How can you prefer Melee over Brawl?

[L ryusaki]

well i guess i agree with you but why cant people just wait and get the game legally without having to MOD IT

 

[ManCarrot]

Yeah, I would hope he wouldnt go as far as paying for a japanese wii just to get brawl early

You'd be suprised at the number of people who have. I didn't I have just enough patience to wait. But only enough for March 9th release. Being a Gamestop manager sure hurts when games you want so bad come in early and you cant touch them until release date.

 

[Riolu]

If you prefer a faster game and advanced techniques then Melee is probably better suited for you. I suppose you could make the game play in brawl faster through the options menu, but i'm guessing it's just not the same.

I don't think the game is all that slow, and I didn't use advanced techniques all that much so I prefer Brawl.

 

[6footninja]

You'd be suprised at the number of people who have. I didn't I have just enough patience to wait. But only enough for March 9th release. Being a Gamestop manager sure hurts when games you want so bad come in early and you cant touch them until release date.

Aw man I can imagine.

 

[Thino]

well i guess i agree with you but why cant people just wait and get the game legally without having to MOD IT

the hype.

 

[Sheik_Pwns]

Why you gotta call him a baka yarouz

 

[Brookman]

Jigglypuff's rest is never guaranteed unless:
* The opponent doesn't DI an Up-tilt
* The opponent doesn't DI an Up-tilt/Upthrow or they're a fastfaller and have pretty much 0% of damage at the time

This is not a game mechanic problem, it's a character problem (character counterpicks). Not everyone gets gimped by Jigglypuff (or she'd be God Tier). However, fastfallers are easily gimped by her. At the same time, Fox and Falco are incredibly hard matchups for her, especially in NTSC (stronger Upsmash and more potent Dair). So it's not even really a character counterpick, it's just easier to gimp Fox and Falco with Jigglypuff than certain other characters but then again, they are easily gimped by pretty much everyone.

On the other hand, they're the Top Tiers of Melee, unchallenged and unrivaled and can easily gimp everyone in turn.

It's an uphill battle for her unless her opponents screw up. She's got a limited grandrange and the Fastfallers are among the hardest to grab because of how fast and safe they are. If Jiggz gets a grab in, she deserves a rest (pretty much).

You missed the point. I never claimed that rest was ever guarnteed and I never claimed jigglypuff countered anyone. To say that the only way to get rest is through up tilt/throw is...uneducated. Did you watch the match I posted? Or any other matches of Mango's Puff? Tech chase rests, up air to rest, tap a reset rest, pound rest. Sure, you can "DI" but you don't see people avoiding the rest combos too much these days do you? I guess Mango is just really, REALLY lucky.

You say "unless her opponent screws up" as if people don't make mistakes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xTnHEktCI&feature=related

Now...I think that we're talking about different characters here Yuna. You seem to be fixated on the tier list while I'm talking about actual players using the characters. To say that the top tier characters are uncomparably superior is silly.

The thing about Puff is that she can gimp most characters from anywhere on the stage with rest, and she has a pretty solid edge guarding game to boot*. Characters like fox and marth need to get you off the stage before they can conceivably gimp you. The fact that Puff has the potential to rest you at any time sets her apart (note: I'm not saying she is 3 goods)

Of course, with marth's f smash and fox's up smash they don't NEED to gimp...but johns

M2K vs. Mango; SCC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZxz1YhuA0
M2K vs. Mango; Pound 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZxz1YhuA0

Do you see the difference in Mango's play style from SCC to Pound3?

At SCC Mango plays very timidly, it looks like he's afraid of being hit, and just tries to out space. But like you said, Puff has limited range, so that doesn't really work against marth. Yet, everytime he gets hit he retreats and tries to break through m2k's defense again.

At Pound3 Mango was RELENTLESS. Getting inside marth's sword, crouch canceling and trading hits with the weaker part. The grab that led to the second kill was fantastic, his edge guarding was also trickier and a lot more aggressive. Note 1:06 and 1:37: His F smash at 1:50 was great.

 

[Tanzz]

No one liked Sunshine over 64 period.

Horrible, horrible example.

I can honestly say that I liked sunshine better than 64... and yes I have played through them both multiple times.

But that really doesn't have anything to do with this topic, so:

True, the game isn't technically out in America yet, but that doesn't mean its potential for competitiveness, and Brawl's possibily of sucking shouldn't be speculated on.

I'd say this is actually an important topic, and I'm enjoying reading people's posts (from both sides) that are actually intellegent.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

Ive seen some people make post over the internet saying they've played Brawl and switched back to Melee. I haven't played Brawl yet either, still, its hard for me to comprehend that =(. Though, ive been excited for this game for months.

