How Can Anyone Believe in God?

[samdaballer]

In my opinion there is no proof for god, that is my reasoning, and no the bible is not an answer, it could be written by anyone, a work of fiction. How can the story of adam and eve even be possible. Moses parting a sea? how come no one else can? And jesus? do we even have solid proof of jesus. Heaven? Hell? prove it. There is no proof.

 

[NeBz]

I don't know about you guys. But my religon(Islam) proved to me that god exists. And never failed to make sence.

 

[samdaballer]

Guys, logic is a REASONED judgement, how can you reason that the bible is proof of god? that is as illogical as saying Lord Of The Rings is true. It is illogical, in reality to believe in god

I don't know about you guys. But my religon(Islam) proved to me that god exists. And never failed to make sence.

my parents are both muslim, can you give me examples of actual proof that god exists?

 

[znintendotaku]

i think humans created a god to keep political order...to shut people up, i.e. why did my baby die at birth....well God noticed your child was full of sin and destroyed him...Or... Why is the sky blue?....well blue is God's favorite color....they couldnt comprehend those answers so they blamed it on an all powerful invisible mystical man...we might as well believe in Superman....

 

[chucklesXcore]

ah how I am so tired of this endless debate. It will never be resolved and it will only just cause people getting pissed at each other when its unnecessary. Alas, I will put my perspective out there as calmly as I can.

I am a believer and a devout Christian.

That said, unlike the stereotype, I don't like to force that on anyone. And if anyone is Christian they would know its not our place to force it. We are called to spread God's name, but we are also called to back off if we cannot get through to someone. And MOST of the time its pretty obvious someone has their own views and are steadfast in them. So don't try to break down their walls. They have their views, you have yours. Blah blah blah.

Also, how can anyone believe in God. Simply one reason, comfort and structure. I HONESTLY do believe in God, but I never feel like arguing it because there is no logical explanation I can give as to why. Its only the feeling I get from believing that reassures me. And when debating with someone who only uses pure logic and is not basing it off any spiritual feelings(which is what believing is) all your going to do is argue back on forth with two very very different perspectives. Its just a waste of time in my opinion. I think its a little rude to try and tell people they shouldn't believe in God and list out all these reasons why its illogical.

Why should you attack something that if followed properly only causes comfort and structure. Granted, I will give you it mostly causes problems now a days and thats because of radicals and people who have a distorted view of what it means to be a believer. But seriously, someone like me, who minds his own business and believes, should not hear from atheists day in and day out about how stupid I am. It gives me comfort, I don't fear death. It gives me peace when people close to me die, etc. I have the comfort of prayer, something an Atheist doesn't have. Its all about the feeling it gives someone and the ability it can give them to handle day to day life. Sure, you may call us weak for not being able to handle it on our own, but in my opinion whats wrong with it? Why try and shut every single one of us down? I understand that the radicals make things bad for everyone, but if you think about it some people just want to live a good morally sound life. And there's nothing wrong with that. They can do this on their own? Yah, of course they can, but its much easier when you have a guide. So if you want to try and take away someone's comfort and structure they base their life of, maybe you should think about what your saying first.

And that said, I don't believe in God just for these reasons, its a benefit. As stated before, its only the spiritual feeling I get that I cannot explain to someone who does not feel it. Thats why people believe in God.

 

[cman]

That said, unlike the stereotype, I don't like to force that on anyone. And if anyone is Christian they would know its not our place to force it. We are called to spread God's name, but we are also called to back off if we cannot get through to someone. And MOST of the time its pretty obvious someone has their own views and are steadfast in them. So don't try to break down their walls. They have their views, you have yours. Blah blah blah.

Is that before or after the part when the bible says to stone the non-believers?

Also, how can anyone believe in God. Simply one reason, comfort and structure. I HONESTLY do believe in God, but I never feel like arguing it because there is no logical explanation I can give as to why. Its only the feeling I get from believing that reassures me. And when debating with someone who only uses pure logic and is not basing it off any spiritual feelings(which is what believing is) all your going to do is argue back on forth with two very very different perspectives. Its just a waste of time in my opinion. I think its a little rude to try and tell people they shouldn't believe in God and list out all these reasons why its illogical.

Why should you attack something that if followed properly only causes comfort and structure. Granted, I will give you it mostly causes problems now a days and thats because of radicals and people who have a distorted view of what it means to be a believer. But seriously, someone like me, who minds his own business and believes, should not hear from atheists day in and day out about how stupid I am. It gives me comfort, I don't fear death. It gives me peace when people close to me die, etc. I have the comfort of prayer, something an Atheist doesn't have. Its all about the feeling it gives someone and the ability it can give them to handle day to day life. Sure, you may call us weak for not being able to handle it on our own, but in my opinion whats wrong with it? Why try and shut every single one of us down? I understand that the radicals make things bad for everyone, but if you think about it some people just want to live a good morally sound life. And there's nothing wrong with that. They can do this on their own? Yah, of course they can, but its much easier when you have a guide. So if you want to try and take away someone's comfort and structure they base their life of, maybe you should think about what your saying first.

And that said, I don't believe in God just for these reasons, its a benefit. As stated before, its only the spiritual feeling I get that I cannot explain to someone who does not feel it. Thats why people believe in God.

The problem with the 'guide' (bible) is that you can interpret it pretty much anyway you want. Then the malicious and motivated person can the tell the people who already consider faith a noble quality his own interpretation, and those people often take it to be true on faith as well. Generally the religious are very easy to mobilize for a certain cause, and this is why religion is such a powerful force in politics. This is the problem that i have with faith.

Also, I, as an atheist, do not fear death either, for I have no reason to fear it. I, instead of taking comfort in prayer, take comfort in the trust of my own ability to make decisions. The advantage to this over prayer is that is actually gets stuff done, rather than just wishing it would.

This wasn't meant to debate your points or anything. I was just trying togive counter-examples on why it is sometimes better to kick faith into the dust bin.

 

[chucklesXcore]

Is that before or after the part when the bible says to stone the non-believers?


The problem with the 'guide' (bible) is that you can interpret it pretty much anyway you want. Then the malicious and motivated person can the tell the people who already consider faith a noble quality his own interpretation, and those people often take it to be true on faith as well. Generally the religious are very easy to mobilize for a certain cause, and this is why religion is such a powerful force in politics. This is the problem that i have with faith.

Also, I, as an atheist, do not fear death either, for I have no reason to fear it. I, instead of taking comfort in prayer, take comfort in the trust of my own ability to make decisions. The advantage to this over prayer is that is actually gets stuff done, rather than just wishing it would.

This wasn't meant to debate your points or anything. I was just trying togive counter-examples on why it is sometimes better to kick faith into the dust bin.

For the first part, if you've even read the bible, you would know thats old testament....and times have changed drastically since then. From a religious stand point, God was VERY strict in the old testament. I mean thats where everyone takes their criticism from. Is the old testament, which most christians don't really even apply as much. I can assure you that the bible does say we are not to force ourselves on others when its obvious we can't get through to them....having read the bible numerous times.

And I didn't mean to imply that all atheists fear death. I just meant to make the point that it gives people comfort, and that may be considered weak, but what does it benefit to you to take that away from them.

And prayer isn't something everyone uses to make a decision. Those who claim "god is telling me I should do this" usually are just trying to find a personal excuse to do what they want to do or make themselves feel better. I have seen Christians almost abuse God and prayer to some extents. Its not an excuse for everything. Its for comfort and some guidance, however, God doesn't speak to anyone directly so to say Christians rely on prayer for their actions/decisions is inaccurate. We are just the same as everyone else. Thats a stereotype. Its an ADDED comfort. Not something we solely rely on. We also believe God gave us brains for a reason...we use them. We don't solely let our spirits guide us. Anyone who solely lives by their spirit maybe should reconsider their thought process in my opinion, but again its not my place to specifically tell them what they should or shouldn't do. We also don't just sit around and wish stuff happens through prayer, prayer is comfort when there is nothing we can do. Do you know anyone who has a cure for cancer? or know how to? don't think so....so I prayed for my dad to make it through his cancer alive. That was a comfort I could get nowhere else. Someone who doesn't believe does not have this comfort and only has the harsh reality.

