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how do you fight lylats
- Thread starter Zorai
- Start date
fZk
Smash Lord
One strategy I can think of is, when at mid range, glide toss down to bait the reflector, then re-grab the banana and toss it or go in and punish to abuse the cool down frames of the reflectors. This is hardest with Falco because of his long lasting disjointed reflector. Also, check the guides there's bound to be good stuff there.
mastermiind
Smash Apprentice
This is true but wont work on most falcos bc he cant be punished berween reflectors so th only thing u can realy do againts him is toss a bannana in the air durring the reflector to trip him then go back 2 playing normal
For wolf you just gotta spam popguns when he tries 2 get back it will kill him every time if u hit him righ b4 the B-up
and fox all u gotta do is stay away from him use nanners reverse glide-toss and then combo whenever u get a good nanna of
Overall tho spam popguns while there off the ledge works pretty well on all
For wolf you just gotta spam popguns when he tries 2 get back it will kill him every time if u hit him righ b4 the B-up
and fox all u gotta do is stay away from him use nanners reverse glide-toss and then combo whenever u get a good nanna of
Overall tho spam popguns while there off the ledge works pretty well on all
Player-1
Smash Legend
Wolf and Fox, diddy has an advantage over. Falco is the only problem because of his thrown reflector
Count
Smash Champion
How do you figure diddy has an advantage over wolf?!?!
Player-1
Smash Legend
Easy to combo, easy to gimp, fastfalls, his reflector isn't very practical when the Diddy player knows what he is doing, Bair to Fsmash or Dsmash or Bair to anything is easy to see coming.
I play a good wolf often and I say its about even if not a little in wolfs favor. You say the reflector isn't practical if the diddy knows what there doing, well the thing is it IS practical if the WOLF knows what they are doing. The reflector comes out fast so its pretty easy to time against nanerz, the only problem with it is it has a lot of cool down lag. But its still a very easy way to lose control of your nanerz.
Wolfs aerial game, bair mostly, also outspeeds/ranges diddys air game.Well spaced bairs are very hard to punish. Laser spam also forces you to approach and outranges nanerz (unless you jump). Wolf can also gimp your recovery very easily by deploying your rocket barrels with the reflector.
Im not saying wolf has some huge advantage, but its not like "diddy combos wolf: diddy>wolf". There is a lot more to that matchup.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Even if they do know what they're doing with the reflector, the Diddy should always beat them. I'd much rather be able to control the attack and choose when to attack than guess when to use a reflector.
You don't need to punish bairs, you just can't get punished by them. Fox shine>Wolf shine for gimping recoveries and you shouldn't be getting gimped by Fox more than once or twice a set.
Count
Smash Champion
We already determined here that it is 60-40 wolf, if the wolf is smart this matchup is hard. I wanna hear what NL has to say about this.
its not a guess with shine it comes out fast enough to just see it coming and react imo.
and when the wolf puts up a wall of bairs as an approach its not a matter of not getting punished by them, it is a safe approach for wolf that you cant do too much about. As defensive as brawl can be you cant just stand there and let your shield drain eventually you have to go after that bairing wolf and it can be difficult. Same goes for a laser camping wolf, you have to approach it.
wolf//diddy is even at very best. saying diddy has the advantage isnt fair. All diddy really has going for him is combos because wolfs a fast-faller, but after like 40% thats all over with anyway and its not like diddy has trouble getting ANY character to 40%.
Player-1
Smash Legend
There's no way you can see a banana and react to it unless MAYBE if you're at the maximum distance to be able to throw it and hit him.
You don't need to punish them because you just shield the bair, shield the follow up, roll out, run, and pull out more bananas and just destroy Wolf after that. Approaching Wolf is pretty easy, I've never had problems side-b'ing him or throw some banans at him while he's camping.
Diddy has more than combos. He has peanut gimps and normal gimps. The only neautral stage Wolf will have any advantage on is YI. He can't do to much about the bananas but reflect them and the reflector is easy to get around and if he uses it, you can take advantage of the cool down lag. The ONLY problem I ever have with any Wolf player are the bairs which still isn't too hard to get around and one thing will not change the whole match-up around.
While we're on Wolf, I need to say that Diddy wins this fight. If Wolf even thinks of aerial approaching, he will get owned by the popgun and he'll fast fall.
That's when Diddy starts ******.
Either way; Wolf is not the hadest Lylat. Why should we fuss so much about him when we have Falco to worry about?
That's when Diddy starts ******.
Either way; Wolf is not the hadest Lylat. Why should we fuss so much about him when we have Falco to worry about?
