How Can We Save Brawl?

[clydeaker]

We could always just ban Meta Knight...
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOF-sYklujU.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...smash_4_were_brawl/?ref=share&ref_source=link

 

[ShadowKing]

nah i would suggest finding the weakness in the masked kirby my pokemon trainer is a good counter

 

[TheJolteon]

Maybe if Brawl could come back we spice it up with free for all? Kind of a weird idea but its how the game was supposed to be played.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Why hasn't anybody made a mod for SSBB balancing the characters yet? It's been out for so long and yet the only mod like that is Project M which is just Melee 2.0.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's my suggestions:

• Ban Meta Knight and the Ice Climbers. These two have made the meta so toxic as it progressed, whenever somebody is asked why they hate competitive Brawl these two are some of the most brought up reasons. Meta Knight beats all but two characters in the entire cast and the ICs can 0-death everyone. These are ostensibly unfair advantages, and with Meta Knight being so overly dominant the scene just got stale, boring and uninteresting. Nobody wants to watch a top 8 full of Meta Knights.
• More low-tier tournaments. All the low tiers in Brawl (Bowser, Ganon, Zelda, Mario, Lucas, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon etc.) were incredibly underdeveloped thanks to the aforementioned dominance of Meta Knight and other top tiers, and their miscellaneous flaws didn't help either. Though with that said, if we saw more low or bottom tier characters get exclusive exposure, I feel like it'd be very interesting to see how they play out. Especially with their dedicated players never really getting much of a chance with them while Brawl was still thriving.
• Include Brawl in the rosters of more locals and regionals. Brawl has such little attention right now because barely anybody is willing to host the game. I see places hosting every Smash game including Project M but with no Brawl whatsoever. It's really heartbreaking. Hell, even when Xanadu did a Brawl tournament a couple months ago they didn't bother to upload the matches for whatever reason. It would've been awesome to see too considering the modified ruleset they used. If more locals started hosting Brawl as a side event with said ruleset, it could possibly build up to the point of it going to regionals and hopefully nationals once again outside Apex and Smash Con.
• Ban the grab release infinite on Ness and Lucas. These two are legit good characters brought down by an ungodly stupid flaw in the game's coding, there's no reason why chaingrabs should be allowed on them. Small complaint but I really would love if they disallowed this.

Why hasn't anybody made a mod for SSBB balancing the characters yet? It's been out for so long and yet the only mod like that is Project M which is just Melee 2.0.

There was Balanced Brawl, but it sadly never really got a scene of its own and the mod died off quietly. Sad considering I loved the design philosophy it had.

 

[Tocaraca2]

There was Balanced Brawl, but it sadly never really got a scene of its own and the mod died off quietly. Sad considering I loved the design philosophy it had.

That seems pretty cool but it's not just balancing the characters, it's changing lots of other stuff.
What they need to do is just make Meta Knight have worse frame data and range, and buff the low tiers (for example, making Link's Up B and Z-Air cover more distance like in Sm4sh), also limit chain grabbing so you can only do it 3 times in a row, then have to wait a couple of seconds before being able to grab again.

 

[Deleted member]

That seems pretty cool but it's not just balancing the characters, it's changing lots of other stuff.
What they need to do is just make Meta Knight have worse frame data and range, and buff the low tiers (for example, making Link's Up B and Z-Air cover more distance like in Sm4sh), also limit chain grabbing so you can only do it 3 times in a row, then have to wait a couple of seconds before being able to grab again.

Meta Knight's range wasn't the reason he was ridiculous to deal with. It was because almost all of his attacks had transcendent priority, could easily be linked into each other and he could just spam Mach Tornado for days to rack up damage. If Meta Knight's range was one of his biggest reasons why he was OP, then he'd be just as bad in Project M when he has all his Brawl range but has miscellaneous changes to keep him balanced. I do agree about the low tiers and chain grabbing though.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Meta Knight's range wasn't the reason he was ridiculous to deal with. It was because almost all of his attacks had transcendent priority, could easily be linked into each other and he could just spam Mach Tornado for days to rack up damage. If Meta Knight's range was one of his biggest reasons why he was OP, then he'd be just as bad in Project M when he has all his Brawl range but has miscellaneous changes to keep him balanced. I do agree about the low tiers and chain grabbing though.

Meta Knight's range COMBINED with the other factors makes him OP, if he didn't have as much range he would be more like Sm4sh Meta Knight but still OP.
What he needs is:
Worse frame data. His Up Air should have much more end lag, right now it's quicker than any move seen in any Smash game except maybe Fox's Shine from Melee. His Shuttle Loop does not deserve to have super armour AND come out of Frame 1, that's just ridiculous. And it has a ton of kill power as well. Mach Tornado should be like the Sm4sh version, enough said. Drill Rush is actually kinda **** in Brawl, except for recovery and occasionally KOing people off the side, however lots of his other moves will do that better.
Overall I think that Sm4sh Meta Knight would be fine in Brawl except without the massive range nerf and gliding would still exist. He would probably be really close to Marth tier.

 

[sijon]

Just found this thread and i'm bored so I will share my opinion.

