How Can We Save Brawl?

[Planet God Venus]

And to think this would blow over if I ignored this, sigh I guess it did not blow over.

You seriously think words will do a thing to me? No, it will however annoy the thread and might probably come back when this dysfunctional argument vanishes from here (which judging from your way it will not, sigh).

The words will not even make me upset it nor will it make me re-think what I'm writing to you at the moment, however; I've noticed things about people that 'hate' Brawl so much (it's mostly due to proven theories that they have not truly completed what they came for to achieve towards Brawl and might never will sadly).

You however are just a genetic person that goes with the flow and follows everyone to be liked and THINK if they continue to attack Brawl then 'hey I should to' and attack like everyone and 'hey maybe I'll be liked more or noticed.' I do not want to be liked nor do I care about fame or anything, I enjoy playing Brawl and winning the impossible matches and make others think like how 'is he doing that' that's my achievement. Don't waste your time and most certainly my time.

So you think I'm like AP? And guess what you are? A whiner that wants Brawl to leave (I want Smash4 to leave but that isn't happening), and guess what? Neither is brawl and it isn't dying (whether people want to agree or not, it's not your choice or anyone to decide the fate of Brawl and if it survives or not).

Now learn to leave when it's necessary to leave because you have ABSOLUTELY no purpose to support but mock. Once more "Long live Brawl"

Damn you must really hate your life.

All these rage paragraphs.

And to think this would blow over if I ignored this, sigh I guess it did not blow over.

You seriously think words will do a thing to me? No, it will however annoy the thread and might probably come back when this dysfunctional argument vanishes from here (which judging from your way it will not, sigh).

The words will not even make me upset it nor will it make me re-think what I'm writing to you at the moment, however; I've noticed things about people that 'hate' Brawl so much (it's mostly due to proven theories that they have not truly completed what they came for to achieve towards Brawl and might never will sadly).

You however are just a genetic person that goes with the flow and follows everyone to be liked and THINK if they continue to attack Brawl then 'hey I should to' and attack like everyone and 'hey maybe I'll be liked more or noticed.' I do not want to be liked nor do I care about fame or anything, I enjoy playing Brawl and winning the impossible matches and make others think like how 'is he doing that' that's my achievement. Don't waste your time and most certainly my time.

So you think I'm like AP? And guess what you are? A whiner that wants Brawl to leave (I want Smash4 to leave but that isn't happening), and guess what? Neither is brawl and it isn't dying (whether people want to agree or not, it's not your choice or anyone to decide the fate of Brawl and if it survives or not).

Now learn to leave when it's necessary to leave because you have ABSOLUTELY no purpose to support but mock. Once more "Long live Brawl"

Kids ego is enormous.

 

[Sucumbio]

Tagxy sums it up pretty clearly.

Here's a thought experiment: Imagine Brawl came out before Melee. What would people think then?

Objective vs Subjective: lol, craziness. Anyway Objective things are like, the game size on the disc, the amount of RAM it takes up, the graphics engine in play (code efficacy), etc. Subjective things are, the art style, the music, etc.

In a fighting game, the test of the players in terms of who's best, lies in their mastery of hand-eye coordination and decision making abilities, with each decision being a reaction to the other player's decision, and with "moves ahead" anticipation - a plan if you will. Who goes first is really the only rock/paper/scissors moment - the moment of randomness - once that move is made though, it's on, and what follows is a back-and-forth reactionary decision-making battle that ends with one person the victor.

Both games have efficient input control (objective, goes to programming). You can make the character do what you want it to do, with little effort once you've practiced. Melee has a steeper learning curve, but that is due to it being a faster game, graphically speaking (objective, goes to programming). You can measure this speed, does that make it objectively -better-? No. Being able to be measured in numbers does not automatically make something objectively better just because it has a higher numer. I can count how many Picasso paintings there are in the Louvre, that doesn't make the Louvre an objectively better museum than the Smithsonian just because they have more Picasso paintings (I don't know they do, it's just an example).

Perhaps the only thing that people could unanimously agree on, is that tripping lessens Brawl's value as a competition video game. I happen to agree here. When a player "trips" their options are suddenly reduced to a standard 3, get up straight, roll, or attack, and this is prefaced by a simpler though vastly more important decision, when to initiate the "get up" decision. Do it right away, do it after the opponent has tried to attack me while I'm on the ground, etc. Tripping essentially becomes its own mini-game within the match. However, you could look at several elements of the game as being mini-decisions within the larger match. We call these "exchanges." If character x has grabbed the ledge, there are a,b,c,d,e decisions they can make, and we have a1, a2, a3, a4, a5 options to deal with their choice. The problem with tripping is that it is indeed forced. You cannot decide to trip. But the game can certainly decide to make you trip (even if it's random, it's still governed by an algorithm, so it's still technically the computer's choice). This serves only to reduce the total amount of options present during a match.

