How Can We Save Brawl?

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I'll try this again, "who does any user here believe would be the next Super Smash Brothers Brawl underrated character to become something as they all already are."

 

[Tocaraca2]

I'll try this again, "who does any user here believe would be the next Super Smash Brothers Brawl underrated character to become something as they all already are."

Zelda, she's not as bad in Brawl as she should be credited for, I have no idea how she is better in Sm4sh if pretty much every move she has was better in Brawl. Her smashes are great, her aerials have quite low lag and are powerful, and her recovery covers a lot of distance.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Zelda, she's not as bad in Brawl as she should be credited for, I have no idea how she is better in Sm4sh if pretty much every move she has was better in Brawl. Her smashes are great, her aerials have quite low lag and are powerful, and her recovery covers a lot of distance.

Yes, you are right, Zelda absolutely can take on any character including Metaknight. Her Forward and Up Smash may become Smash Directional Influence (SDI) but, her Up tilt cannot and her Forward tilt cannot. I use to brawl a Zelda main that would use Zelda in the most effective way possible.

When on high percentages, the Zelda player (Blue Flame) was his name, anyways, he would grab my character into a down tilt on high percentages, wait for an air dodge and Up tilt (I'm dead) or if I would attack or try to, he would use Netrual B. He was the best Zelda I have ever seen (and I've fought pretty much all of them). He had amazing string ups as well proving that Zelda is a great character and all that needs to be done is experimenting.

She has a not so good recovery, so? She has very strong attacks and lag-less move-sets (and her Side B kick is so powerful it kills almost every character at the 80% range).

As for Smash-4 side comparisons you know my answer already. And her recovery well, Edge guarding and ROC lag (landing on the ground with a few lag frames) causing annoying follow ups from the character edge guarding against Zelda's recovery. But that's not the problem really, it's the fact Zeldas (love) to Up Smash or Forward smash when all they could be doing is Up Tilt or Forward tilt (which can lead to string ups more promising).

My theory was GnW, I always saw him to have something special and he does. Thanks man.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yes, you are right, Zelda absolutely can take on any character including Metaknight.

... There are no words... Honestly, what opponents are you playing against to where you can make this claim with a straight face?

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

... There are no words... Honestly, what opponents are you playing against to where you can make this claim with a straight face?

About what, MK? Or the Zelda player? You ever heard, read about Jujux?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

About what, MK? Or the Zelda player? You ever heard, read about Jujux?

Zelda beating everyone up to and including Meta Knight. I mained Zelda; her mobility is atrocious in comparison to Meta Knight. I've never heard of Jujux. How well does he place?

 

[Tocaraca2]

Zelda beating everyone up to and including Meta Knight. I mained Zelda; her mobility is atrocious in comparison to Meta Knight. I've never heard of Jujux. How well does he place?

Anybody can take on Meta Knight, it's just that almost nobody knows how.

 

[LancerStaff]

Heheh. Yeah, like calling everybody idiots will get them interested in your game. Does the opposite, actually. Flinging these insults literally makes Brawl die faster.

 

[TheJolteon]

Advance the meta with the low tiers of Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

Heheh. Yeah, like calling everybody idiots will get them interested in your game. Does the opposite, actually. Flinging these insults literally makes Brawl die faster.

This. Bashing Smash 4 players while showing a clear bias towards Brawl makes you just look like a complete ****.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Zelda beating everyone up to and including Meta Knight. I mained Zelda; her mobility is atrocious in comparison to Meta Knight. I've never heard of Jujux. How well does he place?

Well, I despise to correct someone towards Brawl entities but, you are wrong. Zelda can take on any character (and if a player doesn't know how to SDI) then Up Smash and Forward smash at high percentage means death and quick kills plus her Up Smash is like a couple of frames to start up and end which means no punishes towrds the majority of the the Brawl cast. I'm not getting into detail not worth it sadly. And yes, I knew you haven't heard or read about Jujux. He's the best European Zelda player and in my opinion the best Zelda towards tournament standards. Him and his character (Zelda) have been in Grand Finals against people like Leon Mr.R Rydle and so forth.

