Q&A How does one cure motion sickness? - Cloud Q&A Thread

[GHNeko]

I'm off the opinion that he only loses to Fox, MK, and Shiek.

As for what are his even MUs? Not tooooo sure

 

[W.A.C.]

How does Cloud do against Pikachu?

 

[~Skelly~]

How does Cloud do against Pikachu?

I say Cloud is at a disadvantage due to Pikachu's combo game, offstage options and not having to approach thanks to Thunder Jolt.

 

[GHNeko]

But Cloud can juggle pika easy, has the range game, doesnt really care about thunder jolt, can still force pika to approach, and kill fairly early because is a featherweight (79 weight).

Pika deff has to kill at much later percents than Cloud, and will be forced to try to gimp because I think Cloud will win in the battle of attrition, which makes Pika's gameplay easier to pick up on.

I dont think Pika beats Cloud at all lol.

 

[~Skelly~]

But Cloud can juggle pika easy, has the range game, doesnt really care about thunder jolt, can still force pika to approach, and kill fairly early because is a featherweight (79 weight).

Pika deff has to kill at much later percents than Cloud, and will be forced to try to gimp because I think Cloud will win in the battle of attrition, which makes Pika's gameplay easier to pick up on.

I dont think Pika beats Cloud at all lol.

True. Pika's only real advantages are his offstage options and can gimp Cloud fairly easily (but who doesn't, haha). Might just be the Pika's I've ran into that made me think he had the advantage.

 

[Zalezus]

I think Cloud wins against Pika

offstage shenanigans aside, and after having learned how to deal with Quick Attack cancels, Pika loses the range and patience game.

Pika needs to make a read to gimp you offstage. Learn to vary the timing of your recovery with Cross Slash or wavebounced Blade Beam offstage to throw off his read timing, air dodge through Thunder and you're golden.

 

[Muddyk]

Question. Does Limit Cross Slash go through Witch Time? I'm not sure how the iframes on that move work. I know counters don't work on it but what about witch time?

 

[GHNeko]

L-CS is invincible on Frame 6 until Frame 11. It hits on frame 10 and 11.

Because L-CS is, for all intents and purposes, a multi hit move; it will usuaally have success against WT.

Reasons being;

• WT in generally has issues with multihit moves because hitboxes stay active.
• L-CS is still safe on shield, so even if Bayonetta tries to punish from shield, she wont be able to.
• Her smash attacks have really low "priority" and as such she will not be able to beat out L-CS hitboxes.
• 3 frame gap between hit 1 and hit 2 of L-CS; 4 frame gap between Hit 2 and hit 3, 5f gap between Hit 3 and Hit 4; and finally 11f gap between hit 4 and the final hit. There's no way she's gonna squeeze in a hit between the first 4 hits. Her dtilt is frame 9, so she can find some way to hit you between 4 and 5, but even then she only has a 2-3f window of error else she'll get clipped. Risk reward ratio is skewed in cloud's favor.

So it's a fairly strong form of counter play to Bayonetta's witch time.

 

[Muddyk]

L-CS is invincible on Frame 6 until Frame 11. It hits on frame 10 and 11.

Because L-CS is, for all intents and purposes, a multi hit move; it will usuaally have success against WT.

Reasons being;

• WT in generally has issues with multihit moves because hitboxes stay active.
• L-CS is still safe on shield, so even if Bayonetta tries to punish from shield, she wont be able to.
• Her smash attacks have really low "priority" and as such she will not be able to beat out L-CS hitboxes.
• 3 frame gap between hit 1 and hit 2 of L-CS; 4 frame gap between Hit 2 and hit 3, 5f gap between Hit 3 and Hit 4; and finally 11f gap between hit 4 and the final hit. There's no way she's gonna squeeze in a hit between the first 4 hits. Her dtilt is frame 9, so she can find some way to hit you between 4 and 5, but even then she only has a 2-3f window of error else she'll get clipped. Risk reward ratio is skewed in cloud's favor.

So it's a fairly strong form of counter play to Bayonetta's witch time.

cool thanks for the info. maybe i can try beating WT with LCS now.

 

[Player -0]

I thought I remember seeing a video with Bae-o punishing LCS with Witch Time.

You can witch time then roll behind Cloud I think?

 

[GHNeko]

I thought I remember seeing a video with Bae-o punishing LCS with Witch Time.

You can witch time then roll behind Cloud I think?