In comparison, prayer is what an average person calls hoping only with one difference, the people who believe can honestly say they feel something in their heart that no one can take away.

 

[znintendotaku]

stone the non-believers....i lol'd at that....

of course chuckles is a pit main...
(no flame intended)

 

[arrowhead]

And MOST of the time its pretty obvious someone has their own views and are steadfast in them. So don't try to break down their walls. They have their views, you have yours. Blah blah blah.

why does this matter?

Also,I HONESTLY do believe in God, but I never feel like arguing it because there is no logical explanation I can give as to why. Its only the feeling I get from believing that reassures me. And when debating with someone who only uses pure logic and is not basing it off any spiritual feelings(which is what believing is) all your going to do is argue back on forth with two very very different perspectives. Its just a waste of time in my opinion.

if the concept of god (and especially the christian god) is illogical, why believe in it? would you actually rather believe in a lie to make you feel a little better than know the truth?

I think its a little rude to try and tell people they shouldn't believe in God and list out all these reasons why its illogical.

this is a debate hall.

Why should you attack something that if followed properly only causes comfort and structure.

this isn't the only result of most religions so the point is irrelevant

Why try and shut every single one of us down? I understand that the radicals make things bad for everyone, but if you think about it some people just want to live a good morally sound life. And there's nothing wrong with that. They can do this on their own? Yah, of course they can, but its much easier when you have a guide. So if you want to try and take away someone's comfort and structure they base their life of, maybe you should think about what your saying first.

again, this is a debate hall

 

[marthanoob]

To add to arrowhead's remarks.

They have their views, you have yours. Blah blah blah.

So did Hitler.

Also, how can anyone believe in God. Simply one reason, comfort and structure. I HONESTLY do believe in God, but I never feel like arguing it because there is no logical explanation I can give as to why. Its only the feeling I get from believing that reassures me. And when debating with someone who only uses pure logic and is not basing it off any spiritual feelings(which is what believing is) all your going to do is argue back on forth with two very very different perspectives. Its just a waste of time in my opinion. I think its a little rude to try and tell people they shouldn't believe in God and list out all these reasons why its illogical.

I feel like there is a pink unicorn out there, somewhere, watching over me, protecting me, guiding me...

Why should you attack something that if followed properly only causes comfort and structure. Granted, I will give you it mostly causes problems now a days and thats because of radicals and people who have a distorted view of what it means to be a believer. But seriously, someone like me, who minds his own business and believes, should not hear from atheists day in and day out about how stupid I am. It gives me comfort, I don't fear death. It gives me peace when people close to me die, etc. I have the comfort of prayer, something an Atheist doesn't have. Its all about the feeling it gives someone and the ability it can give them to handle day to day life. Sure, you may call us weak for not being able to handle it on our own, but in my opinion whats wrong with it? Why try and shut every single one of us down? I understand that the radicals make things bad for everyone, but if you think about it some people just want to live a good morally sound life. And there's nothing wrong with that. They can do this on their own? Yah, of course they can, but its much easier when you have a guide. So if you want to try and take away someone's comfort and structure they base their life of, maybe you should think about what your saying first.

Maybe because we don't think it is the truth?
I don't fear death either.
I have an important question to ask you: Why can't you handle the truth and accept it?
You believe in God because it makes you feel better. And I believe that is intellectually weak.
Maybe I should write a book called How you ought to live your life and tell people to do it because it is the Right thing to do. And maybe I should put some appeal to emotion, fear, authority, and empowerment so they will read it as if it's the truth.

And that said, I don't believe in God just for these reasons, its a benefit. As stated before, its only the spiritual feeling I get that I cannot explain to someone who does not feel it. Thats why people believe in God.

Aesthetic feeling implies subjectivity. Subjectivity implies nonobjectivity. God exists in your mind(s) alone.

That was a comfort I could get nowhere else. Someone who doesn't believe does not have this comfort and only has the harsh reality.

There is always a chance of making it through cancer alive. "Miracles" as you call them, do happen in practice. But I don't see the point of brainwashing yourself to think that he will definitely survive, on Earth or in Heaven.

In comparison, prayer is what an average person calls hoping only with one difference, the people who believe can honestly say they feel something in their heart that no one can take away.

That reminds me of a certain blind sheep who wished the wolf wouldn't eat him.


I apologize in advance for the caustic reply, but that's what I think.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe because we don't think it is the truth?

It might not be fact, but until either side presents decisive evidence, the subject is still open-ended

- 5 points for a Godwin in the second line.

3/10

 

[arrowhead]

It might not be fact, but until either side presents decisive evidence, the subject is still open-ended

what decisive evidence does christianity present? and do you agree or disagree that christianity has many contradictions?

 

[Deleted member]

We're talking about Christianity? I thought this was a debate on whether or not God exists, not some silly Bible debunking.

You guys are in the wrong thread.

 

[marthanoob]

It might not be fact, but until either side presents decisive evidence, the subject is still open-ended

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theists and atheists both claim something. Agnostics say there is no way we will ever know. Skeptics say that they will disbelieve claims without evidence. Currently the one with the most extraordinary claim and least evidence are the theists.

- 5 points for a Godwin in the second line.

That was intentional, but I did not expect to lose points.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol, okay fine - they require evidence. But you're calling these theists wrong. What, do you have the answer key to the universe?

You lost points because not only was it completely irrelevant, it was still a stupid Godwin.

 

[arrowhead]

We're talking about Christianity? I thought this was a debate on whether or not God exists, not some silly Bible debunking.

You guys are in the wrong thread.

i assumed you were talking about christianity since that's your religion

Lol, okay fine - they require evidence. But you're calling these theists wrong. What, do you have the answer key to the universe?

we're not calling them wrong, we're saying they shouldn't clam themselves right.

 

[chucklesXcore]

why does this matter?

Why does this matter? are you serious? That was the WHOLE point of what I said. The point was towards christian's in general that they shouldn't be out trying to force their views on everyone even though I have yet to see any topics that are "why doesn't everyone believe in god" I see numerous topic's though on egotistical people who feel logic is the only view in life and are "why do you believe in god" and I think I saw another one that was about how god isn't real. Granted, this may be the debate hall, and we're ALL open to our views, but I'm just stating something. I see drastically less christians out there posting preaching topics than people who wanna rile us up by telling us logic is the only way. Believe it or not their are people who feel something in their spirits when they pray. There are people who get comfort in the idea of a God. Just because you don't have it doesn't mean you have to try and change this comfort.

if the concept of god (and especially the christian god) is illogical, why believe in it? would you actually rather believe in a lie to make you feel a little better than know the truth?

Just because its illogical does NOT make it a lie. I wish everyone would quit implying that. Do you have factual proof thats not real or just logical reasoning that while it makes sense, still proves nothing. Until you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt, what I and every other christian feels in their spirit is undeniable to us and you aren't going to change that.

this is a debate hall.


this isn't the only result of most religions so the point is irrelevant


again, this is a debate hall

I am aware this is the debate hall, but I feel this is more of an attack on belief than a debate. I see no one bring up logical facts about how God isn't real. I see everyone shutting down why Christians think God is real and why it comforts them, but not bringing up anything in response. Anyone got anything out there? I'd love to hear an honest person say "hey I think God isn't real because...." rather than "you shouldn't believe in god because you thought process is illogical"

The thing is...everyone who says the idea of a God is illogical is missing one vital point.

OF COURSE IT IS ILLOGICAL. a creator? I mean honestly, what's logical about something with that much power and control. People don't believe in God because its logical....we know that. Quit reiterating the same ideas...over...and over...and over. Just because something is illogical doesn't mean it isn't right.