Here's a combo video displaying how to think outside the box when playing Zelda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oay3GH3AkSU

And no it's not just "combo video shows the bad side of the players". You can search all the matches and watch them yourself. I just show a combo video to show the overall structure of how Zelda is seen outside the box. How I myself have way better creative ideas but notice the 2010 so it's old but no doubt highest technology in tournaments today and Wi-Fi even (he use to Wi-Fi). If I find some old matches with Blue Flame, I will immediately upload them (even though I don't want to rush anything and take my time into developing my channel through matches and such). Also, notice how the video shows Olimar, Ice Climbers and Metaknight becoming annihilated myth has been debunked. Yes all the players are exceptionally talented for the record.

Tocaraca2

Indeed man, players just don't know how to punish towards full potential or not to panic when the "big bad" Metaknight shows up.

@Feelicks

Seems I will have to continue this then; who is responsible for transforming Brawl into a "dead" video-game, now? Smash-4.

Who exaggerates Smash-4 as being greater than sliced bread? Smash-4 players.

Who doesn't hush about Smash-4 not ever, hmm? Smash-4 players.

I can write from experience that yes Melee players do mention Melee a lot, but not even them do they mention Melee this much like what Smash-4 players do. Basically, Smash-4 players took the Melee persona too far and made it "uncool". Same for Brawl and Smash-64 players specifically game based. I already know there are players in general who are humble and play all the games or mostly. But Smash-64 and the remaining cast of Brawl players are the most humble out of the rest of the Smash group easily (not mentioning I but the majority have a more humble way than Melee, Smash-4 and the Brawl mod PM). Thanks.

Edit: Wow, three guests oh boy sigh.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well, I despise to correct someone towards Brawl entities but, you are wrong. Zelda can take on any character (and if a player doesn't know how to SDI) then Up Smash and Forward smash at high percentage means death and quick kills plus her Up Smash is like a couple of frames to start up and end which means no punishes towrds the majority of the the Brawl cast. I'm not getting into detail not worth it sadly. And yes, I knew you haven't heard or read about Jujux. He's the best European Zelda player and in my opinion the best Zelda towards tournament standards. Him and his character (Zelda) have been in Grand Finals against people like Leon Mr.R Rydle and so forth.

Here's a combo video displaying how to think outside the box when playing Zelda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oay3GH3AkSU

And no it's not just "combo video shows the bad side of the players". You can search all the matches and watch them yourself. I just show a combo video to show the overall structure of how Zelda is seen outside the box. How I myself have way better creative ideas but notice the 2010 so it's old but no doubt highest technology in tournaments today and Wi-Fi even (he use to Wi-Fi). If I find some old matches with Blue Flame, I will immediately upload them (even though I don't want to rush anything and take my time into developing my channel through matches and such). Also, notice how the video shows Olimar, Ice Climbers and Metaknight becoming annihilated myth has been debunked. Yes all the players are exceptionally talented for the record.

What's the biggest event he has attended? Where are the other Zelda players? I glanced through APEX results and didn't even see his name. Did he play exclusively Zelda in those tournaments? Would he have placed better had he used a different character? How consistent does he place with Zelda? And lastly, you do know that Meta Knight is a candidate for being banned, yes?

 

[Tocaraca2]

I feel like the only Sm4sh player who doesn't like Sm4sh more than Brawl, I like them both just as much. People don't realise that Brawl requires lots of tech skill and can be really fun to play and watch at loads of times.

 

[LancerStaff]

Smash 4 players didn't contribute to the downfall of Brawl, Brawl players stopped playing of their own accord. If the old Brawl players wanted to keep playing Brawl they'd have their own tournaments. And they do. It's just that not nearly as many people want to play Brawl as Smash 4. And making Brawl players look like jack***es ain't helping matters.