You'd have to predict not only Cloud using an attack, but specifically Cloud using L-CS.

At that point, if its possible; that's just a super hard read and usually super hard reads beat EVERYTHING in Smash.

EDIT: Maybe I understood wrong. Are you talking about WTing in place or WT backwards?

 

[Player -0]

I might be misunderstanding how Witch Time works.

Can you not just witch time and then roll behind Cloud and then meme him?

 

[GHNeko]

cool thanks for the info. maybe i can try beating WT with LCS now.

I might be misunderstanding how Witch Time works.

Can you not just witch time and then roll behind Cloud and then meme him?

Herp. I'm dumb. For some reason I was thinking about LSC and Bat Within.

I...honestly have no clue why.

LCS gets bopped by WT.

LCS hitboxes stay active, but unlock most moves, they dont stay active for very long. So Bayo can punish mid LCS, but if she's too slow then you can still hit her.

I honestly dont know what I was on lmfao.

Sorry about that Muddyk and Player -0

 

[1ne Up]

What stages do you generally ban as Cloud?
I'm not a fan of Dreamland or FD just because of Sheik but idk i'm new as **** and don't know too much

 

[FightingPolygon]

How do I fight RosaLuma? How do I escape her Uair combos? How do I approach? Etc

 

[GHNeko]

What stages do you generally ban as Cloud?
I'm not a fan of Dreamland or FD just because of Sheik but idk i'm new as **** and don't know too much

Dreamland is a good stage for Cloud. FD/Platformless stages are problem the least preferred by Cloud users because no platforms to shark. Cloud generally is at his strongest with platforms.

So try to stay away from FD. TnC is another stage I think you could stand to avoid. DH is probably 3rd.

 

[MikeMan214]

Who's a good secondary for cloud I have been using Dark Pit lately as well as toon link.

 

[Player -0]

Cloud probably doesn't even need a secondary.

Like I'm not big in the Cloud boards but some of questions I think can be looked around for a tad longer.

Like what tournament happened recently with top level Rosa vs. Cloud? Shots Fired 2; Tweek vs. Dabuz iirc. Unsure on how to understand videos? You're asking the wrong questions then. Learn how the neutral/edgeguard/etc works, don't have a theory. Watch yourself as you play to feel it.


Secondaries? Why do you pick up secondaries? To cover matchups or because you like them enough to play as them. There's like 2 threads on this board put forward for Cloud's worst match ups.

They're all controversial? Good, that means it's not unwinnable. Push yourself fully into your main, secondaries won't help fundamental problems. You find you don't like a matchup? Figure out the character's difficult matchups then find a character that you enjoy that's one of them.



Like I'm pretty guilty of it I'm sure but being conscious of these things is important. Skim the boards for 2 minutes, 120 seconds. Don't see it and about to be busy? Post the question with your thoughts on it. Come back later, look a bit more, amend your question/thoughts.

I'm not trying to deter people from questions, don't get me wrong I'm just asking the question, do you want to get good? To push yourself as a player? (Rhetorical question)

Edit - Have some happy sheep

 

[~Skelly~]

How do I fight RosaLuma? How do I escape her Uair combos? How do I approach? Etc

When fighting Rosalina, when playing as any character for that matter, take out her Luma first. Rosa's effectiveness is seriously reduced when she doesn't have it. Cross Slash and LB CS are your best friends here.

Don't challenge her Uair head on. Instead, DI up and out either left or right to get out. You can also use CH just before she attacks to get out and counterattack (not guaranteed). These are also not your only options, they're just ones I use.

With Cloud, don't approach at all. Instead, use BB or charge Limit to force your opponent to approach. Punish accordingly when they do.

Juggle Rosa with your Uair if and when you can.

And finally, use Nair, Bair, and Fair often. They have solid range and are excellent spacing tools, good damage output, and are safe on shield (most of the time).

Hope this helped. If you have any more questions, let me know.

 

[MaxRevenge]

What do you guys think of Cloud's U-Air 1% nerf? Do you feel that it improves his combo potential at all?

I'm not a star cloud player, so any input would be nice. Thanks.

 

[GHNeko]

No. I dont think It improves his combo potential.

Because reducing damage also reduces hitstun. In the situations it does improve combo potential, I dont think it would have mattered.

 

[Player -0]

Well reducing damage reduces knockback which reduces hitstun.

Either way if they didn't increase KBG it's essentially a damage and kill nerf.