EDIT: No, to all of you people inferring, im not simple minded. Im simply stating that I personally prefer Brawl over Melee seeing as Brawl does improve on it quite a bit. Enough for me to not ***** about small things

EDIT 2: Also, I AM NOT A BRAWL PARADER. My question is WHY would your prefer melee over brawl. Im not saying its a bad decision, im saying its hard for me to comprehend. I was looking for enlightenment and all I got was more Paraders and idiots acting like I was insulting them. Thus, if you cant answer a simple question as to "why?" and all you can say is how you dont see why I dont understand it. Then gtfo. Your no help

because it's their opinion....it's as simple as that....everyone has different tastes after all.

 

[Fatmanonice]

There are already a few things that I liked in Melee but are missing in Brawl:

1. Bonuses (Really, trying to get them all added a ton of replay value to the 1 player modes.)

2. Character specific target tests (I don't like how it's uniform for every character and how there are only five different variations. Also, from footage I've, they're all laughably easy anyways.)

3. Adventure mode's replay value (I can't see myself going through the SSE 100% more then twice.)

Because of these factors, I think Brawl will have less replay value for me then Melee. Don't get me wrong, I played Melee on a regular basis for about 5 years so Brawl's will be at least 3. Also, because I'm sure someone will comment on, online play gets boring for me really quickly and I usually don't play it enthusastically for more then a couple of months for particular games.

 

[INs4niTY-]

well the online aspect of brawl shatters the wavedash even tho im one of those people who used to use it.
I dont mind the change ^^

 

[Sliq]

Jigglypuff's rest is never guaranteed unless:
* The opponent doesn't DI an Up-tilt
* The opponent doesn't DI an Up-tilt/Upthrow or they're a fastfaller and have pretty much 0% of damage at the time

This is not a game mechanic problem, it's a character problem (character counterpicks). Not everyone gets gimped by Jigglypuff (or she'd be God Tier). However, fastfallers are easily gimped by her. At the same time, Fox and Falco are incredibly hard matchups for her, especially in NTSC (stronger Upsmash and more potent Dair). So it's not even really a character counterpick, it's just easier to gimp Fox and Falco with Jigglypuff than certain other characters but then again, they are easily gimped by pretty much everyone.

On the other hand, they're the Top Tiers of Melee, unchallenged and unrivaled and can easily gimp everyone in turn.

It's an uphill battle for her unless her opponents screw up. She's got a limited grandrange and the Fastfallers are among the hardest to grab because of how fast and safe they are. If Jiggz gets a grab in, she deserves a rest (pretty much).

I agree 100% with this post.

You missed the point. I never claimed that rest was ever guarnteed and I never claimed jigglypuff countered anyone. To say that the only way to get rest is through up tilt/throw is...uneducated. Did you watch the match I posted? Or any other matches of Mango's Puff? Tech chase rests, up air to rest, tap a reset rest, pound rest. Sure, you can "DI" but you don't see people avoiding the rest combos too much these days do you? I guess Mango is just really, REALLY lucky.

You say "unless her opponent screws up" as if people don't make mistakes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xTnHEktCI&feature=related

Now...I think that we're talking about different characters here Yuna. You seem to be fixated on the tier list while I'm talking about actual players using the characters. To say that the top tier characters are uncomparably superior is silly.

The thing about Puff is that she can gimp most characters from anywhere on the stage with rest, and she has a pretty solid edge guarding game to boot*. Characters like fox and marth need to get you off the stage before they can conceivably gimp you. The fact that Puff has the potential to rest you at any time sets her apart (note: I'm not saying she is 3 goods)


M2K vs. Mango; SCC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZxz1YhuA0
M2K vs. Mango; Pound 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZxz1YhuA0

Do you see the difference in Mango's play style from SCC to Pound3?

At SCC Mango plays very timidly, it looks like he's afraid of being hit, and just tries to out space. But like you said, Puff has limited range, so that doesn't really work against marth. Yet, everytime he gets hit he retreats and tries to break through m2k's defense again.

At Pound3 Mango was RELENTLESS. Getting inside marth's sword, crouch canceling and trading hits with the weaker part. The grab that led to the second kill was fantastic, his edge guarding was also trickier and a lot more aggressive. Note 1:06 and 1:37: His F smash at 1:50 was great.

You could've picked much better arguments for gimping being bad over Jigglypuff's rest.

The move has a **** ton of knock back, and a **** ton of lag.