So did hitler

are you seriously about to compare someone as drastic as hitler(and the nazis) to someone believing in the comfort of religion? I already stated, that I believe its wrong for Christians to force their views on everyone and for anyone religious for that matter. Hitler and the Nazis believed they were doing God's work, but anyone else who actually knows the religion would be able to tell you that wasn't the case...or anyone with a brain for that matter. Radicals are obviously considered extreme for a reason, they are usually taking what they believe in to levels they shouldn't. (in most cases at least)

I feel like there is a pink unicorn out there, somewhere, watching over me, protecting me, guiding me...

I don't appreciate the sarcasm. Granted, if you REALLY did believe that I wouldn't try to go out of my way to change that unless I felt you were open to the idea. If you were steadfast it would be a waste of time and all me and you would do is argue. Spirituality, the funny thing about it is...its personal to that individual person. No logic, nobody can take that away from the person. And what you all fail to grasp is that is an empowering feeling, it makes you feel a lot more safe and secure. You have something no one can touch, but you(to some extent). If you get what im trying to say you would know I am not implying that people who believe in God feel they have him all to themselves, they feel that no one can take that feeling away from them because its spiritual. So spiritually if you felt there was a pink unicorn watching over you....as obviously unbacked that would be, I couldn't take that away from you. I could tell you "what makes you think that? you have nothing to even support that". I could tell you that unicorns have been fictionally made up by man...but could that singlehandedly change your spiritual feeling? the answer is no. You'd have to believe it yourself, which means you were never feeling it to begin with...just thought you were.

Granted, most people do not believe in something that doesn't have something backing it up(at least a little logic) unless they are crazy or have a unique case that makes them believe that. For christians, that logic is the consistency of the bible.(and please don't begin to point out its contradictions....we are all WELL aware of them....by consistency I mean that it was written by different many over long periods of time, but still consistently presents the same idea. but I don't want to turn this into a debate on the bible..) and among many other factors I won't get into right now because if I did this already too long of a post would be drastically long.

You believe in God because it makes you feel better. And I believe that is intellectually weak.

First things first, I stated that it is an added comfort, I do not believe because it makes me feel better. I believe because of the spiritual feelings I get when I pray to God. Weak? Tell me the drawbacks of believing in God and how they outweigh the positives of having comfort that you can get nowhere else and I'll gladly see your side on this.

There is always a chance of making it through cancer alive. "Miracles" as you call them, do happen in practice. But I don't see the point of brainwashing yourself to think that he will definitely survive, on Earth or in Heaven.

brainwashing myself? who said I was believing he would make it through. its hoping with a feeling I get from God. The thing is, people who truly follow God no that whatever will happen...is gonna happen. God doesn't intervene. Which is where most of you people are drastically misconstrued on what we pray for. What we pray for is acceptance with reality. We pray for God to prepare us for whatever we feel he has planned(or as a logical person would say, what is about to happen) I knew that if he was going to die, praying wasn't going to change that, but I prayed that if he did...I would be able to handle it. So thats definitely not brainwashing myself.



and I apologize to everyone if I feel overly defensive or harsh, but I just want someone to actually present something thats "logical" since thats what everyone seems to be preaching so much. Rather than attack my views, present some of your own. What are some alternatives to their not being God? Do you have anything out there?

 

[arrowhead]

Why does this matter? are you serious? That was the WHOLE point of what I said. The point was towards christian's in general that they shouldn't be out trying to force their views on everyone even though I have yet to see any topics that are "why doesn't everyone believe in god" I see numerous topic's though on egotistical people who feel logic is the only view in life and are "why do you believe in god" and I think I saw another one that was about how god isn't real. Granted, this may be the debate hall, and we're ALL open to our views, but I'm just stating something. I see drastically less christians out there posting preaching topics than people who wanna rile us up by telling us logic is the only way. Believe it or not their are people who feel something in their spirits when they pray. There are people who get comfort in the idea of a God. Just because you don't have it doesn't mean you have to try and change this comfort.

this doesn't relate to what i had quoted. you said that most people have their views so don't try to change it, which is a bad idea to go by.

Just because its illogical does NOT make it a lie. I wish everyone would quit implying that. Do you have factual proof thats not real or just logical reasoning that while it makes sense, still proves nothing. Until you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt, what I and every other christian feels in their spirit is undeniable to us and you aren't going to change that.

if you're going to believe in something just because it makes you feel better, no matter the complete lack of evidence supporting the claim, you're just lying to yourself. of course there may be the rare chances where you're right, but you would never bet there's a teacup orbiting mars, would you?

I am aware this is the debate hall, but I feel this is more of an attack on belief than a debate. I see no one bring up logical facts about how God isn't real. I see everyone shutting down why Christians think God is real and why it comforts them, but not bringing up anything in response. Anyone got anything out there? I'd love to hear an honest person say "hey I think God isn't real because...." rather than "you shouldn't believe in god because you thought process is illogical"

this is a debate hall, we're supposed to attack the opposition's points. and it's not up to atheists to prove god doesn't exist. the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. although there are plenty of reasons to not believe in certain religions, such as christianity.

The thing is...everyone who says the idea of a God is illogical is missing one vital point.

OF COURSE IT IS ILLOGICAL. a creator? I mean honestly, what's logical about something with that much power and control. People don't believe in God because its logical....we know that. Quit reiterating the same ideas...over...and over...and over. Just because something is illogical doesn't mean it isn't right.

actually, many people DO think god is logical.

are you seriously about to compare someone as drastic as hitler(and the nazis) to someone believing in the comfort of religion? I already stated, that I believe its wrong for Christians to force their views on everyone and for anyone religious for that matter. Hitler and the Nazis believed they were doing God's work, but anyone else who actually knows the religion would be able to tell you that wasn't the case...or anyone with a brain for that matter. Radicals are obviously considered extreme for a reason, they are usually taking what they believe in to levels they shouldn't. (in most cases at least)

who are you to tell us what god's plans are?

Granted, most people do not believe in something that doesn't have something backing it up(at least a little logic) unless they are crazy or have a unique case that makes them believe that. For christians, that logic is the consistency of the bible.(and please don't begin to point out its contradictions....we are all WELL aware of them....by consistency I mean that it was written by different many over long periods of time, but still consistently presents the same idea. but I don't want to turn this into a debate on the bible..) and among many other factors I won't get into right now because if I did this already too long of a post would be drastically long.

you acknowledge that the bible is filled with contradictions, but you still follow it anyways? do you know how incredibly easy it is to add to a book while only needing to maintain the same theme?

First things first, I stated that it is an added comfort, I do not believe because it makes me feel better. I believe because of the spiritual feelings I get when I pray to God. Weak? Tell me the drawbacks of believing in God and how they outweigh the positives of having comfort that you can get nowhere else and I'll gladly see your side on this.

there's nothing wrong with just believing in a god, but almost all the time there are drawbacks that come with picking up a religion, such as slowing both scientific and social advancement.

brainwashing myself? who said I was believing he would make it through. its hoping with a feeling I get from God. The thing is, people who truly follow God no that whatever will happen...is gonna happen. God doesn't intervene. Which is where most of you people are drastically misconstrued on what we pray for. What we pray for is acceptance with reality. We pray for God to prepare us for whatever we feel he has planned(or as a logical person would say, what is about to happen) I knew that if he was going to die, praying wasn't going to change that, but I prayed that if he did...I would be able to handle it. So thats definitely not brainwashing myself.

you didn't brainwash yourself, your parents and church brainwashed you

and I apologize to everyone if I feel overly defensive or harsh, but I just want someone to actually present something thats "logical" since thats what everyone seems to be preaching so much. Rather than attack my views, present some of your own. What are some alternatives to their not being God? Do you have anything out there?

well, what questions do you want answered? i'm going to assume one of them is the creation of the universe so i'm going to suggest that you look up stephen hawking's no boundary proposal. it doesn't prove anything, but it shows that the universe didn't have to be created

but if science can't currently explain something, what's wrong with just saying "i don't know"?