So didn't really get anything back.


Either way I'm pretty sure Cloud is relatively better now with the Sheik, ZSS, MK nerfs. I should probably check if he even loses matchups

 

[GHNeko]

Pretty sure the hitstun reduction comes from damage.

But yeah you're right. Either way we didnt get anything back.

EDIT: Double checked. Hitstun is based on knockback. My b.

 

[MaxRevenge]

Why are the Corrin mains saying that the -1% damage nerf to their aerials is helping their combo game? Are they wrong?

 

[Hero_2_All]

Why are the Corrin mains saying that the -1% damage nerf to their aerials is helping their combo game? Are they wrong?

Corrin main here, knock back on a move is proportional to its dmg. Decreasing the damage on our combo moves gave us less knock back on them. This made our combo moves combo better, and to later percents. Also Up air was nerfed in dmg so it should kill later, but its recently come light that our up air had the ratio of knock back to dmg buffed so the 1% really only effects its dmg and not so much the kill power (still slightly less kill power from pre patch Up air). The knock back ratios for the other aerials have not been touched and so less knock back than before.

 

[MaxRevenge]

Corrin main here, knock back on a move is proportional to its dmg. Decreasing the damage on our combo moves gave us less knock back on them. This made our combo moves combo better, and to later percents. Also Up air was nerfed in dmg so it should kill later, but its recently come light that our up air had the ratio of knock back to dmg buffed so the 1% really only effects its dmg and not so much the kill power (still slightly less kill power from pre patch Up air). The knock back ratios for the other aerials have not been touched and so less knock back than before.

By that logic, wouldn't cloud also have gotten a combo "buff" from his -1% damage nerf?

 

[GHNeko]

Hitstun is a period of time after being hit by an attack that a character is unable to act outside of directional influence or teching. It is directly dependent on knockback, so at a same damage percentage, an attack like Falcon Punch will have more hitstun than one like Thunder Jolt. When a hit deals insufficient knockback to lift the opponent off the ground, hitstun is equal to the length of the flinch animation, while at higher knockbacks it is a straight multiplier of the knockback received. Each Smash game has a programmed value that is multiplied by the amount of knockback received to determine the amount of frames a character is locked in hitstun after being hit; for example, Melee has a hitstun multiplier of 0.4 frames per unit of knockback, so a hit that deals 100 units of knockback will leave the target in hitstun for 40 frames.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/hitstun

 

[Hero_2_All]

By that logic, wouldn't cloud also have gotten a combo "buff" from his -1% damage nerf?

Only if the hit stun loss does not counter act it. The problem for corrin was she couldn't actually make it high enough in time to the targets before . This was due to the high knock back of her combo moves at higher percent. She would need to use a double jump to make to were the target was (which takes precious frames). Now targets are closer to her with less hit stun, but this benefits her overall because of her low innate mobility. A f-air that needed a double jump before now only needs a single full hop (because of which she would have not made it in time). The frames needed to do a double jump and get into range of the target are greater than the frames of hit stun lost. Thus she can combo much easier at mid to high percents. In a nutshell the lowered range from the targets makes it easier for Corrin to get there before hit stun runs out (even though hit stun is less). For cloud It might not be as beneficial as his movement is much higher.

 

[FightingPolygon]

{too long to quote}

Thank you very much! Could you share some more of your knowledge on things like what to do when she/you is/are offstage? And what stages to ban and stages to lean for? You know, the deeper stuff like that.

The RosaLuma I'm somewhat struggling with is known as 'MooM", he is regarded as the best RosaLuma player in the Middle East and arguably the world, so I know he'll be smarter than just letting the MU fly over him like that. I AM heavily studying him as a player as well to maximize my chance of winning, of course.

 

[~Skelly~]

Any stage with platforms such as Battlefield or Dreamland are stages that Cloud benefits from quite a bit because you can get more fluid combo strings out and you can shielddrop onto the platform below you.

When Rosa's offstage, what I do is keep her back with Nair and BB from the edge, use Fair as well since the sourspot has solid KB and the sweetspot spikes. I only use Dair when I know I can land the spike (though I also use it to keep her back if I can recover). LB CS is also an effective method (when is it not, haha) to wall her recovery as well as be used for stage spikes. Stick to edge of the stage instead of going offstage for KOs unless it's close to the edge.