Now rather then being bitter and making various outrageous claims you can be peaceful and coexist while gathering real support. Your choice NTAO.

 

[Tocaraca2]

In order to save Brawl we need to make people realise its potential, and the things that make it a great game. I believe that changing it to 1 stock is a horrible idea and 2 stock would be better, however I don't see any problem with 3 stock anyway.
I hate how Sm4sh is 2 stock. There's no valid reason for it to be 2 stock as the game is actually faster paced, and since there are only spikes and no more meteor smashes it means that you don't need cheap-ass Ledge-Hogging to kill your opponent after a Down Air, you can just hit them with it and then they have to wait until the hitstun wears off before they can recover, however in Brawl for some reason you can act immediately after being meteor smashed.
Back to Brawl, most people seem to think the game is slow, defensive ****. This is true some of the time but it can actually become fun to watch, especially when you are playing with fast characters like Falco and Marth (I don't mean fast run speed, I mean fast attacks and stuff).
Also people need to realise that pretty much every CSAT's (Character Specific Advanced Techniques) were removed in Sm4sh, which is stupid, which is why I play as the new characters in Sm4sh and not my old mains which have been ruined, like Pit, Ike, and Falco.
At least Kirby can now true combo into his hat abilities...

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

What's the biggest event he has attended? Where are the other Zelda players? I glanced through APEX results and didn't even see his name. Did he play exclusively Zelda in those tournaments? Would he have placed better had he used a different character? How consistent does he place with Zelda? And lastly, you do know that Meta Knight is a candidate for being banned, yes?

Jujux never came to the American tournaments sorry man. Though he has won Buisho Impact (biggest European tournament) before, and yes that is the tournament where Gluttony annihilated Ally's Snake. Jujux uses MK, Marth and other characters but his main is always Zelda. Hmm, his consistency is around 4th to 3rd (and that's Zelda so) usually Gluttony, Leon, Mr.R pretty much win the tournaments though Jujux has won a major tournament using only Zelda. Honestly, towards MK and all, I do feel that if Brawl will be seen in tournaments once more that MK will become banned once more. For me in general I don't care, I enjoy a hard match-up or "impossible match-up," why? Because I will have to experiment even more further and discover more versatile ways towards using my character (as I have hit a plateau with my character many times and what changed that was fighting difficult matches to experiment with new ideas and achieving success).

LancerStaff

No, when Project M was made players still played Brawl, when Melee was still played players still played Brawl, and when Smash-64 was played players still played Brawl. Now, when Smash-4 was made Brawl became less needed so no Smash-4 has a huge part to play against. And here's where I will attack and defend Brawl, if a person like myself has played every Smash-game and enjoy immensely, then why can't I enjoy Smash-4 then? Because the game is completely lobe sided towards all these unnecessary "fixes".

Why am I bitter? Not sure how I'm bitter but if you mean hard to please then yes indeed I am. I even except my own-self to impress myself whether that is in the real world or Smash world. I have nothing against anyone as you can view; I view and treat everyone the same (no matter what they write because I don't care their words won't "tarnish my reputation").

No one is seen higher or lower in my eyes with the exception of their actions. Thanks.

 

[Tocaraca2]

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 Of course people stopped playing Brawl when Smash-4 came out, because it was the new Smash game and everybody moves on to the sequel of a series when it comes out, and people liked Smash-4 so they stuck to it. When Project-M was made people still played Brawl because PM is a MOD. Not an official Smash game. And when Melee was still played people still played Brawl because Melee is old and Brawl is new, and lots of people preferred Brawl anyway that's why they stuck to it after it was released. You seem to be one of the only people who likes Brawl but not Sm4sh.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff

No, when Project M was made players still played Brawl, when Melee was still played players still played Brawl, and when Smash-64 was played players still played Brawl. Now, when Smash-4 was made Brawl became less needed so no Smash-4 has a huge part to play against. And here's where I will attack and defend Brawl, if a person like myself has played every Smash-game and enjoy immensely, then why can't I enjoy Smash-4 then? Because the game is completely lobe sided towards all these unnecessary "fixes".