 

[chucklesXcore]

this doesn't relate to what i had quoted. you said that most people have their views so don't try to change it, which is a bad idea to go by.


if you're going to believe in something just because it makes you feel better, no matter the complete lack of evidence supporting the claim, you're just lying to yourself. of course there may be the rare chances where you're right, but you would never bet there's a teacup orbiting mars, would you?


this is a debate hall, we're supposed to attack the opposition's points. and it's not up to atheists to prove god doesn't exist. the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. although there are plenty of reasons to not believe in certain religions, such as christianity.


actually, many people DO think god is logical.


who are you to tell us what god's plans are?


you acknowledge that the bible is filled with contradictions, but you still follow it anyways? do you know how incredibly easy it is to add to a book while only needing to maintain the same theme?


there's nothing wrong with just believing in a god, but almost all the time there are drawbacks that come with picking up a religion, such as slowing both scientific and social advancement.


you didn't brainwash yourself, your parents and church brainwashed you


well, what questions do you want answered? i'm going to assume one of them is the creation of the universe so i'm going to suggest that you look up stephen hawking's no boundary proposal. it doesn't prove anything, but it shows that the universe didn't have to be created

but if science can't currently explain something, what's wrong with just saying "i don't know"?

oh man, the things I can pick apart in this...where to start....

people have their views with RELIGION, so don't try to change those. Obviously radicals and people have a negative effect should maybe be steered in another direction if possible, but religion has and always will be an endless debate where if someone believes, you know darn well you pretty much aren't going to change them.

second, for the MILLIONTH time, I DO NOT BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER. Nor am I saying all christians do. Geeze people, read what the hell I'm saying. This is extremely frustrating when people post without even reading everything I'm saying I feel. I feel your reading more for what to attack rather than trying to hear what I'm saying. I believe because of the spiritual connection(theres a word that might clear up what I'm trying to say) I get when I pray. There. Please don't bring that up again because I've made it clear. Its an added comfort and a positive reason to believe.

and its not up to atheists to prove that god isn't real? Whats the point of this thread? It isn't a debate if you all just sit and wait for the opposition to present a side and try to destroy it. That's all fine and dandy, but I don't see any of you saying anything that we can shoot down and try to argue. So it seems extremely one sided an attack. Thats not a debate thats waiting to shoot someone down. Debates go both ways.

yah many people do think its logical, but a lot of people see that its really illogical. This can go both ways. I never said it couldn't. My point was not that it was the only view, but being illogical? No duh, we KNOW thats a view point. sorry for not making that clear.

and I never said I was one to tell you what god's plans are...I said those are what I felt God's plans are for my life. I never dismissed them. Again, its all what I feel, and because its based off spiritual feelings I don't foce this view on anyone.

Just because the bible has some contradictions doesn't mean that its ALL false, I believe for the most part is it pretty accurate, while it can be changed over a long period of time, its still fairly accurate. To dismiss an entire book that is the base of many religions solely because of a few simple contradictions that can be looked past isn't a very smart move in my opinion.

scientific and social advancement? really? we're stopping someone who doesn't believe from making an advancement? I know your probably referring to controversies like stem cell research or things of the like, but in all reality....do you really believe one group of people(believers) is going to be able to stop any scientific advancement or social advancement(social advancement is held by back many groups.....not just religious people....) by itself? I don't think so. It hasn't stopped us from advancing so far and as less and less people believe it seems that it will only continue to stay out of the way. Religious people can tend to whine about topics sometimes, but they don't stop it. We whine about abortion all the time, yet it still goes on. Not saying this is an advancement, I'm saying we can try to fight something and it still not work. What will be done...is going to be done regardless of the people who are religious.

haha, rather harsh statement with the church and parents brainwashing me. I am just going to straight up say you are completely wrong. I don't believe because my parents or church forced me into and once again, you are stereotyping believers. Which is the flaw of all these arguments. I believe on my own terms. I have looked into most religions. NOT just christianity and have compared them all. I know a bit about everything, but am most well schooled in my own obviously. I'm not an ignorant fool. Quit stereotyping christians as blind followers because we follow what we believe in just as much as the next person and still have minds of our own.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I just don't know."

If you've noticed I've never once said one reason why you all should believe in God. I never said you had to or if it was the only way. I only defended (because of this topic asks how could anyone believe in god) myself and my beliefs. Yet the people who say "I just don't know" are also saying "but I do know your thought process is illogical and not the way to go" Which kinda contradicts what you said. I know there's a lot of other theories out there. I'm aware there are alternatives to believing in a God. And hey if you believe those, go ahead. I have what my spirit feels and thats why I believe. I'm not close minded though. If something I read is factual and can be prove or even if religion is proven to be false in some way I won't deny it. I won't pretend its not happening. No one can prove religion is false yet though. No one can explain the universe, so why cut my views down because I take a side differing than yours?

 

[GhostAnime]

for the MILLIONTH time, I DO NOT BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER.

Please don't bring that up again because I've made it clear. Its an added comfort and a positive reason to believe.

gotcha.

To dismiss an entire book that is the base of many religions solely because of a few simple contradictions that can be looked past isn't a very smart move in my opinion.

well after so many contradictions and lack of evidence to support it, that's all it really is: a silly book.

i mean some books don't even have contradictions like the bible does.. beowulf was written pretty good. does he exist now?

 

[arrowhead]

people have their views with RELIGION, so don't try to change those. Obviously radicals and people have a negative effect should maybe be steered in another direction if possible, but religion has and always will be an endless debate where if someone believes, you know darn well you pretty much aren't going to change them.

this is completely wrong. there are tons of atheists who were former christians. there's even a guy on smashboards who turned atheist because of this debate (i forget who though, i think he posted in crimson's thread "why should i believe in god"

second, for the MILLIONTH time, I DO NOT BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER. Nor am I saying all christians do. Geeze people, read what the hell I'm saying. This is extremely frustrating when people post without even reading everything I'm saying I feel. I feel your reading more for what to attack rather than trying to hear what I'm saying. I believe because of the spiritual connection(theres a word that might clear up what I'm trying to say) I get when I pray. There. Please don't bring that up again because I've made it clear. Its an added comfort and a positive reason to believe.

and you think the spiritual connection is illogical?

and its not up to atheists to prove that god isn't real? Whats the point of this thread? It isn't a debate if you all just sit and wait for the opposition to present a side and try to destroy it. That's all fine and dandy, but I don't see any of you saying anything that we can shoot down and try to argue. So it seems extremely one sided an attack. Thats not a debate thats waiting to shoot someone down. Debates go both ways.

debates about existence can't "go both ways". it is ALWAYS up to the person making the claim to present his argument and defend it. it's impossible to PROVE something doesn't exist, but as long as there's no reason to, you shouldn't believe it.

and I never said I was one to tell you what god's plans are...I said those are what I felt God's plans are for my life. I never dismissed them. Again, its all what I feel, and because its based off spiritual feelings I don't foce this view on anyone.

but you just did: "Hitler and the Nazis believed they were doing God's work, but anyone else who actually knows the religion would be able to tell you that wasn't the case...or anyone with a brain for that matter." your view is that god wouldn't do anything like that and you were presenting it as fact

Just because the bible has some contradictions doesn't mean that its ALL false, I believe for the most part is it pretty accurate, while it can be changed over a long period of time, its still fairly accurate. To dismiss an entire book that is the base of many religions solely because of a few simple contradictions that can be looked past isn't a very smart move in my opinion.

well first, the bible has more than just some contradictions. it doesn't mean the bible is all false, but it does mean you can't rely on it for facts. how do you know the bible isn't wrong about god? you wouldn't.