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
They're called 'lylats' now? Back in melee they were 'spaceys' (space animals)..lol.
I play fox and the only thing I can contribute is that he is probably the easiest matchup out of the three. Diddy has to keep optimum spacing though because IIRC he's relatively light and usmash OOS is devastating.
I play fox and the only thing I can contribute is that he is probably the easiest matchup out of the three. Diddy has to keep optimum spacing though because IIRC he's relatively light and usmash OOS is devastating.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Fox and wolf aren't a problem, I've played a good wolf and it wasn't anything that I felt I couldn't handle. Falco you just can't get grabbed, and you have to be really careful about throwing and you'll do fine. Marth is harder than them all..
Player-1
Smash Legend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl2WBdzBQ-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkALbGf_bMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJMT6I8-qeA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cDtLqcKQKo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx23V0U1eKQ&feature=related
Ranked #1 on Gamebattles and won the Spring play offs in GB. Trust me, I've played a good Wolf. This is the only Wolf that can beat me that now, that I know of. I've beaten the rank #2 person on GB who also mains Wolf, our recrod is 3-0, me 3. Of course these matches are onine, but who do you think suffers in lag more, Wolf or Diddy?
ChromePirate, Falco is a lot more than "Mr. Grabs-a-lot".
He has a lot more techniques that we should be discussing on how to handle. Example: approaching those lasers.
Wolf is the easiest IMHO. Use Nanas to get in grabs and smashes. Use the popgun to screw him up. Get him to mess up basically.
Fox is easy to mess with since he's forced to approach, and usually, screw up.
He has a lot more techniques that we should be discussing on how to handle. Example: approaching those lasers.
Wolf is the easiest IMHO. Use Nanas to get in grabs and smashes. Use the popgun to screw him up. Get him to mess up basically.
Fox is easy to mess with since he's forced to approach, and usually, screw up.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Your tail still sticks out when you crawl, you still get hit by the lasers. You can avoid Pit arrows though
ADHD
Smash Hero
You have to pluck your bananas in a way with good timing so the lasers don't hit you, jump in between them and pluck one, then jump again and pluck another. Crawling doesn't work, he can just phantasm before you can hit him with a banana or spam lasers on the ground in standing position--either way both are really annoying. And yes, everything falco has other than chain grab, reflector, and lasers is no match for diddy's amazing banana glide tossing game
first off_insert statement here about online sucking_
no i play online sometimes too but ya...wifi changes things/look im not saying that guy isnt good or whatever but matchups are highly theoretical. Wolf as a character is built fairly well to fight a diddy,much better than most the rest of the cast, the only thing he really has going against him is the weight and like I said before its not like diddy has trouble comboing ANY CHARACTER to like 40%.
If you throw out player skill all together and look at wolfs as a character vs diddy as a character its hard to make a strong argument for diddy other than he combos.
i'll call a truce at 50-50
I think Chrome is onto something.
Ok, so now we know we can pluck in between the lasers by jumping through them, and even better, I discovered how to use them.
Once you get past the lasers, just stand there and wait for the shine. After that, ****.
Ok, so now we know we can pluck in between the lasers by jumping through them, and even better, I discovered how to use them.
Once you get past the lasers, just stand there and wait for the shine. After that, ****.
mastermiind
Smash Apprentice
no offense brawlbro but if u use diddy u sure are a negative person bc
wolf + popgun = death
because wolf fast falls and cant recover if he is hit durring the B-up bc he will fall with out enought time 2 react the only reason ur friend beats u is bc he knows ur playing style just switch it up some
u keep disregarding what people have 2 say it wont help u get better
most wolfs can fight diddy very well but the same can be said for diddy to wolf it just requires u 2 think ahead of things try changeing ur bannana paters here and there but never be without nanners
wolf + popgun = death
because wolf fast falls and cant recover if he is hit durring the B-up bc he will fall with out enought time 2 react the only reason ur friend beats u is bc he knows ur playing style just switch it up some
u keep disregarding what people have 2 say it wont help u get better
most wolfs can fight diddy very well but the same can be said for diddy to wolf it just requires u 2 think ahead of things try changeing ur bannana paters here and there but never be without nanners
Player-1
Smash Legend
60:40 in Diddy's favor, I'm not settling for any less. Diddy can still combo Wolf at like 70%....first off_insert statement here about online sucking_
look im not saying that guy isnt good or whatever but matchups are highly theoretical. Wolf as a character is built fairly well to fight a diddy,much better than most the rest of the cast, the only thing he really has going against him is the weight and like I said before its not like diddy has trouble comboing ANY CHARACTER to like 40%.