I feel like the only reason Brawl will die will be because of the lack of t

Meta Knight's range COMBINED with the other factors makes him OP, if he didn't have as much range he would be more like Sm4sh Meta Knight but still OP.
What he needs is:
Worse frame data. His Up Air should have much more end lag, right now it's quicker than any move seen in any Smash game except maybe Fox's Shine from Melee. His Shuttle Loop does not deserve to have super armour AND come out of Frame 1, that's just ridiculous. And it has a ton of kill power as well. Mach Tornado should be like the Sm4sh version, enough said. Drill Rush is actually kinda **** in Brawl, except for recovery and occasionally KOing people off the side, however lots of his other moves will do that better.
Overall I think that Sm4sh Meta Knight would be fine in Brawl except without the massive range nerf and gliding would still exist. He would probably be really close to Marth tier.

Ok so I was bored and found this thread, so I shall share my opinion.

@Feelicks and Tocaraca2 I like the idea of a mod for Brawl, making it balanced, fresh etc... But even if there was a Brawl mod like this, why should anyone play it? As we all know, Project M is the superior Brawl mod among them all. I don't think there is a single mod that can compare to it, plus everyone would be playing Project M instead. Why? Because it made everyone happy by putting the good from all Smash games into one (Some examples- Melee: Wavedashing, L-canceling and Brawl: RAR, Dacus, Roster, music etc)

But why don't all Melee players move onto Project M you might ask. The answer to this is because of the dedication put into the game. Most top melee players never gave up on their game, even with the release of Brawl and Smash 4. They stuck to the game they loved and pushed through everything in their way. People used to think Link was OP in Melee with his up-b. But it wasn't until a bit later that people discovered the many flaws of Link, thus developing the meta. Since Link was considered "trash" now, people stopped using him and moved on to characters that were considered much better. But this didn't stop Link mains from switching characters. Instead it gave them the initiative and motivation to step up their game with link. They knew their character had potential and never gave up.

This motivation made some Link players the way they are today. Top Link players. Although they do not always do well in tournament, this made them want to experiment even more, even up to now. The meta of Melee is not yet finished changing. There is still plenty more to discover.

We can save Brawl by continuing to experiment and push through everything, be it Metaknight or Ice Climbers, whatever. If we just make a balanced brawl mod, this shows that you have given up on the game. Be like the melee players who never gave up. Don't just think of a mod to balance everything. If Metaknights range is a problem, you experiment and find ways around that. This is easier said then done, but that's why you need dedication. If Brawl is the game you love, continue to do what you can to develop the meta. Thank you.

EDIT: Never thought people would read this and like it. But I will take that! :D

 

[sijon]

[QUOTE="TOGOpuff, post: 17099800, member: 246830" The question shouldn't be if brawl would live or die. The game was never alive. The real question is wheter we, as a community, want to dedicate ourselves enough to keep it living, and that my friends, that is up to us.[/QUOTE]

Probably the most inspiring thing I have ever read. Makes we want to dedicate myself to not just Brawl, but all Smash games in general.

Messed up the quote thing, but you get my point

 

[Tocaraca2]

sijon
Not everybody likes Melee, and therefore will not like Project M. I haven't even played Project M and I already hate it, due to loads of good things from Brawl being completely changed and destroyed in my eyes (for example, reverting almost all of Falco's moves back to their cloned versions), and also you can't grab ledges from behind.
EDIT: Also I think that as people are choosing to play top tiers, the game is getting very boring and that is why people hate the game. Watch something like Link vs Captain Falcon and you'll see how amazing Brawl can be with skilled players.

 

[sijon]

sijon
Not everybody likes Melee, and therefore will not like Project M. I haven't even played Project M and I already hate it, due to loads of good things from Brawl being completely changed and destroyed in my eyes (for example, reverting almost all of Falco's moves back to their cloned versions), and also you can't grab ledges from behind.
EDIT: Also I think that as people are choosing to play top tiers, the game is getting very boring and that is why people hate the game. Watch something like Link vs Captain Falcon and you'll see how amazing Brawl can be with skilled players.

I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about Project M. I was saying that if there was a to be a Brawl mod made that balances the game, it would never really be successful. There were plenty of mods like these already such as Brawl+, Brawl- and Balanced Brawl. However none of them were successful because they provided nothing new people should look forward to (except for maybe Brawl- which is really fun. It also looks like people are still interested in it and are still playing it now) Project M was the answer to this. It had so much work and detail put into it, it almost didn't even feel like a mod anymore. It was in some kind of way, it's own game because of how unique it was. Project M appealed to almost all players, even Brawl players.

I can understand why you don't like it, and I too felt the same way before. But I was curious. What made people like this game so much? This is what I wanted to figure out. And I sure did figure it out. It was so fun! Something about it felt fresh and new. You just need to try it. Although there are things such as keeping the same Melee moveset for Falco,(which I personally don't like to much myself), these are things one must get used to. When I first played it, I was horrible. But with some practice I improved. all that is needed is the time and effort to do so. Try it. It's not hard to get, you don't even need to hack you wii. I guarantee you will find something to love about it.