speaking of contradicitons:

how is this:
1. god is all powerful and all knowing
2. god decides to create our universe
3. god knows exactly what is going to happen in every universe he thinks about creating before he creates it
4. god chose to create the specific universe where adam and eve sin
5. god gets angry because adam and eve sin

different from this:
1. a programmer, joe decides to create a video
2. joe decides to create a video of people walking in circles
3. joe succesfully creates a video where people walk in circles
4. joe gets angry at how the people don't walk in straight lines.
(credits to snex)

also, you wouldn't say the people in the program have free will, so why would you say we have free will when under the condition that the christian god exists?

scientific and social advancement? really? we're stopping someone who doesn't believe from making an advancement? I know your probably referring to controversies like stem cell research or things of the like, but in all reality....do you really believe one group of people(believers) is going to be able to stop any scientific advancement or social advancement(social advancement is held by back many groups.....not just religious people....) by itself? I don't think so. It hasn't stopped us from advancing so far and as less and less people believe it seems that it will only continue to stay out of the way. Religious people can tend to whine about topics sometimes, but they don't stop it. We whine about abortion all the time, yet it still goes on. Not saying this is an advancement, I'm saying we can try to fight something and it still not work. What will be done...is going to be done regardless of the people who are religious.

i never said it stopped advancement, only slows it down. you are very wrong about religion not having a large effect on politics. 80% of americans call themselves christian. how can you tell me their views aren't heavily expressed in a democratic system?

haha, rather harsh statement with the church and parents brainwashing me. I am just going to straight up say you are completely wrong. I don't believe because my parents or church forced me into and once again, you are stereotyping believers. Which is the flaw of all these arguments. I believe on my own terms. I have looked into most religions. NOT just christianity and have compared them all. I know a bit about everything, but am most well schooled in my own obviously. I'm not an ignorant fool. Quit stereotyping christians as blind followers because we follow what we believe in just as much as the next person and still have minds of our own.

well good for you how you studied other religions and chose to pick christianity, but that's not the case for most people. children are easily influenced, and as long as they grew up in an environment that is supportive of christianity, they're usually not going to oppose it, despite all the evidence against it.

No one can prove religion is false yet though. No one can explain the universe, so why cut my views down because I take a side differing than yours?

there are a LOT of things that can't be proven false, but that doesn't mean you should believe in it. and i don't really care how you believe in god, but as long as your're posting here i'm going to point out the flaws in your arguments

 

[Deleted member]

i assumed you were talking about christianity since that's your religion

Well, this is news to me. I'll have you know my religious views parameter on Facebook strictly reads "Bacon", not "Christianity". I'm debating whether or not I should put "Super Nintendo" there, if you must know.

Since when am I Christian? I was born and raised in a Catholic household, but that doesn't mean I identify with Christianity. For the record, I don't.

God exists in your mind(s) alone.


There is always a chance of making it through cancer alive. "Miracles" as you call them, do happen in practice. But I don't see the point of brainwashing yourself to think that he will definitely survive, on Earth or in Heaven.
.

You should speak for yourself and only yourself.

 

[marthanoob]

The thing is...everyone who says the idea of a God is illogical is missing one vital point.

OF COURSE IT IS ILLOGICAL. a creator? I mean honestly, what's logical about something with that much power and control. People don't believe in God because its logical....we know that. Quit reiterating the same ideas...over...and over...and over. Just because something is illogical doesn't mean it isn't right.

Wow. That was unexpected.
Imagine being locked in a metal house with no view of outside. You believe your father is outside the house, but you have never been outside the house, so you have no conception of outside, you cannot sense the father throught sight, hearing, taste, touch, or smell, you think he made you, you think he is very like you, you think he knows about you and controls you. The thought that he is there makes you feel better.
You think you are right.

are you seriously about to compare someone as drastic as hitler(and the nazis) to someone believing in the comfort of religion? I already stated, that I believe its wrong for Christians to force their views on everyone and for anyone religious for that matter. Hitler and the Nazis believed they were doing God's work, but anyone else who actually knows the religion would be able to tell you that wasn't the case...or anyone with a brain for that matter. Radicals are obviously considered extreme for a reason, they are usually taking what they believe in to levels they shouldn't. (in most cases at least)

I was not taking it in context and it was for humorous purposes.

I don't appreciate the sarcasm. Granted, if you REALLY did believe that I wouldn't try to go out of my way to change that unless I felt you were open to the idea. If you were steadfast it would be a waste of time and all me and you would do is argue. Spirituality, the funny thing about it is...its personal to that individual person. No logic, nobody can take that away from the person. And what you all fail to grasp is that is an empowering feeling, it makes you feel a lot more safe and secure. You have something no one can touch, but you(to some extent). If you get what im trying to say you would know I am not implying that people who believe in God feel they have him all to themselves, they feel that no one can take that feeling away from them because its spiritual. So spiritually if you felt there was a pink unicorn watching over you....as obviously unbacked that would be, I couldn't take that away from you. I could tell you "what makes you think that? you have nothing to even support that". I could tell you that unicorns have been fictionally made up by man...but could that singlehandedly change your spiritual feeling? the answer is no.

Whatever you think about my pink unicorn example is what I think about your God.

Granted, most people do not believe in something that doesn't have something backing it up(at least a little logic) unless they are crazy or have a unique case that makes them believe that. For christians, that logic is the consistency of the bible.(and please don't begin to point out its contradictions....we are all WELL aware of them....by consistency I mean that it was written by different many over long periods of time, but still consistently presents the same idea. but I don't want to turn this into a debate on the bible..) and among many other factors I won't get into right now because if I did this already too long of a post would be drastically long.

I maintain that the Bible is a control mechanism, and you can't take that away from me no matter what logic you present. Ok, I'll stop with the sarcasm, but I do believe it is a control mechanism.

First things first, I stated that it is an added comfort, I do not believe because it makes me feel better. I believe because of the spiritual feelings I get when I pray to God.

Same thing.

Weak? Tell me the drawbacks of believing in God and how they outweigh the positives of having comfort that you can get nowhere else and I'll gladly see your side on this.

Ignoring clear logic. Believing in an incredibly rigid, outdated moral system created a thousand years ago. Having the illusion of power. Having the illusion of immortality. Repeatedly brainwashing the next generation (not necessarily you, just the people who believe in God for almost no reason at all).
Actually, I would have no problem with you all if you followed Christ's teachings with no leeway. Then you wouldn't be such a nuisance.

brainwashing myself? who said I was believing he would make it through. its hoping with a feeling I get from God. The thing is, people who truly follow God no that whatever will happen...is gonna happen. God doesn't intervene. Which is where most of you people are drastically misconstrued on what we pray for. What we pray for is acceptance with reality. We pray for God to prepare us for whatever we feel he has planned(or as a logical person would say, what is about to happen) I knew that if he was going to die, praying wasn't going to change that, but I prayed that if he did...I would be able to handle it. So thats definitely not brainwashing myself.

I thought you convinced yourself that he would survive, like other Christians do. Sorry about that misconception.
You can accept reality without praying. I don't see what's so hard about it.

and I apologize to everyone if I feel overly defensive or harsh, but I just want someone to actually present something thats "logical" since thats what everyone seems to be preaching so much. Rather than attack my views, present some of your own. What are some alternatives to their not being God? Do you have anything out there?

Honestly, pantheism (Everything is God) makes so much more sense to me than theism.
I'm currently an Agnostic (we will never know if God is real or not) Skeptic (without evidence I will always doubt the claim).

You should speak for yourself and only yourself.

I don't follow. Please clarify.

 

[Deleted member]

I told arrowhead to speak for himself. You made the stupid comment, not him. By saying "we", he grouped himself with you.