Why am I bitter? Not sure how I'm bitter but if you mean hard to please then yes indeed I am. I even except my own-self to impress myself whether that is in the real world or Smash world. I have nothing against anyone as you can view; I view and treat everyone the same (no matter what they write because I don't care their words won't "tarnish my reputation").

No one is seen higher or lower in my eyes with the exception of their actions. Thanks.

You're not listening. The Brawl players left of their own accord. They may be some stragglers but that's how life is in competitive gaming. You don't think SSB4 will last forever do you? I doubt even Melee will last. Not Smash 4's fault Brawl players were weak.

Can't say I care about tech. Most people don't, and Smash is targeted to most people. Had the ability to sensibly patch Brawl existed they would of, and in all honesty you wouldn't of cared. You wouldn't of ever been aware of what was fixed and couldn't of complained about it.

Doesn't matter if you treat everybody like ****, if they see what looks like a bitter Brawl player it's going to taint their opinion of them and the game. Literally no justification to your bad personality. Heck, if this conversation were in a more active part of the forum you'd of racked up quite a few infractions. No need to turn everybody against you just because you can.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I agree with LancerStaff, saying that Sm4sh is **** and saying that all the Sm4sh fans are **** won't help anything. What you've gotta do is respect all the games and get others to respect all of the games, including Brawl. Brawl has the potential to be more fun to play/watch than Sm4sh but Sm4sh is almost always more thrilling due to its increased speed and hitstun in the game engine.
LancerStaff It's 'Would have' not 'Would of'. Just saying.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Brawl will be interesting to watch for a certain audience just as chess is interesting to watch for a certain audience. While there is skill being demonstrated, it simply stands that people generally prefer speed and intensity over slow methodical play. Brawl sits in a rough spot because it is no longer the newest game. It has to stand on its own merits, and the community has largely spoken in this regard. As much as people pick on things like tripping, I think Brawl's ledge mechanics were far more devastating to the longevity of the game than anything else. It really cemented the idea that defensive play wins over everything else.

I've seen it mentioned that people need to just "not be pricks and plank so much" or whatever. Everyone needs to understand that competitive play inherently entails playing to win. If the mechanics of the game dictate that the way to win is to ledge-stall like a boss, that has to be acknowledged as an inherent flaw to the ecosystem. The fact that there are rules and mods for addressing this aspect is a red flag.

I find Sm4sh's solution to ledge-stalling to be beautiful.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Brawl will be interesting to watch for a certain audience just as chess is interesting to watch for a certain audience. While there is skill being demonstrated, it simply stands that people generally prefer speed and intensity over slow methodical play. Brawl sits in a rough spot because it is no longer the newest game. It has to stand on its own merits, and the community has largely spoken in this regard. As much as people pick on things like tripping, I think Brawl's ledge mechanics were far more devastating to the longevity of the game than anything else. It really cemented the idea that defensive play wins over everything else.

I've seen it mentioned that people need to just "not be pricks and plank so much" or whatever. Everyone needs to understand that competitive play inherently entails playing to win. If the mechanics of the game dictate that the way to win is to ledge-stall like a boss, that has to be acknowledged as an inherent flaw to the ecosystem. The fact that there are rules and mods for addressing this aspect is a red flag.

I find Sm4sh's solution to ledge-stalling to be beautiful.

I agree with everything you just said, however Melee also has ledge stalling.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I agree with everything you just said, however Melee also has ledge stalling.

It is much less of a problem, but it is indeed a problem. I'd love it if Melee were tweaked to only grant invincibility on the first grab a la Sm4sh without the ledge trumping mechanic.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

You're not listening. The Brawl players left of their own accord. They may be some stragglers but that's how life is in competitive gaming. You don't think SSB4 will last forever do you? I doubt even Melee will last. Not Smash 4's fault Brawl players were weak.