I notice how you seem to despise watching or playing top tiers (correct me if i'm wrong.) I'm not quite sure you have seen the right matches haha! Even top tier matches can be entertaining, it just sometimes depends on who is playing and what the matchup is. An example of a entertaining (at least in my eyes) top tier match is here (KTAR 8 - Anti vs Mr.R - SSBB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0nXNzqwdkY Mr.R <3

Now that wasn't too bad for a top tier match. As for your comment on Link vs Captain Falcon, I hope you are not talking about Izaw's Link vs Haze's Captain Falcon. I'm not saying that i'm better than the players or know more, because they are indeed skilled players, it's just that these particular players are very overrated. They almost never go to tournaments, and if they do, do not place the best. Here is a match where the players were some of the best of their characters, in their time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyu4nJIca6I Anyway, I have said enough. I just wanted to confirm my opinion.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about Project M. I was saying that if there was a to be a Brawl mod made that balances the game, it would never really be successful. There were plenty of mods like these already such as Brawl+, Brawl- and Balanced Brawl. However none of them were successful because they provided nothing new people should look forward to (except for maybe Brawl- which is really fun. It also looks like people are still interested in it and are still playing it now) Project M was the answer to this. It had so much work and detail put into it, it almost didn't even feel like a mod anymore. It was in some kind of way, it's own game because of how unique it was. Project M appealed to almost all players, even Brawl players.

I can understand why you don't like it, and I too felt the same way before. But I was curious. What made people like this game so much? This is what I wanted to figure out. And I sure did figure it out. It was so fun! Something about it felt fresh and new. You just need to try it. Although there are things such as keeping the same Melee moveset for Falco,(which I personally don't like to much myself), these are things one must get used to. When I first played it, I was horrible. But with some practice I improved. all that is needed is the time and effort to do so. Try it. It's not hard to get, you don't even need to hack you wii. I guarantee you will find something to love about it.

I notice how you seem to despise watching or playing top tiers (correct me if i'm wrong.) I'm not quite sure you have seen the right matches haha! Even top tier matches can be entertaining, it just sometimes depends on who is playing and what the matchup is. An example of a entertaining (at least in my eyes) top tier match is here (KTAR 8 - Anti vs Mr.R - SSBB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0nXNzqwdkY Mr.R <3

Now that wasn't too bad for a top tier match. As for your comment on Link vs Captain Falcon, I hope you are not talking about Izaw's Link vs Haze's Captain Falcon. I'm not saying that i'm better than the players or know more, because they are indeed skilled players, it's just that these particular players are very overrated. They almost never go to tournaments, and if they do, do not place the best. Here is a match where the players were some of the best of their characters, in their time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyu4nJIca6I Anyway, I have said enough. I just wanted to confirm my opinion.

Izaw vs Haze is very enjoyable to watch, 'they don't go to tournaments much' is not a valid reason as to why it's not good. Even if they don't do well in tournaments the matches between them are fun.

 

[Shoes Magoo]

"How can we save Brawl"
Also if anyone is looking to brawl you know where to find me (Private message or just quote one of my comments somewhere).

Brawl isn't going to return without starting somewhere and that place is Wi-Fi where there are still power hungry individuals who still want to develop the Brawl meta-game and enjoy themselves. Thanks.

Came here to ask the question: Does anyone still Brawl online and is there a resource for finding them? I have yet to move on to Smash4 due to my overwhelming disappointment in the new roster, but I would still play Brawl on the regular if there were some real-life human beings to play against.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Came here to ask the question: Does anyone still Brawl online and is there a resource for finding them? I have yet to move on to Smash4 due to my overwhelming disappointment in the new roster, but I would still play Brawl on the regular if there were some real-life human beings to play against.

Me?

 

[Omar_25]

Came here to ask the question: Does anyone still Brawl online and is there a resource for finding them? I have yet to move on to Smash4 due to my overwhelming disappointment in the new roster, but I would still play Brawl on the regular if there were some real-life human beings to play against.

Yes, there is definitely a few of us left. The best way to find people would be to reach out to other people that still play Brawl through Wiimmfi (through methods such as messaging, writing on their wall, etc) and visiting the matchmaking thread (which you can find here).

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Came here to ask the question: Does anyone still Brawl online and is there a resource for finding them? I have yet to move on to Smash4 due to my overwhelming disappointment in the new roster, but I would still play Brawl on the regular if there were some real-life human beings to play against.

Yes, you are not alone in this range of frustration towards Smash-4 disappointment entities man. Yes, I indeed brawl and a few other individuals brawl as well. Though I'm always prepared to brawl (unless an emergency or life calls upon me or work) then I'm always prepared to brawl. Here's my Brawl code: 5074-0626-2224 just add my Brawl code and I shall return the favor. Thanks.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Sm4sh's roster is good if you count the unique characters (Mega Man, Shulk, Robin) but the game engine is a bit lazy compared to previous titles.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Sm4sh's roster is good if you count the unique characters (Mega Man, Shulk, Robin) but the game engine is a bit lazy compared to previous titles.

That actually is the only reason why I'll give the game 1% credit just from those characters (now if only someone could create them not mod them into Brawl to have the Brawl ratio outlook not Smash-4 ratio Hit-stun outlook). Also I can brawl now man if you're interested?

 

[Tocaraca2]

That actually is the only reason why I'll give the game 1% credit just from those characters (now if only someone could create them not mod them into Brawl to have the Brawl ratio outlook not Smash-4 ratio Hit-stun outlook). Also I can brawl now man if you're interested?