It has an extremely small hitbox, and while it comes out on frame 1, it lasts for 1 frame, and then you have 119 frames of cool down time. That's 2 seconds of helplessness. A SMART player would track their percents, and DI accordingly (down for mid-high damage, up for low). Then they come back and get a free hit, which can ultimately lead to Jigg's death, considering you dies at low percents.

Furthermore, there are a few frames in which at the start up of rest Jiggs is invulnerable, which is a blessing and a curse, considering it allows you to escape danger, but also prevents inadvertant tap moves from waking you up, leaving you reeling for the big hurt.

tl;dr

Rest comes out on frame 1 and lasts for only 1 frame

2 seconds of wind down time

Small hitbox

Small amount of invulnerability frames

Seriously, rest is hardly a gimp.

 

[Rampage]

Why you ask? Well the answer is simple.

Brawl is slow. Melee is fast paced. More people prefer faster paced things because slow is boring.

/thread

 

[Brookman]

Seriously, rest is hardly a gimp.

Ok .

Mango is just phenominally lucky and m2k was playing badly I guess.

 

[KidArtist]

easy, they are still stuck in melee mode. it really is that simple. they cant fathom a game without their fancy tricks and melee physics.(i'm obviously not a noob for anyone dumb enough to think so. ive been in the competitive game since '05, but im ready to leave and explore a new game) I for one love melee, but am readily able to move on to brawl. I've only really played brawl for two LONG sessions, and i love it and im hooked. im so ready to move on and start a whole new journey with a whole new game. give them time. they will all move on to brawl....peace

-hiro

Well said friend, well said.

 

[twdfx]

Simple.

To me, brawl is just less fun.

It feels dumbed down.

Also, people who just cite L canceling and wavedashing as the reason anyone would prefer melee over brawl are ******** and talking out of their *****.

Recovery is too easy. The game doesn't feel dangerous. The reduction in speed makes it less exciting. People are too floaty, which hurts comboability greatly. I like combos and fast paced gameplay. Brawl offers less opportunity for combos and slower paced gameplay. It all feels like it was designed for the casual noob to feel good about not dying in 10 seconds. It has less depth than melee. It's just not as fun. It feels as if the gameplay is stuck in between melee and smash 64, in that brawl is the first step up from 64, and melee is the next step up from brawl.

It does not feel improved with respect to gameplay, and the gameplay is the most important thing about the game.

Anyone who maintains that it's just a matter of time until everyone moves on to brawl is simply wrong. This would be a good argument if brawl had better gameplay and was a step up on melee, which it isn't. It's a step down and to the side. Playing a game just because it's new is stupid if you don't have as much fun with it.

 

[Yuna]

You missed the point. I never claimed that rest was ever guarnteed and I never claimed jigglypuff countered anyone. To say that the only way to get rest is through up tilt/throw is...uneducated. Did you watch the match I posted? Or any other matches of Mango's Puff? Tech chase rests, up air to rest, tap a reset rest, pound rest. Sure, you can "DI" but you don't see people avoiding the rest combos too much these days do you? I guess Mango is just really, REALLY lucky.

But that's not guaranteed. That's not even comboing. That's, you know, tech chasing. It's like saying everything that isn't really slow and strong is a gimp because you can tech chase with most moves!

All rest combos are also extremely situational and only work at 0-10% unless your opponent is a fastfaller. Most of the time, the opponent can even wiggle into an airdodge or Nair/Bair/Fair/Dair or whatever.

Rest isn't some amazing move that wins tournaments. Because before Mango, how many Jigglypuffs have won major tournaments, eh?

Human players aren't perfect, they'll make mistakes. And when they do, different characters have different potentials to take advantage of said mistakes. One mistake might lead to a rest if you're facing Jiggz, sure. But if it's so easy and it's such a gimp move, then how come people aren't getting 4-stock rested more? And how come Mango's the first Jiggz I've heard about ever winning a major US tournament? And I've been around for years (though I might've missed the results of a few).

You say "unless her opponent screws up" as if people don't make mistakes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xTnHEktCI&feature=related

So? If you play a fastfaller against Jigglypuff, you better DI everything or you die. That's the problem with playing fastfallers against Jiggz. If you don't mess up like that too much, you will win because Jiggz has an uphill battle in those matchups. And the fastfallers are incredibly hard to grab in the first place.

Now...I think that we're talking about different characters here Yuna. You seem to be fixated on the tier list while I'm talking about actual players using the characters. To say that the top tier characters are uncomparably superior is silly.

The Top tiers are superior to Jiggz... especially against Jiggz. Let's see... Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik... all matchups that are uphill battles (if only just slightly) for Jiggz.