Can't say I care about tech. Most people don't, and Smash is targeted to most people. Had the ability to sensibly patch Brawl existed they would of, and in all honesty you wouldn't of cared. You wouldn't of ever been aware of what was fixed and couldn't of complained about it.

Doesn't matter if you treat everybody like ****, if they see what looks like a bitter Brawl player it's going to taint their opinion of them and the game. Literally no justification to your bad personality. Heck, if this conversation were in a more active part of the forum you'd of racked up quite a few infractions. No need to turn everybody against you just because you can.

I agree about the majority of Brawl players becoming weak (though many still play Brawl so meh that's fine). Now for the rest, I literally have no idea what you're ranting about towards me treating people like "trash". Quit assuming you believe what you're mindlessly ranting about "infractions" no try harder to be the "hero". I still won't understand why Smash-4 players still come in here into a Brawl thread.

If you're here to defend Smash-4 in a Brawl thread then that is really pathetic. I apologize for not responding back earlier (your post was too pitiful to respond to but I did). Now why don't you leave from a Brawl thread, okay?

If you don't even play the game but show up to be a "hero" when in reality you're not accomplishing anything but pity from my end. Also, if you respond again with this then I will block you and I should of from the beginning . Drop Smash-4 conversations from here already it's very annoying and sickening especially in a Brawl thread where you believe you know what Brawl is all about (including a few others in here) pitiful and pathetic. Thanks.

 

[Sensane]

I say that Brawl can stay alive for a while longer if and only if Brawl gets an aMSa player or a major change in the metagame like Smash 64 did. Just wait until Apex 2016.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I say that Brawl can stay alive for a while longer if and only if Brawl gets an aMSa player or a major change in the metagame like Smash 64 did. Just wait until Apex 2016.

Why wait until Apex 2016?

 

[Sensane]

Why wait until Apex 2016?

Because it's the closest international Brawl tournament

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I agree about the majority of Brawl players becoming weak (though many still play Brawl so meh that's fine). Now for the rest, I literally have no idea what you're ranting about towards me treating people like "trash". Quit assuming you believe what you're mindlessly ranting about "infractions" no try harder to be the "hero". I still won't understand why Smash-4 players still come in here into a Brawl thread.

If you're here to defend Smash-4 in a Brawl thread then that is really pathetic. I apologize for not responding back earlier (your post was too pitiful to respond to but I did). Now why don't you leave from a Brawl thread, okay?

If you don't even play the game but show up to be a "hero" when in reality you're not accomplishing anything but pity from my end. Also, if you respond again with this then I will block you and I should of from the beginning . Drop Smash-4 conversations from here already it's very annoying and sickening especially in a Brawl thread where you believe you know what Brawl is all about (including a few others in here) pitiful and pathetic. Thanks.

... "pity" ...

 

[Tocaraca2]

I agree about the majority of Brawl players becoming weak (though many still play Brawl so meh that's fine). Now for the rest, I literally have no idea what you're ranting about towards me treating people like "trash". Quit assuming you believe what you're mindlessly ranting about "infractions" no try harder to be the "hero". I still won't understand why Smash-4 players still come in here into a Brawl thread.

If you're here to defend Smash-4 in a Brawl thread then that is really pathetic. I apologize for not responding back earlier (your post was too pitiful to respond to but I did). Now why don't you leave from a Brawl thread, okay?

If you don't even play the game but show up to be a "hero" when in reality you're not accomplishing anything but pity from my end. Also, if you respond again with this then I will block you and I should of from the beginning . Drop Smash-4 conversations from here already it's very annoying and sickening especially in a Brawl thread where you believe you know what Brawl is all about (including a few others in here) pitiful and pathetic. Thanks.

Stop calling our comments 'pathetic' and 'pitiful', also nobody mentioned anything about anyone being a hero.