Oh wow I went to bed 5 minutes before you could play XD
Sm4sh does require a lot of skill to be played at a top level, but not as much as Melee or Brawl. Melee requires you to be really fast at a high level, and in Brawl you have to have amazing awareness. In Sm4sh you just have to space correctly and be good at landing combos. If Brawl was as fast as Sm4sh (or even Melee) it would be the best game.
EDIT: Never mind, I guess realised that Sm4sh has much more tech than Brawl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oBLDQlPkQk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRrqKUJ-5o
Oh and also, Ryu.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Oh wow I went to bed 5 minutes before you could play XD
Sm4sh does require a lot of skill to be played at a top level, but not as much as Melee or Brawl. Melee requires you to be really fast at a high level, and in Brawl you have to have amazing awareness. In Sm4sh you just have to space correctly and be good at landing combos. If Brawl was as fast as Sm4sh (or even Melee) it would be the best game.
EDIT: Never mind, I guess realised that Sm4sh has much more tech than Brawl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oBLDQlPkQk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRrqKUJ-5o
Oh and also, Ryu.

Sigh, Brawl has all those techniques and more such as Platform canceling, Shield drop canceling, Dacus/BDacus and many more. Smash-4 will never have more techniques or become more technical than Brawl it just wont, why? The creator of Smash-4 pacifically wrote he will try his hardest to patch anything new or "technical" to make the game as simplistic as possible.

 

[Shoes Magoo]

Glad to hear there are at least some left interested in Brawl. Spent a good chunk of yesterday getting characters unlocked on my replacement Wii so I wasn't able to get on, but I will be adding friend codes and posting mine by the close of the weekend.

On the roster, I have to say that they got it right with Mega Man, Little Mac, Pac Man, Bowser Jr., and Greninja. Ryu and Cloud as DLC are great. The Smash series was originally so awesome because it pitted classic Nintendo characters who were combat-oriented against each other in a completely different and unexpectred genre of game, that being the fighter. It was a dream game come to life, and it didn't pander to the very young gaming generation by including the newest Nintendo characters who had no business being in a fighting game (shameless marketing). Who wants to play as Duck Hunt, Rosalina, Palutena, Mii fighters, Villager, or effing Wii Fit Trainer? Who wanted a Pit clone and not one but two new Fire Emblem characters making for a gross over-representation of the series? Why keep Charizard when there are already soooo many Pokemon present? So many better choices exist - Alucard, Geno, Mallow, anyone from Chrono Trigger, Tails or Knuckles, Little Nemo, King K. Rool, and the list goes on. And what happened to Solid Snake? Licensing issues? Gah. Anyway, rant over.

 

[Deleted member]

Glad to hear there are at least some left interested in Brawl. Spent a good chunk of yesterday getting characters unlocked on my replacement Wii so I wasn't able to get on, but I will be adding friend codes and posting mine by the close of the weekend.

On the roster, I have to say that they got it right with Mega Man, Little Mac, Pac Man, Bowser Jr., and Greninja. Ryu and Cloud as DLC are great. The Smash series was originally so awesome because it pitted classic Nintendo characters who were combat-oriented against each other in a completely different and unexpectred genre of game, that being the fighter. It was a dream game come to life, and it didn't pander to the very young gaming generation by including the newest Nintendo characters who had no business being in a fighting game (shameless marketing). Who wants to play as Duck Hunt, Rosalina, Palutena, Mii fighters, Villager, or effing Wii Fit Trainer? Who wanted a Pit clone and not one but two new Fire Emblem characters making for a gross over-representation of the series? Why keep Charizard when there are already soooo many Pokemon present? So many better choices exist - Alucard, Geno, Mallow, anyone from Chrono Trigger, Tails or Knuckles, Little Nemo, King K. Rool, and the list goes on. And what happened to Solid Snake? Licensing issues? Gah. Anyway, rant over.

Damn, so much in this post.

Honestly, the anti-Smash 4 stigma in the Brawl boards is hilarious. At least I'm not trying to stay attached to a dead game. Brawl is a good game, but it has a hell of a lot of design issues. Tripping, ridiculously low hitstun, the superfluous imbalance between characters to the point where some characters are just straight up unusable in top level play, I could go on. Just because Brawl has more advanced tech doesn't make it the fundamentally better game.

On the topic of Smash 4's roster, Palutena and Rosalina not fit for fighting? Seriously? I guess by that logic characters such as Peach shouldn't be in Smash because they're oh so innocent.

 

[sijon]

Sigh, Brawl has all those techniques and more such as Platform canceling, Shield drop canceling, Dacus/BDacus and many more. Smash-4 will never have more techniques or become more technical than Brawl it just wont, why? The creator of Smash-4 pacifically wrote he will try his hardest to patch anything new or "technical" to make the game as simplistic as possible.

I admit that when I first tried out the game demo, then eventually played it with friends I was a bit disappointed. I didn't hate the game too much but then, months later all the existing techs in the game are patched. I don't get why Sakurai would do this. Is he trying to make the game as "friendly" as possible or in your words "simplistic". Look at all the things that were first considered broken in Melee and Brawl. The players knew it was broken so they found ways around by experimenting, developing the meta.