 

[chucklesXcore]

these posts are getting ridiculously long and kinda difficult for me since I have to quote two people so I'll just try to defend myself without quotes for the time being since I don't want to get any mix-ups going on...

to arrowhead, if someone is easily swayed by topics on a forum, then their foundation for their belief wasn't strong to begin with. I'm not saying the side presented wasn't logical or enough for them to be swayed, but anyone who is strong in their faith and feels the spirit(which non-believers will never get this) strongly they will stand firm in their beliefs. I definitely do believe that everyone should be open minded and I am not saying all christians should stay that way if they don't truly believe in it anymore. I am just saying anyone who is obviously firm in their views...its just not worth trying to cut their beliefs down if you know they have legitimate reasons behind their beliefs. Which I am one of those people. Despite what you think, what I feel is just as real as what is logically happening. To me, my spirit is just as much a part of me as the physical me. And thats all I'm really saying.

And yes, spiritual connections are well, illogical, one cannot explain them. They unapprovable, and you can't see or touch them. They are just something you feel inside yourself. And usually, for most people, guys in particular...(not being sexist, but if you took psychology you would know that guys go more off logic than girls) they go off logic, which would make just the spiritual feelings you get seem miniscule and not really enough to make you believe. But to me, my spirit is the biggest part of what I choose to believe. So, while that may not be the logical choice, its what I feel is right for me. I'm not saying its right for everyone, but its definitely right for myself. And the point of this? To say, that there are people who have legitimate reasons to believe. This to me, is a legitimate reason, not everything has to be logical to be a legitimate reason why you believe in something. This whole thread is about "how can anyone believe in god?" well thats my answer, if you can find a way to tear that apart go for it, but chances are you can't since you yourself do not feel anything spiritually. And before anyone jumps the gun and is saying being religious is the only way to be spiritual, I mean about believing in there being a God. If you don't believe, you cannot relate to the spiritual feeling because if you felt it, you would believe. And you don't.

about the hitler thing, come on, anyone familiar with the spirit of god knows he wouldn't want a genocide on his own people. He's done some messed up things...and especially in the old testament, but if you have read exodus(which I doubt you have since your unfamiliar with what you flame most likely) you would know that God states nothing like what happened in that chapter would ever happen again. Killing everyone? Pretty darn similar to the events that happened. I doubt they would happen again. Maybe you should read into religion on a neutral standpoint(not for the spiritual side)

and you can't rely on just the bible for pure facts, but to me I rely on my own spirit to guide me when it comes to reading it. As hypocritical as it may sound, I take what I feel is right for me from the bible and leave it at that. I take a lot of heat from the christian community for this viewpoint, but I don't blindly follow the bible word for word and agree with everything in. I pray about everything and also use my brain a bit on some of those contradictions believe it or not.

about the contradictions thing...don't really get what your trying to imply there....sorry.

and as for politics.....yah 80% of totally biased christians right? because all christians let their religion decide how they vote. yep, thats exactly why huckabee is our presidential candidate for the republicans. oh wait a minute...he isnt. not all christians are blind followers.

and I know thats not the case for most people, which I think isn't right myself. I do wish people would believe because of what they honestly feel is right. but unfortunately people go with what is comfort. Its not the evidence against it, its all the other perspectives you can take. Usually you go with whats presented, however...I must admit in teens most of us don't seem to believe in a God anymore. The number of Agnostics and Atheists just keeps rising it seems. I hardly knew any people who were christian AND practiced it. People who "believe" in God that you are talking about, usually just blindly believe. They haven't tried to feel the spirit and they are the ones who doubt and are easily pushed over because they haven't looked into it. They are the ones(sometimes, not all the time) that when something goes bad they ask "why would god let this happen" and I think thats where most "christians" are flawed. God isn't the reason behind everything in my own opinion. Quite different than what you probably thought I believed huh?

And as for the "flaws" in my argument. You are presenting the logical stand point, which as a christian I have admitted is there, but I don't care about. How is that a flaw in my argument. I'm not arguing believing in God is logical. I'm arguing that people can believe because of what they feel in their spirit. If you can take a spiritual feeling away from someone or prove that those are false, or find evidence that spiritual feelings aren't real or something dramatic. hell anything. I'd more than be happy to say my argument is more than flawed. It'd be destroyed. I'd have nothing to say back. But the thing is. you can't. the beauty of it is, spiritual feelings are self specific to that person, and that person only. so there's no counter argument you can really say that destroys that, which is why I say people have a right to believe in God and its not "stupid". Its illogical in some ways, but its definitely a perspective one should be able to take without a slew of criticism.


and as for you marthanoob...since this already ridiculously long I'll try to keep this short, but knowing as passionate as I am about how I feel, it probably won't be. sorry.

first, your absolutely right. I do think I am right based off everything I feel. Logical? No. Undeniable reason to believe in God...yes.

The bible doesn't control me, if someone lets it be a control mechanism they are not living their lives the way they should. but thats just my own perspective.

And I do have no leeway, I don't encourage anyone to be anything they are not. I have my own spirit and if people want to believe in God they can. Its all your choice. I'm not a nuisance. that was a little rude IF thats what you were saying. but I'm not someone who believes everyone should believe in God for the same reasons I do. I'm defending people who also believe in God because of what they feel spiritually. which is what everyone tries to destroy yet I see nobody coming back with anything except logic, which I already explained...does not matter when it comes to spirituality since its based mostly off what you feel. Your logic is just used for how you live your life not necessarily every little thing you believe in. At least for me. Not saying this applies to everyone, but to anyone who believes, I can confidently say that I think most aren't swayed by simple logic. The only logic that could sway someone is factual evidence. something that proves there isn't a god. Because until then, we are going to feel what we feel. You can't change that. you can give us your perspective, which we will take whole heartedly and understand, but what we feel tells us otherwise. sorry.

and for being agnostic, I can see why. For one, you are absolutely right. We will never be able to prove it. Which is why I keep making the same point which everyone is not getting. I'm not trying to prove God. I'm saying, those who go off logic will most likely not believe in God, and those who go off their spiritual feelings and do feel something will have a legitimate reason to believe in God. which, again, answers the question to this thread.

 

[arrowhead]

about the hitler thing, come on, anyone familiar with the spirit of god knows he wouldn't want a genocide on his own people. He's done some messed up things...and especially in the old testament, but if you have read exodus(which I doubt you have since your unfamiliar with what you flame most likely) you would know that God states nothing like what happened in that chapter would ever happen again. Killing everyone? Pretty darn similar to the events that happened. I doubt they would happen again. Maybe you should read into religion on a neutral standpoint(not for the spiritual side)

god claimed himself to be all loving, yet he did horrible things to undeserving people. how do you know he'll keep his word?

and you can't rely on just the bible for pure facts, but to me I rely on my own spirit to guide me when it comes to reading it. As hypocritical as it may sound, I take what I feel is right for me from the bible and leave it at that. I take a lot of heat from the christian community for this viewpoint

i'm not saying you do this, but a lot of people do this to justify their actions and beliefs, which is completely bs

about the contradictions thing...don't really get what your trying to imply there....sorry.

i was just pointing out a flaw in the christian god

and as for politics.....yah 80% of totally biased christians right? because all christians let their religion decide how they vote. yep, thats exactly why huckabee is our presidential candidate for the republicans. oh wait a minute...he isnt. not all christians are blind followers.

no, but with that many christians in the US, their general opinion is going to affect our legislation

And as for the "flaws" in my argument. You are presenting the logical stand point, which as a christian I have admitted is there, but I don't care about. How is that a flaw in my argument. I'm not arguing believing in God is logical. I'm arguing that people can believe because of what they feel in their spirit. If you can take a spiritual feeling away from someone or prove that those are false, or find evidence that spiritual feelings aren't real or something dramatic. hell anything. I'd more than be happy to say my argument is more than flawed. It'd be destroyed. I'd have nothing to say back. But the thing is. you can't. the beauty of it is, spiritual feelings are self specific to that person, and that person only. so there's no counter argument you can really say that destroys that, which is why I say people have a right to believe in God and its not "stupid". Its illogical in some ways, but its definitely a perspective one should be able to take without a slew of criticism.

you may not accept logical arguments outside the religion, but some of the flaws are inconsistencies within the teachings of the religion. surely they should cast doubt in your belief of the validity of christianity? or do you just pretend the inconsistencies aren't there? but even if we do come up with "proof" that your spiritual feelings are no more than normal feelings you attributed to your religion, i doubt you'll accept it. religions always have an answer (no matter how illogical) to anything that contradicts it; my personal favorite being "god did it."

i don't care how people believe in a god, but i do think taking up a religion is in most ways harmful to society as a whole. this is just to clear up my view since we've been discussing both christianity and god as if they were the same subject.