When YOU'RE offstage, your options depend on where you are. If you're recovering from up high, you can mixup your attacks to keep you're opponent back as you recover. If you're trying to recover low, unless you have Limit, there's not much you can do aside from twiddle you're thumbs and hope for the best.

Learn to use Cloud's foxtrot. He has arguably the best one in the game next to and it'll allow you to be unpredictable.

There's also a new thing we learned where we can immediately attack with any of our moves when we recover from a ledge. There's a video on it somewhere in the last 20 or so pages of the Cloud social. Practice getting this down.

Hope this helped. And regarding the player you mentioned, just keep practicing. In the end, it's the player's skill that makes all the difference.

 

[Scrubtorights]

Sup.
1. What is Cloud's safety on shield?
2.Would a more grounded approach be effective for fighting a Cloud.(What characters would be hindered or benefit from staying more grounded in a match?)
Thank you in advance.

 

[GHNeko]

Tipped Bair, Retreating Fair, Spaced Uair.

Those are his safest aerials on shield.


Approaching Cloud from the air vs ground is character specific because Cloud can do either well.

 

[MikeMan214]

Is his nair safe if you retreat it? Because when I do a fast fall i think its still punishable though even at the end of it.

 

[GHNeko]

Fastfalling Nair subjects you to landing lag. If you retreat and dont hit, then you're creating a window of opportunity for your opponent to punish you. Landing lag increases this window of opportunity.

So while I wont say if its safe or not safe because how safe a move is, is dependent on the MU (Shiek can punish nair better than Zelda for example), I will say that not making use of AC windows when spacing/walling will make it easier for you to get punished.

 

[MikeMan214]

Fastfalling Nair subjects you to landing lag. If you retreat and dont hit, then you're creating a window of opportunity for your opponent to punish you. Landing lag increases this window of opportunity.

So while I wont say if its safe or not safe because how safe a move is, is dependent on the MU (Shiek can punish nair better than Zelda for example), I will say that not making use of AC windows when spacing/walling will make it easier for you to get punished.

Mkay thx just want a clearing on that.

 

[Krysco]

No FAQ on the OP so I'ma ask these 2 questions without going through the 5 pages.

1: Does Cloud's passive limit building build up even if he hits a shield? I know Mac's KO Punch meter is like that and I could honestly check this myself but I'm asking a question that's less easy to find out on my own so figured I'd ask this one too.

2: Edgeguarding with Cloud? Best options and is it worth it in Limit mode? High recovery seems obvious with fair, bair and nair but low recoveries, with Cloud's limited air time off stage, it seems you can only really get one attempt at an aerial before you have to go back. Dair and uair seem good for catching the two frames but they also pop the enemy up unless you get the meteor with dair. And then there's Cloud with Limit. You fall faster and don't want to waste it on a recovery from an edgeguard attempt, especially a failed one so is it usually better to just stay on stage and try to get a ledge getup read? I guess Limit Cross Slash is a good edgeguarding tool but you need to be sure you'll land it.

 

[GHNeko]

1. No; Cloud only builds limit via charging, dealing damage, and receiving damage.

2. Nair and non-limit Blade Beam are your 2 strongest edgeguarding tools. It's worth it with L-Cloud if you know you can seal the stock going off stage. Dont be afraid to burn limit to edgeguard. A stock is a stock. If you burn limit to edgeguard successfully, than it's no different than sealing the stock with Limit Break moves.

But don't forget that Cloud has bair for ledgetrumping.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey i'm new to the Cloud boards and i'm not sure if this has been covered, but how does one approach with Cloud? Once again, not sure if this has been covered, but what moves are good in Cloud's neutral? I've heard things about his great neutral, just not sure what to do in it. Thanks!

 

[GHNeko]

You arguably don't approach with Cloud lel.

But when you have to, the 3 basic moves you approach with is AC Dair, Nair, and Bair. You approach with Nair and Bair in a fashion that you hit at max range in order to make them as safe as possible, and with Dair you go for shield cross-ups, hitting as late as possible to maximize shield advantage so that you can be safe.

 

[Greatest Enemy]

So what's Cloud's best option against Ryu's focus attack? Grounded, it seems like Jab is best, but when Ryu focuses while coming down from the air I'm at a loss. Do I just have to end my string there and let him come back down?

The only multi-hit I could think of was up-b, but Ryu would be able to tank the first hit and dash out of focus attack to avoid the other hits. Maybe the best thing Cloud can do is just respect it?