Almost 5 or months into the game (more or less, I could be wrong) Diddy kong is nerfed because he is "too good". He is indeed good but he was never exceptionally good such as characters like Fox in Melee and IC's and MK in Brawl. People just kept whining until they got the patch they wanted. How will you improve at the game or stay consistent at anything when you never know what technique or anything else such as your character will get patched. Sometimes I wish technology didn't advance too quickly. Back in the 64, Melee and Brawl days, we didn't have the technology to fix something. We did it ourselves,as a community.

I guess I don't really hate 4, I just won't nearly play it as competitively as previous titles. I feel as if every few months you need to find a new main. Probably gonna play the most basic characters Marth and Captain Falcon, as there is not too much to take away from them. But I wouldn't be surprised to see even the simplest characters ruined in the future.

 

[Deleted member]

I admit that when I first tried out the game demo, then eventually played it with friends I was a bit disappointed. I didn't hate the game too much but then, months later all the existing techs in the game are patched. I don't get why Sakurai would do this. Is he trying to make the game as "friendly" as possible or in your words "simplistic". Look at all the things that were first considered broken in Melee and Brawl. The players knew it was broken so they found ways around by experimenting, developing the meta.

Almost 5 or months into the game (more or less, I could be wrong) Diddy kong is nerfed because he is "too good". He is indeed good but he was never exceptionally good such as characters like Fox in Melee and IC's and MK in Brawl. People just kept whining until they got the patch they wanted. How will you improve at the game or stay consistent at anything when you never know what technique or anything else such as your character will get patched. Sometimes I wish technology didn't advance too quickly. Back in the 64, Melee and Brawl days, we didn't have the technology to fix something. We did it ourselves,as a community.

I guess I don't really hate 4, I just won't nearly play it as competitively as previous titles. I feel as if every few months you need to find a new main. Probably gonna play the most basic characters Marth and Captain Falcon, as there is not too much to take away from them. But I wouldn't be surprised to see even the simplest characters ruined in the future.

When a character like Diddy literally got free kill confirms off of a throw before he was nerfed, yes, he was exceptionally good. That and considering the fact he has incredible frame data, had great stage control and comboing ability he was one hell of a force to be reckoned with. If anything, I'm glad this game has much less of a jank factor compared to previous games. It's more polished and therefore makes it more enjoyable to play for me.

I don't even care about people complaining about "m-muh advanced techniques" because they aren't needed for Smash to be fun, they're more of a cherry on top. Smash 4 has dashdancing (which is hard but still), foxtrotting, platform bounce cancelling and perfect pivoting. Those are a mighty good amount of advanced techs right there. And Brawl's meta barely even changed over the six years it was alive because it all boiled down to "uh, does this character beat Meta Knight?", a ridiculous amount of characters had their metagame stagnant, like Mario, Link (like even Izaw of all people dropping him for Sheik), Pokemon Trainer, Lucas, Samus, I can go on.

 

[sijon]

Damn, so much in this post.

Honestly, the anti-Smash 4 stigma in the Brawl boards is hilarious. At least I'm not trying to stay attached to a dead game. Brawl is a good game, but it has a hell of a lot of design issues. Tripping, ridiculously low hitstun, the superfluous imbalance between characters to the point where some characters are just straight up unusable in top level play, I could go on. Just because Brawl has more advanced tech doesn't make it the fundamentally better game.

On the topic of Smash 4's roster, Palutena and Rosalina not fit for fighting? Seriously? I guess by that logic characters such as Peach shouldn't be in Smash because they're oh so innocent.

I agree with you on most of what you have written. Tripping is just stupid but there's nothing you can really do about it. If it really bothers you, there is always a simple code you can use (just google Brawl No Tripping Code and you should find something).

Incredibly low hitstun made the game unique. With this feature, players had to read their opponents reactions, then follow up/punish accordingly. If they tried anymore other than frame traps and reads or tried playing like Melee, they would get punished. I agree some characters seem almost impossible to use. To be honest, I had not clue how people played bowser, then I saw thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyb7BwVZP68 Seriously, how does a Bowser get to winners finals? Against Leon?

I guess anything is possible with dedication and skill, just like anything else. Just my opinions though, nothing to really be taken seriously.

When a character like Diddy literally got free kill confirms off of a throw before he was nerfed, yes, he was exceptionally good. That and considering the fact he has incredible frame data, had great stage control and comboing ability he was one hell of a force to be reckoned with. If anything, I'm glad this game has much less of a jank factor compared to previous games. It's more polished and therefore makes it more enjoyable to play for me.

I don't even care about people complaining about "m-muh advanced techniques" because they aren't needed for Smash to be fun, they're more of a cherry on top. Smash 4 has dashdancing (which is hard but still), foxtrotting, platform bounce cancelling and perfect pivoting. Those are a mighty good amount of advanced techs right there. And Brawl's meta barely even changed over the six years it was alive because it all boiled down to "uh, does this character beat Meta Knight?", a ridiculous amount of characters had their metagame stagnant, like Mario, Link (like even Izaw of all people dropping him for Sheik), Pokemon Trainer, Lucas, Samus, I can go on.