 

[chucklesXcore]

god claimed himself to be all loving, yet he did horrible things to undeserving people. how do you know he'll keep his word?


i'm not saying you do this, but a lot of people do this to justify their actions and beliefs, which is completely bs

you may not accept logical arguments outside the religion, but some of the flaws are inconsistencies within the teachings of the religion. surely they should cast doubt in your belief of the validity of christianity? or do you just pretend the inconsistencies aren't there? but even if we do come up with "proof" that your spiritual feelings are no more than normal feelings you attributed to your religion, i doubt you'll accept it. religions always have an answer (no matter how illogical) to anything that contradicts it; my personal favorite being "god did it."

i don't care how people believe in a god, but i do think taking up a religion is in most ways harmful to society as a whole. this is just to clear up my view since we've been discussing both christianity and god as if they were the same subject.

Because if you follow religion God has pretty much followed through with his word every time. If he said he was going to do something to undeserving people, he did. If he said this would never happen again, it never would. I haven't seen God make any false promises. Textually speaking at least.

You see, there are flaws in religion, not believing in God. While I consider myself a christian, I don't follow every single teaching because I am more than willing to admit that religion is flawed. To me, I believe in the idea of a God, but I believe man is so corrupt they can never and will never have a fully accurate religion. And even though the bible says "the church will return to its roots" this is one of the things I have a hard time believing because man is so corrupt I don't ever see the church being pure. It will always twist things to its favoring and teach the word wrong. Religion is more than flawed and why I don't attend church. God is not. Thats my view. Which is kind of what I'm saying. I'm not so much defending religion as I am defending a person's right to believe in there being a God. Which I feel should be taken solely by the individual not coerced and pressured by a church, parents, or any other outside influence. Sure, its nice to have fellowship and share what you know with people, but I always stop and leave it at the point where the person still has to make a decision and find out about God on their own. I feel each person should have their own perspective and there is no "correct" religion. They're all flawed. If anyone of them were flawlessly right I'd honestly be surprised.

 

[Crimson King]

Because if you follow religion God has pretty much followed through with his word every time. If he said he was going to do something to undeserving people, he did. If he said this would never happen again, it never would. I haven't seen God make any false promises. Textually speaking at least.

You bounced around there. First you said he followed through with his word, but cited no examples. Secondly, you say he never makes false promises, textually (? whatever that truly means).

Basically, you are saying that as long as you believe in him, he makes sense.

 

[marthanoob]

and as for you marthanoob...since this already ridiculously long I'll try to keep this short, but knowing as passionate as I am about how I feel, it probably won't be. sorry.

I have no objections.

And I do have no leeway, I don't encourage anyone to be anything they are not. I have my own spirit and if people want to believe in God they can. Its all your choice. I'm not a nuisance. that was a little rude IF thats what you were saying.

I was not talking directly to you. I was talking to the general Christian population.

and for being agnostic, I can see why. For one, you are absolutely right. We will never be able to prove it. Which is why I keep making the same point which everyone is not getting. I'm not trying to prove God. I'm saying, those who go off logic will most likely not believe in God, and those who go off their spiritual feelings and do feel something will have a legitimate reason to believe in God. which, again, answers the question to this thread.

You probably saw this question coming far in advance. What makes you trust your feelings so much? I'm sure you know that humans are not built to "feel" for the answer. Brains are designed to dissect information and perception, and not ESP.

You bounced around there. First you said he followed through with his word, but cited no examples. Secondly, you say he never makes false promises, textually (? whatever that truly means).

Basically, you are saying that as long as you believe in him, he makes sense.

Which is circular logic. Chuckles, I simply cannot comprehend how you do it.

 

[Crimson King]

I don't understand your response to my quote.

 

[marthanoob]

I don't understand your response to my quote.

Basically, you are saying that as long as you believe in him, he makes sense.

He makes sense as long as you believe him is circular logic. Of course he would.
He needs to make sense before you believe, not after.

 

[EC_Joey]

He makes sense as long as you believe him is circular logic. Of course he would.
He needs to make sense before you believe, not after.

Wrong. It doesn't make sense logically, and yet many believe in the concept of God.

 

[marthanoob]

Wrong. It doesn't make sense logically, and yet many believe in the concept of God.

Fine, he doesn't "need" to. But logically, he needs to. You get my point.

 

[chucklesXcore]

You bounced around there. First you said he followed through with his word, but cited no examples. Secondly, you say he never makes false promises, textually (? whatever that truly means).

Basically, you are saying that as long as you believe in him, he makes sense.

ah, sorry for not citing anything from the bible. I figured, anyone who has read the bible here would know that the entire bible shows God going through with his word. But if you want some examples. I'll cite without exact quotes because what I'll use will make sense. Using the most mainstream examples so people don't get confused, I'll say this:

God said that if man kept up sinning the way they were there would be a flood....and sure enough there was. (by textually, I meant in the bible. It may have been a made up word. but I figure people would have gotten that. My apologies there) Yes, the Noah's ark ordeal.

God stated that after the plagues of Egypt, nothing of that extreme would be done again. And if you finish the bible and know history...there hasn't been anything that drastic again. There have been bad things where there have been more deaths. Not to take away from anything like the holocaust...which is horrible, but it wasn't at God's hand.

God promised the Israelites they would reach the promised land. But he also, promised moses he wouldn't because of something he and aaron did. Aaron received death for what he did and Moses would lead and see the promise land from afar, but never enter it. I mean...honestly the list goes on. Thats god saying "I'm going to do this" and what does he do? He does. The israelites reached the promised land. If you take some time just to become familiar with the bible for debate purposes, you would maybe understand better what I'm saying.

And I'm not saying as long as you believe in him, he makes sense. If you feel something, then it would make sense to have a legitimate reason to believe in him. What you feel spiritually is something you cannot control in my own opinion. If there were cold hard facts that there wasn't a God, I could not spiritually feel something because there would be no such thing. I also can't make myself feel something when I pray. I either do or I don't. Usually I do if I'm legitimately praying. Which just reassures me that there is a God. I'm not implying that everyone has to follow this mindset, but I am saying this is how some people live. A lot of christians, all they really need is the spiritual reassurance. Which again, cannot be taken away by anyone. So this is how someone can believe in God. A real answer to the question.

and both you and marthanoob. I see what you are saying about circular logic, but I see that I started believing and have always had my times of doubt and struggling to keep believing. But one thing keeps me believing is the spiritual feeling I get. I hear you saying "what makes you trust your feelings so much?", but for the quick answer I cannot really give you a reason. As I stated before there are people that go off logic and there are people that go more off their feelings. I have always been more of a feeling type person. I'm not completely illogical, but usually if I feel something its been safe to trust it. It takes a lot of logic to take away what I'm feeling. I mean, all I've heard is a lot of skepticism and nothing that could show me that what I"m feeling is stupid. Its illogical, but its not stupid to believe in the concept of a God since no one can prove it either way. Its still a possibility. Everyone's just skeptical thats all. Its just usually going off my gut feeling hasn't been wrong. I will be the first Christian to admit that there very well could not be a god and I could be wrong, but just because there couldn't doesn't mean I have to not believe. This isn't a debate about "is there really a god?" its "how can anyone believe in god?" and I believe I'm trying to answer that, but everyone keeps trying to tell me how God isn't real with stuff that doesn't pertain to someone who bases things off his spiritual feelings.