 

[Deleted member]

Stop calling our comments 'pathetic' and 'pitiful', also nobody mentioned anything about anyone being a hero.

I agree. However it doesn't help people when people like you, @sijon and Omar_25 are fueling the fire by liking his posts.

 

[Sensane]

I agree. However it doesn't help people when people like you, @sijon and Omar_25 are fueling the fire by liking his posts.

How is that "fueling the fire"? Also dont call people out like that, it's just mean.

 

[Omar_25]

I agree. However it doesn't help people when people like you, @sijon and Omar_25 are fueling the fire by liking his posts.

I liked his posts because I agree with them, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Deleted member]

Apologies, then. I'll just be quiet, this argument is going on much longer than it needs to anyway.

 

[Sensane]

Apologies, then. I'll just be quiet, this argument is going on much longer than it needs to anyway.

Agreed; let's just all say that Brawl still has a chance to be revived. I heard that someone's making a Revival of Brawl series anyway or something.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Agreed; let's just all say that Brawl still has a chance to be revived. I heard that someone's making a Revival of Brawl series anyway or something.

A Revival or Brawl series? What, you mean a YouTube series or something?

 

[Omar_25]

Yeah, the idea of a "revival of Brawl" tournament was brought up in a thread a while back (maybe a few months ago, I'm not sure). There was even talk of starting a "revival of Brawl" wiimmfi tournament series. However, there wasn't enough people who were willing to enter so it never really went anywhere (I think).

 

[Tocaraca2]

Yeah, the idea of a "revival of Brawl" tournament was brought up in a thread a while back (maybe a few months ago, I'm not sure). There was even talk of starting a "revival of Brawl" wiimmfi tournament series. However, there wasn't enough people who were willing to enter so it never really went anywhere (I think).

Wiimmfi sucks, it lags like hell, making a tournament on that is a terrible idea.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Firing up a "Revival of Brawl" is going to be quite the challenge. A big reason Revival of Melee went so well is that much of the Melee community still adored the game. Melee tournament attendance waned temporarily as everyone dug into Brawl and tried to figure out what it had to offer. When it turned out to not be what people wanted, Melee was there waiting for them. I don't really sense that same situation with Brawl. Everyone I talk to considers Sm4sh to be a fixed up Brawl with HD, DLC, etc. (I've drawn the parallel that Brawl was Vista, and Sm4sh was 7. That makes Melee XP, which people used for way too long. XD)

I guess my point is this: you cannot merely will a Brawl community into existence. The interest has to be there. A revival series merely digs it up. It's an unpopular position to hold as people are just gonna yell at me saying "IF YOU DON'T BLINDLY SUPPORT OUR CAUSE THEN GTFO".

So, does that interest exist? If so, where is it hiding? Even if Wiimmfi were flawless, can it really go head to head with Sm4sh and its online offerings?

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I agree. However it doesn't help people when people like you, @sijon and Omar_25 are fueling the fire by liking his posts.

They're not fueling anything, I decide what I would like to do no one "fuels" me to act upon anything I choose to, got it?

Now for the rest, if you guys seriously want to "save" Brawl. Then focus once more on establishing a solid Wi-Fi foundation. Right now a tournament won't do anything. What needs to be done is showing matches that are very entertaining and fancy all around. Then after a while when matches are seen on YouTube Combo videos etc then start making tournaments.

I sure many know the "play to win" so making tournaments won't solve anything but make tournaments in general (already are tournaments on Wiimmfi and barely anyone shows up). Upload matches and continue from there that's what I will be doing soon enough. Thanks.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

They're not fueling anything, I decide what I would like to do no one "fuels" me to act upon anything I choose to, got it?

You are taking this thread waaaaaaay too personally.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Even if Wiimmfi were flawless, can it really go head to head with Sm4sh and its online offerings?

If we get people to realise why the game is unique in a good way, and that it has potential. It will take time, people aren't just going to apply to a random Brawl tournament if it appears with spots for entering.