I agree mostly on some things you said. I just hope that the little that Smash 4 has and the plenty that was taken away from it, doesn't get bothered anymore. All the techs you listed may be patched in the future, you never know. From what it looks like there is nothing really broken as of now. The only reason for another nerf would just be Sakurais own doing (he clearly does not know what he is sometimes, or as it seems). Once again, just my thoughts.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree mostly on some things you said. I just hope that the little that Smash 4 has and the plenty that was taken away from it, doesn't get bothered anymore. All the techs you listed may be patched in the future, you never know. From what it looks like there is nothing really broken as of now. The only reason for another nerf would just be Sakurais own doing (he clearly does not know what he is sometimes, or as it seems). Once again, just my thoughts.

I doubt all of those would be patched out. The only advanced tech ever patched out of the game was DACUS. That was literally it. And I would have rather not had it stay in the game, some characters like , , and would be outright ridiculous with it. There was also Wectoring, but that was only a dumb glitch only exclusive to Wario.

 

[sijon]

I doubt all of those would be patched out. The only advanced tech ever patched out of the game was DACUS. That was literally it. And I would have rather not had it stay in the game, some characters like , , and would be outright ridiculous with it. There was also Wectoring, but that was only a dumb glitch only exclusive to Wario.

Lol I kinda wish they kept "wectoring". It made me want to main Wario because it looked so cool! xD

 

[CuRsE]

Brawl in my opinion wasn't all that great. In my opinion, all that it is good for is Project M.

Now before you brawl fanboys start rushing in, I can have my own opinion.
Brawl had several characters just stacked with power, specifically Meta Knight, and he was so good that he was banned from most tournaments. The trouble people went through to play brawl, all to see the competitive and fun scene was small and slow, was a complete waste of time. I do however, like most, have a big bias towards PM and Melee. So, that also comes into play. My poor Falco was slowed down, and his moves got changed. Poor, poor Falco. </3

Aside from such, those who did play Brawl competitively, it took little to no tech skill. It just took some projectiles and a move that sucked you in. The game itself was just a poor sequal to the smash bros. series, and a disappointment overall.

 

[Deleted member]

Brawl in my opinion wasn't all that great. In my opinion, all that it is good for is Project M.

Now before you brawl fanboys start rushing in, I can have my own opinion.
Brawl had several characters just stacked with power, specifically Meta Knight, and he was so good that he was banned from most tournaments. The trouble people went through to play brawl, all to see the competitive and fun scene was small and slow, was a complete waste of time. I do however, like most, have a big bias towards PM and Melee. So, that also comes into play. My poor Falco was slowed down, and his moves got changed. Poor, poor Falco. </3

Aside from such, those who did play Brawl competitively, it took little to no tech skill. It just took some projectiles and a move that sucked you in. The game itself was just a poor sequal to the smash bros. series, and a disappointment overall.

There was a time when Brawl was just as popular as Melee, but that came from it being a new Smash Bros. game and everybody jumping on the hype train if anything. Even Mew2King who initially hated Brawl ended up getting into the game later, but he's the one who started the entire Meta Knight bandwagon. ._.

Brawl isn't outright braindead though, but it's definitely easier to play than all the other games in the series, especially Melee and Project M. I'd even lump Smash 64 with those two considering it's deceptively high learning curve. It doesn't help when you have three characters () that practically body the entire cast.

I disagree with you on Falco tho. I actually like his Brawl moveset more than his Melee one. Do miss shine into dair, however.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I admit that when I first tried out the game demo, then eventually played it with friends I was a bit disappointed. I didn't hate the game too much but then, months later all the existing techs in the game are patched. I don't get why Sakurai would do this. Is he trying to make the game as "friendly" as possible or in your words "simplistic". Look at all the things that were first considered broken in Melee and Brawl. The players knew it was broken so they found ways around by experimenting, developing the meta.

Almost 5 or months into the game (more or less, I could be wrong) Diddy kong is nerfed because he is "too good". He is indeed good but he was never exceptionally good such as characters like Fox in Melee and IC's and MK in Brawl. People just kept whining until they got the patch they wanted. How will you improve at the game or stay consistent at anything when you never know what technique or anything else such as your character will get patched. Sometimes I wish technology didn't advance too quickly. Back in the 64, Melee and Brawl days, we didn't have the technology to fix something. We did it ourselves,as a community.

I guess I don't really hate 4, I just won't nearly play it as competitively as previous titles. I feel as if every few months you need to find a new main. Probably gonna play the most basic characters Marth and Captain Falcon, as there is not too much to take away from them. But I wouldn't be surprised to see even the simplest characters ruined in the future.

Smash-4 is garbage pointless and too simplistic yes I'm against the game completely. And I don't care about bringing that game into a Brawl thread. Izaw already dropped Link for Sheik in Brawl already knew and don't care.

Yes, the creator of Smash-4 wants to make the game as simple as he possibly can yet players don't care or actually do but they have no choice as Brawl is "dead" in the tournaments but "alive" and well in the Wi-Fi selection.

Also just checked the poll if "Brawl will die" and 75% (pitiful Smash-4 players) and 25% Brawl players (the percent that truly matters and only matters).

"Tripping" big deal learn to deal with it as many deal with Smash-4's laughable simplicity. "Metaknight" experiment and quit whining as whining won't solve anything but pity people who do whine.

Fighting games are went to be challenging in anyway (it's bad enough the FGC community laughs at Brawl or Melee) now imagine how they think about Smash-4 (laughter and pity).