SO in terms of a competitive game's -worth- (subjective, goes to personal opinion) one can measure the number of options, which employs objective reasoning, but this does NOT make one game objectively better than the other. That is still a purely subjective call. It just so happens that the Smash FGC feels that the game with the most options is best.

You can play tic-tac-toe competitively. There are very few options here. You can only lose if you make a mistake (each game should end in stalemate, otherwise). But if using a computer, and playing as fast as you can, eventually one person will screw up, and lose. The other person is therefore the better player. This is subjectively horrible in terms of "good competitive gaming." This is objectively no less competition worthy than anything else.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Long Live Brawl!

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know what this turned into, but this is not a thread about melee, pm, or smash 4 vs brawl.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Some dumb drama really, it's nothing to dwell over whatsoever.

I get that Brawl was dominated by High tiers (hasn't all games done the same)? Melee: Fox, Marth, Falco and the list goes on). Of course in many games Low Tiers have shinned in different games (like Nemo as Rolento in Street Fighter changing him that no one even PUT on the Tier list but wrote him off completely).

My point? There's always that hidden spark that changes everything, another example from Brawl is (Will) he beat MKs quite right and showed that DK is a good character, even above his play. I still saw more flaws that needed to be worked on (because that is what an audience does (but of course PRIDE changes that).

Anyway, there is still hope for Brawl and for the people that don't think so (I think so and I know so). Long live Brawl~

 

[DeLux]

The thread reads - "How can we save Brawl?"

It does not read - "Is Brawl (close enough to Melee / PM / Smash 4 to be) worth saving?"

I will begin reigning retribution on those who do not post accordingly.

Carry on

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Edit: Pitiful no.

 

[SirIanAsh]

Brawls a good game, Smash 4 is a better version of it... I might come back to it to play subspace emissary sometimes... But to be honest most of my time on smash is gonna be on Smash 4

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Brawl is greater in terms of everything, heck, players are now moding the Smash4 characters into Brawl, basically it will be Brawl 4, lol.

 

[Player 3.0]

EASY we need more mods and people studying the metagame of low tier characters

 

[Stromp]

It will probably die. Melee and sm4sh are really good games and I feel like most of the community is going to stick with those. Brawl was fun and all, but to me it doesn't compare to the other smashes

 

[BlushFactory]

Sadly,

I think the main reason Brawl is so "received" as it is was that when Melee came out it felt like a massive change (the "Modern Warfare 2" effect as I call it) But, to most players Brawl felt like a step back in certain areas.

I personally loved Brawl (More than Melee or N64) Each Smash game is great in its own regard, Smash 4/3DS and Brawl I feel are better for casual play and Melee/N64 are more competitve.

 

[BlastLine99]

I don't know if someone said this already, but unfortunately the only option may be to make the game more friendly to casual players. Banning of MK and IC would be good, but doing other things like making more "fun" stages legal, more emphasis on 2v2 tourneys, and maybe a mild implementation of custom matches.

 

[Player 3.0]

PERFECT

more emphasis on 2v2 tourneys.

 

[Nishifue]

aaaaaaaaaa

 

[BlushFactory]

IMO:

Project M as great as it is, really did hurt Brawl as a competitive game. And as I've stated before the "Modern Warfare 2" effect is also there.

But I do think if both MK and IC were banned outright or as I posted in the Tournament Section a LoL Draft Pick system were implemented this game would have a huge resurgence in interest. Cause outside of the broken competitive setup that Brawl currently has its an amazing game (i highly prefer it over Melee)

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Honestly, Brawl's sort of done with it's time in the limelight now; Smash 4 is out, it's more conducive to competetive play and is overall just a better game than Brawl; it looks better, feels better and is an overall improvement in most aspects. And this is coming from someone who, untill only a year ago when he revisited Melee, was in the mindset that Brawl was the better of the two. Now Brawl is just not appealing, especially since I've been playing Project M. Brawl is too sluggish and floaty for my liking; there's no intensity and high-octane action in a Brawl match as opposed to a Melee match or a P:M match, and high-octane action does really well for the spectators, the commentators and the players.

The main reason Brawl wasn't well-received on the competetive side is...well, Brawl was shallow. It was really oriented to being a party game, and there weren't as many techniques you could master to make yourself feel like you were climbing on up in skill. It's like learning how to make a balloon dog, but then the friend next to you can already make a balloon porcipine.

Brawl would have done better if it were made to be a spectator sport as much as it was a player sport.

 

[Kokiri.Hylian]

As Brawl being a great game as it was, PM basically saved it. But, I believe that sadly, Brawl is dying. With Melee and SSB4 and PM doing extremely well, I kind of feel badly for Brawl. R.I.P. Brawl, you were my first Wii game, and I'll miss you in tourneys.