If you throw out player skill all together and look at wolfs as a character vs diddy as a character its hard to make a strong argument for diddy other than he combos.
i'll call a truce at 50-50
You would think that Wolf has a better match-up against Diddy....but he just doesn't.
ha, i thought you were talking about the stage. "dun gimme da lylats"-julian. lol k anyway i'd never heard them called that before. usually furries or spacies. well... i'm too lazy to read the above posts, but if not previously mentioned, you just have to be careful about when you throw bananas. If you don't use them for a while, they tend to forget about their reflector for a minute. then they realized they're getting ***** and by the time they can use their reflector again to punish you, they're down a stock. don't forget the fatalities fake either. run at them, throw the banana in a different direction, punish reflector. (i usually glide toss down, because technically that's more likely to hit. this is really weird, but basically if you reflect something you can go straight into a roll from it, but you can't jump out of it the same way. if they were to jump they could hit the upthrown naner, but they can't. instead, if they ever roll behind you, they will hit the banana.) i think advent would refer to this as an SC glide toss (dashing to glide toss). fatalities came up with the idea early of throwing the banana up or down. (you don't have to GT if thrown up, but if you GT, you can throw it up, down, or even back. it adds a bit of lag in some cases, but sometimes spacing can be more important.) you can also mindgame them into using the reflector by instancancelling the popgun.
Fluke
Smash Journeyman
When I'm using Falco, I only shine against close opponents of >80% it will hit, as it is so **** punishable.
Using Diddy, I would glide toss backward to get out of the shine range, but can throw the banana any direction (reflected banana still doesn't hit you)
If Falco shines, you would be able to quickly pick up the banana and throw again, maybe even glide tossing back again if he is going to spam his reflector. Either way, eventually you will bait him to punish , at the worse you will get hit and trip.
However I sometimes also SH retreating shine, but if you delay the throw, you can make me slip where I would land (I can't di too much to avoid it)
Using Diddy, I would glide toss backward to get out of the shine range, but can throw the banana any direction (reflected banana still doesn't hit you)
If Falco shines, you would be able to quickly pick up the banana and throw again, maybe even glide tossing back again if he is going to spam his reflector. Either way, eventually you will bait him to punish , at the worse you will get hit and trip.
However I sometimes also SH retreating shine, but if you delay the throw, you can make me slip where I would land (I can't di too much to avoid it)
AlAxe
Smash Journeyman
I don't see wolf as being much of a problem. If your careful with bananas you should be able to avoid getting them reflected for the most part. Anyways most wolfs won't even know what to do with bananas.
It's also really easy to gimp wolf's recovery. Just spam the popgun and bananas and time your edgehogging well.
Falco is an ahole though. He's beatable if you play really well but the matchup is definitely in Falco's favor.
It's also really easy to gimp wolf's recovery. Just spam the popgun and bananas and time your edgehogging well.
Falco is an ahole though. He's beatable if you play really well but the matchup is definitely in Falco's favor.
Fluke
Smash Journeyman
Also, if Falco predicts you are going to rocketbarrel cancel, he can shine you. The rockets fly, but they belong to falco, leaving you in a lot of hurt.
He can also do this to you in the air, but most of the time you want to use it to recover would be below the stage, so falco shine would be suicidal if used there.
He can also do this to you in the air, but most of the time you want to use it to recover would be below the stage, so falco shine would be suicidal if used there.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Falco match-up is obviously 60-40 at least, 65-35 perhaps.
Wolf is leaning toward Wolf, 55-45, maybe even 60-40.
You all mention popgun gimping, but that really isn't THAT useful against a Wolf or Falco who has experience against good Diddys. If anything, use the bananas to gimp, as any decent player is going to alter their flight trajectory in order to avoid the popgun arch.
What techs should we be using less/more of? Diddy-hump gimping is a MUST against these two. Against Wolf, use popgun not to gimp, but for stopping the bair approach (charge it, don't just shoot, they'll either catch it or get hit when you use it properly, when they catch it, punish their furry ***).
Against Falco, I find I have more luck just jumping around and avoiding the lasers altogether as opposed to powershielding and running off that, as it's a very offensive approach and he's still inching towards you as you're dodging lasers.
Use only one banana against Falco imo, as he can take possession of them while they're on the ground, also try using a LOT more backwards dribbling in order to space yourself. This is just about the only battle aside from Olimar that Diddy really can't rely on his bananas to approach, you've gotta somehow force him into your hands.
This obviously isn't an end all statement on exactly how to approach and punish the *** spaceys, but it's a few ideas we should all take into account when playing against them.