If I was to whine about Link and just "giving up" then I would never develop him as I have now. A quote that I live by and will cherish for the rest of my life, " without suffering there will be no winning."

 

[sijon]

Brawl in my opinion wasn't all that great. In my opinion, all that it is good for is Project M.

Now before you brawl fanboys start rushing in, I can have my own opinion.
Brawl had several characters just stacked with power, specifically Meta Knight, and he was so good that he was banned from most tournaments. The trouble people went through to play brawl, all to see the competitive and fun scene was small and slow, was a complete waste of time. I do however, like most, have a big bias towards PM and Melee. So, that also comes into play. My poor Falco was slowed down, and his moves got changed. Poor, poor Falco. </3

Aside from such, those who did play Brawl competitively, it took little to no tech skill. It just took some projectiles and a move that sucked you in. The game itself was just a poor sequal to the smash bros. series, and a disappointment overall.

I agree with you partly. I wouldn't label myself as a Brawl fanboy, as I play every game just for the love of the series and the games I grew up with. Yes there are characters like Metaknight but doesn't every fighting game even games other than smash have there own top tier? Either way the players found ways around it or at least tried rather than giving up immediately, which is why I respect most 64, Melee and Brawl players rather than some Sm4sh players who wait for a patch.

I myself enjoy the popular Brawl mod Project M just like many others, but I would never consider it a replacement to Brawl. Definitely something I have gotten into and enjoy very much but as I said before, I play each smash in love of the series, something I hope all the community can understand. Watching PM is like a work of art. I shall say this again as I have multiple times, this is my opinion as well.

Brawl in my opinion wasn't all that great. In my opinion, all that it is good for is Project M.

Now before you brawl fanboys start rushing in, I can have my own opinion.
Brawl had several characters just stacked with power, specifically Meta Knight, and he was so good that he was banned from most tournaments. The trouble people went through to play brawl, all to see the competitive and fun scene was small and slow, was a complete waste of time. I do however, like most, have a big bias towards PM and Melee. So, that also comes into play. My poor Falco was slowed down, and his moves got changed. Poor, poor Falco. </3

Aside from such, those who did play Brawl competitively, it took little to no tech skill. It just took some projectiles and a move that sucked you in. The game itself was just a poor sequal to the smash bros. series, and a disappointment overall.

Yeah Melee Falco's shine- dair etc is so satisfying.

Brawl in my opinion wasn't all that great. In my opinion, all that it is good for is Project M.

Now before you brawl fanboys start rushing in, I can have my own opinion.
Brawl had several characters just stacked with power, specifically Meta Knight, and he was so good that he was banned from most tournaments. The trouble people went through to play brawl, all to see the competitive and fun scene was small and slow, was a complete waste of time. I do however, like most, have a big bias towards PM and Melee. So, that also comes into play. My poor Falco was slowed down, and his moves got changed. Poor, poor Falco. </3

Aside from such, those who did play Brawl competitively, it took little to no tech skill. It just took some projectiles and a move that sucked you in. The game itself was just a poor sequal to the smash bros. series, and a disappointment overall.

Just realized you joined today, welcome to Smashboards man!

 

[Deleted member]

Smash-4 is garbage pointless and too simplistic yes I'm against the game completely. And I don't care about bringing that game into a Brawl thread. Izaw already dropped Link for Sheik in Brawl already knew and don't care.

Yes, the creator of Smash-4 wants to make the game as simple as he possibly can yet players don't care or actually do but they have no choice as Brawl is "dead" in the tournaments but "alive" and well in the Wi-Fi selection.

Also just checked the poll if "Brawl will die" and 75% (pitiful Smash-4 players) and 25% Brawl players (the percent that truly matters and only matters).

"Tripping" big deal learn to deal with it as many deal with Smash-4's laughable simplicity. "Metaknight" experiment and quit whining as whining won't solve anything but pity people who do whine.

Fighting games are went to be challenging in anyway (it's bad enough the FGC community laughs at Brawl or Melee) now imagine how they think about Smash-4 (laughter and pity).

If I was to whine about Link and just "giving up" then I would never develop him as I have now. A quote that I live by and will cherish for the rest of my life, " without suffering there will be no winning."

Quit being so toxic. How about you don't call Smash 4 players pitiful just because they like their game more than yours? Brawl is barely alive as is, literally only five of us play online consistently. There's a reason why Brawl is nowhere to be seen in tournaments today, and it includes the fact it's inherently poorly designed and the fact that more than half of the cast is barely , if at all viable at top level.

If you call Smash 4 simple, I highly doubt you've given it the time you need to give a fair opinion on it. If anything it comes across more as "Smash 4 is for babies, Brawl forever!!!"

 

[sijon]

Quit being so toxic. How about you don't call Smash 4 players pitiful just because they like their game more than yours? Brawl is barely alive as is, literally only five of us play online consistently. There's a reason why Brawl is nowhere to be seen in tournaments today, and it includes the fact it's inherently poorly designed and the fact that more than half of the cast is barely , if at all viable at top level.

If you call Smash 4 simple, I highly doubt you've given it the time you need to give a fair opinion on it. If anything it comes across more as "Smash 4 is for babies, Brawl forever!!!"