 

[NitroSSBM]

sorry guys Brawl sucks

 

[Dr. Windbox]

I wish that brawl could be saved. But when you go to play a game like melee or smash 4 they are just so much better that it puts them on a whole different level above brawl. It was decent from 2008-2013 but now that smash 4 has come out if really makes brawl insignificant in every way. It can't be saved infortunately, it was ok while it lasted, but now it is just dead.

 

[BlushFactory]

I wish that brawl could be saved. But when you go to play a game like melee or smash 4 they are just so much better that it puts them on a whole different level above brawl. It was decent from 2008-2013 but now that smash 4 has come out if really makes brawl insignificant in every way. It can't be saved infortunately, it was ok while it lasted, but now it is just dead.

The Wii Mini™ will save Brawl. Couch Tournaments will make a massive comeback.

Brawl is my favorite smash though, it truly is a shame how much the community whined about it (outside of tripping the game is fine competitively imo) Metaknight and IC are overrated.

 

[Kokiri.Hylian]

The Wii Mini™ will save Brawl. Couch Tournaments will make a massive comeback.

Brawl is my favorite smash though, it truly is a shame how much the community whined about it (outside of tripping the game is fine competitively imo) Metaknight and IC are overrated.

OMFG FRESH MEAT LIKE ME.

 

[Dr. Windbox]

The Wii Mini™ will save Brawl. Couch Tournaments will make a massive comeback.

Brawl is my favorite smash though, it truly is a shame how much the community whined about it (outside of tripping the game is fine competitively imo) Metaknight and IC are overrated.

I am not saying brawl in not good competitively, or that it is a bad game. I had some fun playing brawl, I am just saying that smash 4 and melee are better...

 

[Electrix]

Set the speed to fast in a Special Brawl, makes the game way more difficult

 

[Nishifue]

aaaaaaaaaa

 

[BlushFactory]

I am not saying brawl in not good competitively, or that it is a bad game. I had some fun playing brawl, I am just saying that smash 4 and melee are better...

Wasn't bashing you Just stating in general.

 

[Dvok]

I'm playing Brawl in these days and IMO i think that it deserves a little spot in the smash competitive scene. Just because is slower than Melee and Sm4sh, doesn't mean that it's not competitive. For the MK and IC stuff there's always a solution. A good player (even with C. Falcon/Ganondorf) can find a way to beat even the most broken character in the game (Ally vs Nairo at APEX 2015 is a good example).

 

[oddzxc]

brawl is slow as hell and few characters, it doesn't need any competitive scene...project m fixed that

 

[clydeaker]

I have a question. If we were to remove random tripping with a simple modification would Brawl be the same game or would it be too different?

 

[Electrix]

I have a question. If we were to remove random tripping with a simple modification would Brawl be the same game or would it be too different?

Tripping doesn't happen that often in the first place unless you're dash dancing a lot, so the difference would be beneficial but probably not worth the effort of having everyone practice with the mod.

 

[Scribe]

This was brought up last year, but I'd point to Balanced Brawl

The devs kept the core physics mostly intact, with the only real global changes being small tweaks in some areas (Things like removing random tripping, footstools and jab locking no longer work as infinites, and an anti-planking system that makes you automatically climb back up if you grab ledge five or more times without getting hit, grabbed, KO'd, or put into some sort of status effect). By late 2011 or early 2012, the two guys behind it basically reached a point where they made it as balanced as they could without any real tournament data (Everyone is, at least theoretically, on par with vBrawl Marth), so they closed up shop and moved on to other things. Aside from character balance and those of small tweaks, it's very similar to vBrawl, and really, the only other change I'd make is a removal of hitstun canceling, or at least make the amount of time before you can do so scale with hitstun.

It's a very good mod that's more balanced and competitive-friendly than Brawl while still feeling like Brawl at its core. The only issue is that they focused so much on development that they weren't able to properly market itself like Brawl Plus or Brawl Minus (and later PM) were able to.

That said, Brawl Minus is also a thing that really deserves a proper competitive scene, but that plays less like Brawl and more like a cross between Brawl and Smash 64, with a dash of Melee.

 

[clydeaker]

This was brought up last year, but I'd point to Balanced Brawl

The devs kept the core physics mostly intact, with the only real global changes being small tweaks in some areas (Things like removing random tripping, footstools and jab locking no longer work as infinites, and an anti-planking system that makes you automatically climb back up if you grab ledge five or more times without getting hit, grabbed, KO'd, or put into some sort of status effect). By late 2011 or early 2012, the two guys behind it basically reached a point where they made it as balanced as they could without any real tournament data (Everyone is, at least theoretically, on par with vBrawl Marth), so they closed up shop and moved on to other things. Aside from character balance and those of small tweaks, it's very similar to vBrawl, and really, the only other change I'd make is a removal of hitstun canceling, or at least make the amount of time before you can do so scale with hitstun.