The thing about Puff is that she can gimp most characters from anywhere on the stage with rest, and she has a pretty solid edge guarding game to boot*. Characters like fox and marth need to get you off the stage before they can conceivably gimp you. The fact that Puff has the potential to rest you at any time sets her apart (note: I'm not saying she is 3 goods)

So? Peach can gimp anyone who screws up and CC:es her Dsmash. If people just plain do not know how to play against Jiggz and are easily gimped by her, they deserve to get rested.

Don't roll through her, don't roll from the edge, don't get techchased with rest too much (because, really, she's not even that fast a dasher!), don't dashattack her, ever, unless she's in the air, DI anything that might lead to a rest, yes, it's a lot to keep track of. But that's what fighting games are all about!

Puff does not have the potential to rest you at any time. What game are you playing?

Of course, with marth's f smash and fox's up smash they don't NEED to gimp...but johns

Marth can Fsmash you at any time, even when you're approaching him. Jiggz can't rest you if you're fairing her from afar.

M2K vs. Mango; SCC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZxz1YhuA0
M2K vs. Mango; Pound 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZxz1YhuA0

Yes, and? M2K played badly or Mango just played well. Your point being? Taj has won against reputed Fox players as Mewtwo. Wow, I gues Mewtwo gimps Fox!

Mango just happens to currently be one of the best players in the United States. Of course he can win against M2K!

At SCC Mango plays very timidly, it looks like he's afraid of being hit, and just tries to out space. But like you said, Puff has limited range, so that doesn't really work against marth. Yet, everytime he gets hit he retreats and tries to break through m2k's defense again.

Wow! How surprising! Mango became better. He learned how to better play as Jiggz! Horrible, horrible!

At Pound3 Mango was RELENTLESS. Getting inside marth's sword, crouch canceling and trading hits with the weaker part. The grab that led to the second kill was fantastic, his edge guarding was also trickier and a lot more aggressive. Note 1:06 and 1:37: His F smash at 1:50 was great.

That's why you keep from getting CC:ed by Jiggz. It's like getting CC:ed by Peach or Samus, only worse. You have to play smarter against certain characters. It does in no way mean they're overpowered by default!

How horrible that some peopel screw up against Jiggz! Well they screwed up! They're just bad players or they had a bad day or made some poor decisions! Have you played against good Jiggz? Like, a lot?

Armada is currently one of the best players in Europe (he plays Peach). In fact, he got, like, 4th (IIRC) at Epita 2, Europe's latest large tournament (last week). My Peach isn't really on his level. But he still gets gimped by Jigglypuffs and loses to them... sometimes pretty badly.

Guess what? I don't. I rarely ever get rested as Peach, I don't fall for the same things as Armada, I do not make the same mistakes, I do not get gimped. Sometimes, I'll screw up, yes, but not in any way on the same scale as Armada. Why? Because I have more experience and have played Jiggz a ****load more than he has. In fact, my boyfriend is #1 in the UK and mained Jiggz for years.

Does that mean Armada is **** or that Jiggz is overpowered? No, because Armada places way higher than I do, yet I play way better than him against Jiggz. Now go away.

 

[Sci Fi Samurai]

I'm sure there are many reasons, but the ones I come across the most in support of Melee include wave dashing and easier edge guarding. Neither strategy I find very fun or entertaining, so I won't miss it.

The other reason I cam across is that the more realistic aerial physics in Melee. Brawl seems to be returning to the 'moon gravity' physics that were in SB, also which I prefer. :D

On the whole Brawl seems to be doing a lot of things I would have liked to have seen Melee do, so I won't be going back.

 

[Skler]

Horrible, horrible example.

No one liked Sunshine over 64 period.

And in all seriousness, I enjoyed 64 above Galaxies.

The same goes with Zelda: OOT was better than MM and TP.

Horrible, horrible example.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to this. Congratulations maybe? I brought up Mario64 and Sunshine because very few people liked sunshine more than 64, how is it a terrible example if it proves my point that people can like older games more than newer games?


Nobody appreciates what Brookman is saying, he was pointed out that Melee is all about gimping. Kills from hitting the opponent to the blast zones are not as common as kills from edgeguarding unless you have ******** vertical KO power like Fox and Pika. Brawl is different in the sense that edgeguarding hardly exists, kills below 100 are almost impossible and you HAVE to hit them to the blast zones unless they play a character with a ****ty recovery (Link, Olimar, etc).

Brookman was right, you guys are arguing over stupid ****. He wasn't saying Brawl is deep or anything, he just said it was different. Brawl is not as deep as Melee and never will be, just ask Scar (if you don't know who he is, he's the one who killed Mufasa with amazing edgeguarding). Competitive players (all of them, not just the Melee vets) will like Melee more in the end, they may like Brawl until they figure out how shallow it is compared to Melee (I know I'll play plenty of Brawl until I get bored out of my mind). We will try to break brawl as best as we can, but unless something is found Brawl's competitive scene will be boring and ****ty.

