few of his attacks being punishable, namely FSmash and all of his LB attacks if they miss, and being easy to gimp offstage. That's not to say he CAN'T be used aggressively. If you can get your opponent into a juggle with Uair, you can rack up damage and follow up with combos. I'd stick to spacing and punishing if you can't juggle.

As for being similar to Wario? They both can rack up damage, but their playstyles are different, I think. Wario has to get up close to be effective, Cloud does not since Wario doesn't have spacing tools aside from possibly his Wario Bike (if that even counts).

Hope this helps. I'd tell you more, but it's early and my brain is only half on, haha.

 

[HFlash]

I'm referring to how they shift backwards to avoid damage. They can use it sort of as a counter attack. Someone lands with Fair, they move backwards using FSmash, and the opponent's Fair misses completely.

Ahh I see now. Cloud doesn't move backwards at all. You can see it in the new thread just opened up: http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-hitbox-visualization.432698/

Hey guys, so I'm a Wario main and I was thinking about picking up cloud as a secondary. Should he be played passively or aggressive? Do you guys think his playstyle is similar to warios?

They are similar in that they both "charge" up a very strong move. The difference is that Cloud can mix it up better an play aggressively when he is at an advantage. Wario kinda just annoys you until he has his waft up. I have seen alot of high level warios compare the two as both of their unique traits are similar to one another.

As for Cloud, he should be played similarly as the post above mentions. Use safe moves in the neutral, and be aggressive when you are in an advantaged state.

 

[CoveredNMoney]

Thanks for the response guys. Also I remember seeing on Twitter that There was a shirt with bayonetta cloud and ryu.(?) That said "pay to win". I was wondering if that shirt was still available.

 

[OceloT42]

I know that for all his strengths, Cloud has to be weak somewhere, but being absolutely pathetic against shielding opponents is ridiculous.
Everyone I fight online just goes for the shieldgrab.I still beat them, but my matches become slow af.
How do you fellow Clouds deal with shielders? I go for a grab, but his grabs are terrible, as you know.
Is there any move that could (situationally) break shields? None of the LB specials seem to do the job.

 

[GHNeko]

If they're shielding too much... Just...grab them. Over and over and over.

And Dthrow them if you're center stage, or throw them off stage if you're near the ledge. No you dont get solid converts off of throw all the time, but you get positional advantage and free damage. If they're taking shielding to an extreme, than charge limit and force them to approach.

Honestly, this should be your go to tactic. Make em approach. Cant shield while approaching. If they running shield, grab them and throw them. Your throw follow ups are stronger as L-Cloud anyways, so you want to be playing as L-Cloud more often against shield happy opponents.

When they stop getting grabbed by shielding less, you'll have an easier time.

But until they do, just play to win. If it causes matches to drag on, so be it.


As for shield break technology, the only **** I'm aware of that's only "almost viable" is auto canceled dair into LB CS on shield. Dair has some sizable shield damage, and so does LB CS. But the shield stun on dair doesnt last long enough for LB CS. However, you can set up frame traps with AC Dair into LB CS if you hit as close as possible to the last frame of AC Dair, on top of crossing up.

SO there is that???

But you gotta practice that **** loll

 

[HFlash]

^^^^^ This a million times. The only tidbit I'd add is that Bair to LB CS is pretty good for breaking shield. Is cloud good against shielding? No not really, but other top characters in this game have an even worse time vs shielding ( come to mind).

Also, this belongs in the general Q&A thread, not as a separate thread. Please refer to that thread for future questions.

 

[Lazlo_Bananas]

Bair is pretty safe on shield though...

 

[GHNeko]

Bair is safe on shield, but its not like it puts pressure on them and forces them to stop shielding all the time.

 

[W.A.C.]

Does Cloud lose to anyone besides Shiek? What matchups does he go even in?