Also worth note for those who are unaware: Wolf's reflector has INVINCIBILITY FRAMES. Be careful with using jab against him, as well as grabbing when he isn't in his forced trip animation <.<
Wolf is leaning toward Wolf, 55-45, maybe even 60-40.
You all mention popgun gimping, but that really isn't THAT useful against a Wolf or Falco who has experience against good Diddys. If anything, use the bananas to gimp, as any decent player is going to alter their flight trajectory in order to avoid the popgun arch.
What techs should we be using less/more of? Diddy-hump gimping is a MUST against these two. Against Wolf, use popgun not to gimp, but for stopping the bair approach (charge it, don't just shoot, they'll either catch it or get hit when you use it properly, when they catch it, punish their furry ***).
Against Falco, I find I have more luck just jumping around and avoiding the lasers altogether as opposed to powershielding and running off that, as it's a very offensive approach and he's still inching towards you as you're dodging lasers.
Use only one banana against Falco imo, as he can take possession of them while they're on the ground, also try using a LOT more backwards dribbling in order to space yourself. This is just about the only battle aside from Olimar that Diddy really can't rely on his bananas to approach, you've gotta somehow force him into your hands.
This obviously isn't an end all statement on exactly how to approach and punish the *** spaceys, but it's a few ideas we should all take into account when playing against them.
Also worth note for those who are unaware: Wolf's reflector has INVINCIBILITY FRAMES. Be careful with using jab against him, as well as grabbing when he isn't in his forced trip animation <.<
DUB
Smash Lord
Dekar, Diddy humping the majority of the cast is impractical for a gimp. Let alone the spacies. Popgun being the most efficient gimp tool, along with naners is the best bet. If it doesn't work, leastwise you might of racked up damage or got the edgehog.
I main wolf, I'd personally say it's a more or less even matchup. A good wolf will have ways of avoiding the peanut gimp, but if you hit wolf with a peanut offstage he's in serious trouble. Shine is overrated, but still very helpful. I don't really know what to do with bananas, but diddy can use them a lot better than wolf can. Bair is, as usual, wolf's best move in this matchup, your best option is probably to shield it and then run for the naners. Killing outright is a lot easier for wolf than diddy, so focusing on gimps is what will win you the game.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Another thing to remember in the match up against Wolf is do NOT get grabbed, his pummel is extremely fast and his smashes are extremely strong, meaning if you get grabbed at 90%, you just refreshed all of his moves. ><
Diddy hump release footstool, and diddy hump jump are good against all spaceys when off the edge. A decent way to get this off on Wolf is when he's WoPing you, DI away then Diddy hump smash (the fB that goes further) you'll take damage, but get the grab off if done fast enough, now DI away from the stage with his body, and either footstool or jump off his head. Either way, he's gimped.
Also, don't dsmash his fsmash unless if he fsmashed from behind you, if he's spacing properly he'll end up behind you and JUST outside the range of the dsmash's first hit box.
Good for getting either off the edge at lower percents is dtilt > dtilt > SHfair
When you DO have them off the edge don't rely on your naners for edgeguarding, but rather focus on your spacing so you can send them right back off with either a quick grab or a smash. Pivotsmashing is a must here.
God I hate all of these match-ups.
Diddy hump release footstool, and diddy hump jump are good against all spaceys when off the edge. A decent way to get this off on Wolf is when he's WoPing you, DI away then Diddy hump smash (the fB that goes further) you'll take damage, but get the grab off if done fast enough, now DI away from the stage with his body, and either footstool or jump off his head. Either way, he's gimped.
Also, don't dsmash his fsmash unless if he fsmashed from behind you, if he's spacing properly he'll end up behind you and JUST outside the range of the dsmash's first hit box.
Good for getting either off the edge at lower percents is dtilt > dtilt > SHfair
When you DO have them off the edge don't rely on your naners for edgeguarding, but rather focus on your spacing so you can send them right back off with either a quick grab or a smash. Pivotsmashing is a must here.
God I hate all of these match-ups.
Fluke
Smash Journeyman
That is so true. I would have done the laser, or maybe a IAP (Phastasm jsut above the ground), careful to not land on the nanas.
And also glide distances: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172861
For falco, be wary of his long glide tosses. (only can do forward, and forward reverse though)
Leads up to a grab or ftilt can easy as Diddy. (grab is much more dangerous are early %)
Flamingo
Smash Lord
reflectors give the Lylats ownership of bananas, right?
Player-1
Smash Legend
Everything you just said is too situational for you to consistantly. Also, you can't DI the hump, only your opponent