It's a very good mod that's more balanced and competitive-friendly than Brawl while still feeling like Brawl at its core. The only issue is that they focused so much on development that they weren't able to properly market itself like Brawl Plus or Brawl Minus (and later PM) were able to.

That said, Brawl Minus is also a thing that really deserves a proper competitive scene, but that plays less like Brawl and more like a cross between Brawl and Smash 64, with a dash of Melee.

Although I like most of the changes made in Balanced Brawl, They changed each individual characters stats making the game different in the eyes of competitive players.

 

[Scribe]

Although I like most of the changes made in Balanced Brawl, They changed each individual characters stats making the game different in the eyes of competitive players.

That is true, but even then, it's still just a matter of different stats. It's less like learning a whole new game and more like learning a balance patch for Smash 4.

Edit: Looking back on this post, the transition from vBrawl to Balanced Brawl is probably a bit more like if someone played Smash 4 at launch, stopped playing for a while, then came back to it with the latest balance patch. Even then, it's still the same game at its core, so it's really more of a matter of re-learning matchups than anything else.

 

[BlushFactory]

I'm playing Brawl in these days and IMO i think that it deserves a little spot in the smash competitive scene. Just because is slower than Melee and Sm4sh, doesn't mean that it's not competitive. For the MK and IC stuff there's always a solution. A good player (even with C. Falcon/Ganondorf) can find a way to beat even the most broken character in the game (Ally vs Nairo at APEX 2015 is a good example).

Exactly, yet at the same time the character also affects it.

 

[clydeaker]

If Brawl is quote "dead" then why did people still enter in the brawl tournaments at Apex2015 and Super Smash Con?
It seems that most if not all of the top Brawl players have moved their focus onto Melee, Project M, or Wii U. Thus in theory couldn't a group of people somewhat easily develop the brawl meta game while the top players are occupied over the next year. and then end up beating the top players at Apex 2016 or Smash Con 2016?
I feel like you would have a lot better chance at being the best in Brawl compared to Melee or Smash 4 due to how few enter in the Brawl tournaments and the lack of focus on the meta game by top players. It's a lot easier to win prize money if your focus on Brawl.

I believe if someone were able to beat one of the top Brawl players such as Mew2King, ESAM, Nairo, V115, Ally, etc. in a major tournament such as Apex or Smash Con, Brawl will gain a lot more popularity.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

"How can we save Brawl"

Upload Brawl matches to show Brawl is still alive and well.

Start off with Wi-Fi and ask players to brawl with (even if the connection is not so great just brawl0.

Continue to provide content and in due time with how people view how even Brawl (the most hated or loved game in the Smash series) can get up and continue to show its pride and glory. Also if anyone is looking to brawl you know where to find me (Private message or just quote one of my comments somewhere).

Brawl isn't going to return without starting somewhere and that place is Wi-Fi where there are still power hungry individuals who still want to develop the Brawl meta-game and enjoy themselves. Thanks.

 

[Respect38]

Tripping doesn't happen that often in the first place unless you're dash dancing a lot, so the difference would be beneficial but probably not worth the effort of having everyone practice with the mod.

Is it even necessary for people to practice with the mod? Sure, it would be nice to have it, but you could practice for this "mod" by just playing Brawl and just basing your practice off of whatever happens whenever nobody trips. If tripping doesn't happen that often, then doing this wouldn't be that big of a deal, right?

Upload Brawl matches to show Brawl is still alive and well.

Continue to provide content and in due time with how people view how even Brawl (the most hated or loved game in the Smash series) can get up and continue to show its pride and glory. Also if anyone is looking to brawl you know where to find me (Private message or just quote one of my comments somewhere).

I remember seeing Brawl @ Xanadu several weeks ago and thinking that everything might change for Brawl with the changes that they had there, but then they never ended up uploading any of the sets from that tournament, which I don't understand. I'm not even sure if the VODs exist anymore to post, but I was kind of surprised--Xanadu could have made more people aware that Brawl was a thing and they were trying to bring it back with a modified ruleset, but they didn't really support it.

 

[ShadowKing]

Yes and no yes because of Smash 4 and no because not everything in competive play has been used EX I found today when running off stage then turning left or right you'll grab on the stage

 

[Omar_25]

Yes and no yes because of Smash 4 and no because not everything in competive play has been used EX I found today when running off stage then turning left or right you'll grab on the stage

Actually, that technique that you wrote about there has been known for quite a while.

 

[ShadowKing]

Actually, that technique that you wrote about there has been known for quite a while.

I gess u didn't know it was a example \(•_•)/

 

[Omar_25]

I gess u didn't know it was a example \(•_•)/

Huh? I guess I didn't fully understand that post. Woops.