 

[Brookman]

Way to Represent, Sky.

 

[Mew2King]

what a bad comparison, i was playing really badly at pound when i had to fight him, i think everyone watching could tell

you can't beat marths melee defenses if he's not making mistakes, instead of just looking at one player look at both of them






also not that anyone cares, here's my list

Halo PC (1) > Halo 2 without standby > Halo 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halo 2 with standby
SSBM > SSB64 > SSBB
SM64 (it was too good for it's time) > Galaxy > Sunshine
Super Metroid = Metroid Prime 1 > rest

 

[Flow Wolf]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to this. Congratulations maybe? I brought up Mario64 and Sunshine because very few people liked sunshine more than 64, how is it a terrible example if it proves my point that people can like older games more than newer games?


Nobody appreciates what Brookman is saying, he was pointed out that Melee is all about gimping. Kills from hitting the opponent to the blast zones are not as common as kills from edgeguarding unless you have ******** vertical KO power like Fox and Pika. Brawl is different in the sense that edgeguarding hardly exists, kills below 100 are almost impossible and you HAVE to hit them to the blast zones unless they play a character with a ****ty recovery (Link, Olimar, etc).

Brookman was right, you guys are arguing over stupid ****. He wasn't saying Brawl is deep or anything, he just said it was different. Brawl is not as deep as Melee and never will be, just ask Scar (if you don't know who he is, he's the one who killed Mufasa with amazing edgeguarding). Competitive players (all of them, not just the Melee vets) will like Melee more in the end, they may like Brawl until they figure out how shallow it is compared to Melee (I know I'll play plenty of Brawl until I get bored out of my mind). We will try to break brawl as best as we can, but unless something is found Brawl's competitive scene will be boring and ****ty.

Did people not think similar thoughts about Melee at first?

 

[Sliq]

Did people not think similar thoughts about Melee at first?

No, because massive AT's weren't known about in 64, but then were removed in Melee.

Melee expanded everything from 64. Brawl has removed aspects, and changed others, but ultimately only added more characters and stages, while removing a lot of gameplay elements, and not replacing them with new ****.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to this. Congratulations maybe? I brought up Mario64 and Sunshine because very few people liked sunshine more than 64, how is it a terrible example if it proves my point that people can like older games more than newer games?


Nobody appreciates what Brookman is saying, he was pointed out that Melee is all about gimping. Kills from hitting the opponent to the blast zones are not as common as kills from edgeguarding unless you have ******** vertical KO power like Fox and Pika. Brawl is different in the sense that edgeguarding hardly exists, kills below 100 are almost impossible and you HAVE to hit them to the blast zones unless they play a character with a ****ty recovery (Link, Olimar, etc).

Brookman was right, you guys are arguing over stupid ****. He wasn't saying Brawl is deep or anything, he just said it was different. Brawl is not as deep as Melee and never will be, just ask Scar (if you don't know who he is, he's the one who killed Mufasa with amazing edgeguarding). Competitive players (all of them, not just the Melee vets) will like Melee more in the end, they may like Brawl until they figure out how shallow it is compared to Melee (I know I'll play plenty of Brawl until I get bored out of my mind). We will try to break brawl as best as we can, but unless something is found Brawl's competitive scene will be boring and ****ty.

In his post, he seemed pretty much against gimping, when it is one of the best things about Melee; you can get a KO with someone at almost no damage. This is what differs Smash from other fighting games.

Without edgeguarding and gimping, Smash loses some of the uniqueness that sets it apart, which is a shame, imo.

 

[Flow Wolf]

No, because massive AT's weren't known about in 64, but then were removed in Melee.

Melee expanded everything from 64. Brawl has removed aspects, and changed others, but ultimately only added more characters and stages, while removing a lot of gameplay elements, and not replacing them with new ****.

Ahh... kainotophobia ...

 

[Sliq]

Not surprising someone from Louisiana posted something ********.

I'm not afraid of change, ****er. I've seen Brawl; people have played Brawl. It's isn't tat I'm afraid of the changes; I KNOW WHAT THE CHANGES ARE.

They changed it and made it worse. If they had changed EVERYTHING, but made it better, then that would be outstanding, but they didn't.

Ahh...ad hominem argument...

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Brawl is not as deep as Melee and never will be, just ask Scar (if you don't know who he is, he's the one who killed Mufasa with amazing edgeguarding).

I dunno, that quote was made of so much win I think I want that in my sig.