Hmmm, can't tell if your'e being biased towards something. Not sure if your'e like me and respect every game with it's design and flaws but I guess I should just keep quiet to prevent further anger or "salt" haha! Anyways just remember that there will always be peopl with dedication to non top level viable characters and there will always be players like Salem and Will causing upsets, beating top tiers with mid-low tiers. This is something not only Smash has but all fighting games such as Street Fighter, MvC(2,3..) (also known as games I suck at lol)
etc...

 

[Deleted member]

Hmmm, can't tell if your'e being biased towards something. Not sure if your'e like me and respect every game with it's design and flaws but I guess I should just keep quiet to prevent further anger or "salt" haha! Anyways just remember that there will always be peopl with dedication to non top level viable characters and there will always be players like Salem and Will causing upsets, beating top tiers with mid-low tiers. This is something not only Smash has but all fighting games such as Street Fighter MvC(2,3..)
etc...

I love every Smash game, but I'm not going to tolerate people taking jabs others for playing a certain game or preferring one over another. That's just dumb. Even if I like all the games, it doesn't mean I don't have criticisms for them either.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

There was a time when Brawl was just as popular as Melee, but that came from it being a new Smash Bros. game and everybody jumping on the hype train if anything. Even Mew2King who initially hated Brawl ended up getting into the game later, but he's the one who started the entire Meta Knight bandwagon. ._.

Brawl isn't outright braindead though, but it's definitely easier to play than all the other games in the series, especially Melee and Project M. I'd even lump Smash 64 with those two considering it's deceptively high learning curve. It doesn't help when you have three characters () that practically body the entire cast.

I disagree with you on Falco tho. I actually like his Brawl moveset more than his Melee one. Do miss shine into dair, however.

You must be joking me if you even have the slightest empathy that "Brawl is the easiest" you even mentioning Smash-4 is more "up to par" than Brawl shows you have no idea what you're ranting about.

And no Olimar is basic once you understand and (experiment) against his Pikman throws, Grabs and Up Smashes. Metaknight is so overrated it makes me grieve with shame. Metaknight is fast okay (so is Sonic) he has lag-less moves and they're really powerful somewhat through juggling (okay so does Marth).

Now, here's where Metaknight shines truthfully, his Nado, his tilts, and grabs. If players were clever enough to chip him little by little and Metaknight players cannot trade at all since he's so light weight making him forcefully without his will to approach, and how will he approach?

By Nado and only Nado so what should the other player do then. Shield, retreat, stay still, or punish! Yes, punish every-time and even at times throw out a random Smash attack to catch them off guard (and believe me they do almost every-time but they don't see that way since Metaknight is "god" and all must obey by getting hit no matter what sigh.

Ice Climbers, separate Nana by as well Metaknight (chipping her out little by little). Don't forget Nana has her own percentage and the player can't power shield each and every time with Nana included, so? Take Nana out and focus on Popo now, how?

Get to experimenting and most importantly quite whining truly pitiful. Unlike many here, I enjoy a good challenge or even an "impossible challenge" always worth the hard work when proving someone wrong and making them not know how to comment whether they're "salty" or astonished always worth it not sure if others seem this way but I do, and I don't care if others don't I never do.

 

[CuRsE]

I take back that Brawl was useless, I myself thought the game was just not worth all the hype it got, that's all.

There was a time when Brawl was just as popular as Melee, but that came from it being a new Smash Bros. game and everybody jumping on the hype train if anything. Even Mew2King who initially hated Brawl ended up getting into the game later, but he's the one who started the entire Meta Knight bandwagon. ._.

Brawl isn't outright braindead though, but it's definitely easier to play than all the other games in the series, especially Melee and Project M. I'd even lump Smash 64 with those two considering it's deceptively high learning curve. It doesn't help when you have three characters () that practically body the entire cast.

I disagree with you on Falco tho. I actually like his Brawl moveset more than his Melee one. Do miss shine into dair, however.

Falco's shine-D-Air was way too satisfying. Now it's gone in the new games. -tear sheds-

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Quit being so toxic. How about you don't call Smash 4 players pitiful just because they like their game more than yours? Brawl is barely alive as is, literally only five of us play online consistently. There's a reason why Brawl is nowhere to be seen in tournaments today, and it includes the fact it's inherently poorly designed and the fact that more than half of the cast is barely , if at all viable at top level.

If you call Smash 4 simple, I highly doubt you've given it the time you need to give a fair opinion on it. If anything it comes across more as "Smash 4 is for babies, Brawl forever!!!"

Exactly how am I "being toxic" oh what because Smash-4 players play Smash-4 (sigh no). Also did I mention names or mention their, personality? No, I didn't I mentioned their attributes they possess towards the Smash series of video-games. I don't know who they are or what they do (don't care) all I know and experienced however is Smash is pitiful as the same for the creator of Smash as of now.

He listened to little kids or people in general who whine too much and I bet they do this sort of tactic for everything including life. I have nothing against anyone (because I don't care their words won't effect me whether they despise me or not), the only "vendetta" I have is how Smash is now and who is to blame? Geez, I wonder who probably Santa Claus sigh.

 

[Omar_25]

I just like playing video games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Harb]

I like going back and playing every Smash game. I just play what I feel like playing. lol That being said, I do think that there are always going to be Brawl tourneys. Just not major ones.