 

[arrowhead]

God said that if man kept up sinning the way they were there would be a flood....and sure enough there was. (by textually, I meant in the bible. It may have been a made up word. but I figure people would have gotten that. My apologies there) Yes, the Noah's ark ordeal.

what about the innocent individuals? they died.

God stated that after the plagues of Egypt, nothing of that extreme would be done again. And if you finish the bible and know history...there hasn't been anything that drastic again. There have been bad things where there have been more deaths. Not to take away from anything like the holocaust...which is horrible, but it wasn't at God's hand.

god, with unending knowledge and power, did nothing to stop or prevent the holocaust. he just as well caused it.

if you believe that god is all powerful, all knowing, and created the universe, he caused EVERYTHING.

If there were cold hard facts that there wasn't a God, I could not spiritually feel something because there would be no such thing.

the christian god doesn't exist (as christians view it). that's a fact.

I also can't make myself feel something when I pray. I either do or I don't. Usually I do if I'm legitimately praying. Which just reassures me that there is a God. all I've heard is a lot of skepticism and nothing that could show me that what I"m feeling is stupid.

stupid is subjective. what you believe is stupid from a logical standpoint. you feel something and you attribute it automatically to your religion without thinking of any other possibilities.

Its illogical, but its not stupid to believe in the concept of a God since no one can prove it either way. Its still a possibility. Everyone's just skeptical thats all. Its just usually going off my gut feeling hasn't been wrong.

the existence of invisible unicorns can't be proven false either. but you would think any adult who believes in them is crazy. and i'm sure your gut feelings have been wrong many times before, just not about your religion because it makes it so your gut feelings can never be wrong, which should say something about your religion.

 

[chucklesXcore]

what about the innocent individuals? they died.


god, with unending knowledge and power, did nothing to stop or prevent the holocaust. he just as well caused it.

if you believe that god is all powerful, all knowing, and created the universe, he caused EVERYTHING.


the christian god doesn't exist (as christians view it). that's a fact.


stupid is subjective. what you believe is stupid from a logical standpoint. you feel something and you attribute it automatically to your religion without thinking of any other possibilities.


the existence of invisible unicorns can't be proven false either. but you would think any adult who believes in them is crazy. and i'm sure your gut feelings have been wrong many times before, just not about your religion because it makes it so your gut feelings can never be wrong, which should say something about your religion.

innocent individuals, the WHOLE world wsa full of sinners. Noah was only allowed to live because he was pure and truly followed God. If you read the bible. you would know there was no "innocent" people. Maybe innocent animals...I'll give you that. but no innocent people. God however HAS killed innocent people in exodus. But he said he would. and followed through with it. my point wasn't that god has never harmed an innocent person, but that he is true to his word.

Really, if i believe God created everything, and everything is his fault, then HOORAY! I'm not to blame for anything I do. If I go out, to your house, kill you in cold blood...its not my fault. it's god because he created me right? He is just going to stop everyone who does anything bad! because thats what he does, rather than punish the individuals who live bad life styles. The fact is, god no longer intervenes. If you read the bible or understood the concept of god, which you don't. you would know that. So to say, why would god allow that? Why the hell are people so messed up that he should have to? God doesn't control anything. He gave us BRAINS for a reason. To make decisions. From the beginning man has been tempted by power. He isn't going to stop us. He may have done some things back in the old testament, but now a days. God no longer intervenes. Your statement is weak and stereotypical of christians. That may sound harsh, but its true. Not every christian believes that God is the reason for everything.

wtf, the christian god isn't real. thats a fact? how the hell? you have the answer to everything? please...enlighten me.

and again, you assume with over half of your argument it seems. I accredit this to my religion, but I'm not a close minded arrogant prick. I've looked into many religions and the idea of their NOT being a god. After looking into it, I STILL believe. so quit stereotyping me for the hundredth time I'm so tired of it.

You see, all your argument is weak because your not arguing me. You ALL keep sayin

"you could very well be wrong"

really? wow. I didn't know that. I didn't have a brain.

This is my choice. My way to live. My reasoning to believe. Which is the whole point of this thread. How can anyone believe in God. Well here's one way a person can. I am well aware that there COULDN'T be a God, but this is a matter of personal preference and feeling that no one can take away from me. Please make a valid point that defeats this. So far the only person who seems to really be coming anywhere close is Crimson King and Marthanoob by saying my thinking is circular.

 

[riboflavinbob]

wtf, the christian god isn't real. thats a fact? how the hell? you have the answer to everything? please...enlighten me.

go to page 109

 

[snex]

its ironic that gods interventions are indirectly proportional to our understanding of science. just when we learn how to examine the world and see if miracle stories are true, god decides to stop making them happen.

what a COINCIDENCE! or maybe the reality is that these stories were superstition all along, and science is what reveals that fact to us. i mean come on, do you REALLY think a guy was born from a virgin and after dying, bodily rose again 3 days later? if i told you these things were true about abraham lincoln, youd laugh in my face, yet you take them seriously about a different historical figure.

 

[chucklesXcore]

its ironic that gods interventions are indirectly proportional to our understanding of science. just when we learn how to examine the world and see if miracle stories are true, god decides to stop making them happen.

what a COINCIDENCE! or maybe the reality is that these stories were superstition all along, and science is what reveals that fact to us. i mean come on, do you REALLY think a guy was born from a virgin and after dying, bodily rose again 3 days later? if i told you these things were true about abraham lincoln, youd laugh in my face, yet you take them seriously about a different historical figure.

Seriously, this doesn't mean anything. Not to offend you, but if someone believes in the concept of a God that means that God can do ANYTHING he wants. (now he doesn't intervene anymore) So if he can do anything, don't you think he can kinda...idk...deny science, physics and everything....yah I think so.

all these scientists who test to try and prove stuff never really prove anything because the concept of a God is one that has complete control of what happens on earth.

and riboflavinbob, I read your post and even you yourself said it doesn't prove anything. Which is the entire point I'm making. Neither of us can prove anything. Its all based on what you believe and why you believe it. I'll say it once again, this thread ISNT "is god real" its "how can anyone believe in God?" well, I repeatedly keep answering that and people seem to try throw logic at someone who is basing it off of what they feel spiritually. I'd like to see something besides logic thrown at me if you got it. Not even so mucn not logic, because everything HAS to be logically, but something logical about why basing things off spirituality is absolutely wrong. I mean Crimson King and Marthanoob, both had some valid points, which while I don't agree with, were at least targeting the point I am making and not a point I'm NOT making.

 

[Chaco]

Seriously, this doesn't mean anything. Not to offend you, but if someone believes in the concept of a God that means that God can do ANYTHING he wants. (now he doesn't intervene anymore) So if he can do anything, don't you think he can kinda...idk...deny science, physics and everything....yah I think so.

all these scientists who test to try and prove stuff never really prove anything because the concept of a God is one that has complete control of what happens on earth.

and riboflavinbob, I read your post and even you yourself said it doesn't prove anything. Which is the entire point I'm making. Neither of us can prove anything. Its all based on what you believe and why you believe it. I'll say it once again, this thread ISNT "is god real" its "how can anyone believe in God?" well, I repeatedly keep answering that and people seem to try throw logic at someone who is basing it off of what they feel spiritually. I'd like to see something besides logic thrown at me if you got it. Not even so mucn not logic, because everything HAS to be logically, but something logical about why basing things off spirituality is absolutely wrong. I mean Crimson King and Marthanoob, both had some valid points, which while I don't agree with, were at least targeting the point I am making and not a point I'm NOT making.

Agreed.

Stick with the topic. This topic has a very easy answer. It's even one word. Faith. I don't know how many times it has been said. you try to disprove God. As xCore said, that is not the title.