How are you using Magnet?

[The_NZA]

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to know if anyone has had much look using Magnet in useful ways. I don't know what frames the hit comes out on, but it doesn't seme to punish shield grabbing, and I can't really combo with it great. How about you guys?

 

[GMaster171]

Magnet has a hitbox sending people at around a 45 degrees angle above Ness, the hitbox comes out on frame 9, rather slow. It does not work as a OOS options, due to even uair being faster. Because of the angle, its rather hard to combo off of it as well, any DI out, combined with the short hitstun and Ness' inability to immediately follow up, makes it near impossible to get anything off of it. It only does 4% damage, so its very inferior to almost every other move Ness has. I use it purely as a defensive tool: to stuff people who love approaching with projectiles (you can JC grab Falco quite often if he jumps in with a laser), or to stall falling speed to throw edge guards off.

This is just my opinion lol, using BB as a reference.

 

[SinisterB]

Magnet is pretty staple if you ask me. I like to use it in standard combos, to apply pressure after a hit's connected, or just general utility. Basic stuff like FAir -> Magnet -> DAir seems to work, or just Magnet -> DJC-A including against shields. I kind of like to think of it as maybe an aerial waveshine in the air, due to it's movement + hitbox, especially if it's wavebounced to switch up momentum (examples). This gives you some room to mess with an opponents reaction as well as carry them along for positional advantages similar to Wolf's shine, or just plain old reads with the hover. Other than that, it comes packed with a bunch of neat little tricks including instant ledge grabs and walks. Among other things. Multimagnet strings are pretty cool.

A few other notes from that match I referenced,

-the sequence after 2:30 shows Fox being pushed back to the right edge with the help of magnet
-Magnet can be used as a follow up to continue strings in some cases, at 3:20 and 3:43: in particular Ness could have opted for a Magnet to pop Fox up into the air (or maybe grab).
-it isn't always safe to try, noticeable in cases with missed follow ups like at 8:28 where Ness gets punished for whiffing DAir

Mag is generally pretty suitable for most cases, though there are definitely better options in lots of situations (Grab, Aerials, DTilt...) and is certainly punishable. Can be redundant. Still a very flexible tool that offers many different uses, from defense to offense, to gimmick.

Sorry for the lack of better examples, I'd of had to look thru hours of footage on Dazrin's stream to find better clips lol.

 

[The_NZA]

SinisterB. Teach me please. That video is the best ness video I've ever seen.
Just curious on how you did two things.
1. in the first match, you did some kind of a psimagnet to dsmash with no lag. How did you do that?
2. you did an instand djc dair to bair combo at the end of round.How did you pull it off so fast? DId you just x x down and a or did you use some other sequence to pull it off that fast. Because that was exceptionally fast control.

 

[Bryonato]

^ Seriously. Honestly B that is incredible how much control you have over that character. Teach us.

 

[Ganreizu]

Sinister has it pretty figured out. Magnet has unbelievable potential among the "shines" that were added to characters.

Has anyone noticed if you do magnet above a character and float down over them it does really high %/s? Easy rest punish, easier since jiggs is really small so more time to rack up damage. And you can still jump cancel out of it for a dair. There might be potential for pk fire -> magnet aura -> aerial combos, but it's pretty hard to get because if you do it wrong you'll shine them out of the fire and if you wait with the aura too long they'll punish you when the fire goes away. It might be easier to just pk fire -> pk flash, but i don't know if that works...

 

[MaxThunder]

They can get out of the fire too fast to get hit by flash...

 

[Bryonato]

They can get out of the fire too fast to get hit by flash...

I would think it would be possible to catch whichever direction they di with Flash correct?

 

[MaxThunder]

No cuz the flash moves too slowly and comes put too high... Even if they get fired above you they can get out and down before you hit them with a flash you explode asap...

 

[Ganreizu]

They can get out of the fire too fast to get hit by flash...

I fail to see a use for flash in that case. I know it doesn't put you in special fall anymore but i can't imagine when it would be advantageous for me to attempt on stage, especially since it often requires me to recover from very close to the bottom blast zones on any tournament stage and it doesn't really seem effective against recoveries of characters in general...but i guess this is all for another thread.

 

[MaxThunder]

Good when edge guarding... Gets a lot bigger when it's been out a while... Just gotta get a good read... I've also managed to techchase people on platforms with it...

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just use Magnet since it lets Ness turn around in the air. The hitbox part is more like a side effect of the move.

 

[Red(SP)]

I'll be honest, you can do the stuff he's doing with practice spent in training mode.

I guarantee if you spend time of just hitting yourself with the bolt of PKT in different angles, you'll be able to get some sick reads.
I guess it helped using him in vBrawl, lol. That's where a lot of my reads originated from, with the new mechanics presented in P:M.

My Ness is fairly solid, but the one thing I've been having issues performing in a manner when it's usable is the magnet > d-air thing, although just to get off the bat, I normally don't play against spacies or characters of that caliber, so my MU knowledge is rusty in those areas. I did gain some ideas from watching others. It's what I usually do when I have questions. :L

Is that string I mentioned MU dependent? That would probably be why I've been having such a pain pulling it off.
Either that or my execution is janky. I'm still on that 2.1 mode, lol.

EDIT: I'm sure it's just DJC in general now. I can't keep my consistency going for as long as I remember from the previous demo.

 

[SinisterB]

You guys are silly lol that match was awful but thanks for the love, made me feel all fuzzy inside <3

SinisterB. Teach me please. That video is the best ness video I've ever seen.
Just curious on how you did two things.
1. in the first match, you did some kind of a psimagnet to dsmash with no lag. How did you do that?
2. you did an instand djc dair to bair combo at the end of round.How did you pull it off so fast? DId you just x x down and a or did you use some other sequence to pull it off that fast. Because that was exceptionally fast control.

1. If you take a closer look you see that hover + magnet's momentum carried me across the slope, where I was able to land and "instantly" perform any action (similar to DJ land cancel), in this case DSmash
2. I have a few different set ups I like to use for my DJC,
DAir OoS I use: X + Tap + Cstick down followed by X + X + Cstick back for BAir

Sinister has it pretty figured out. Magnet has unbelievable potential among the "shines" that were added to characters.

Has anyone noticed if you do magnet above a character and float down over them it does really high %/s? Easy rest punish, easier since jiggs is really small so more time to rack up damage. And you can still jump cancel out of it for a dair. There might be potential for pk fire -> magnet aura -> aerial combos, but it's pretty hard to get because if you do it wrong you'll shine them out of the fire and if you wait with the aura too long they'll punish you when the fire goes away. It might be easier to just pk fire -> pk flash, but i don't know if that works...

I like the idea of non-flinch magnet as a good shield break punish, considering you can JC BThrow them immediately afterwards or DJC-A, or pretty much whatever. Sadly I haven't had any victims yet to try it on.

Fire -> Flash should never work unless the opponent is in a terrible situation or they're asleep at the controls

I just use Magnet since it lets Ness turn around in the air. The hitbox part is more like a side effect of the move.

Good way to get a feel for the move, that's how I started with it.

I'll be honest, you can do the stuff he's doing with practice spent in training mode.

I guarantee if you spend time of just hitting yourself with the bolt of PKT in different angles, you'll be able to get some sick reads.
I guess it helped using him in vBrawl, lol. That's where a lot of my reads originated from, with the new mechanics presented in P:M.

My Ness is fairly solid, but the one thing I've been having issues performing in a manner when it's usable is the magnet > d-air thing, although just to get off the bat, I normally don't play against spacies or characters of that caliber, so my MU knowledge is rusty in those areas. I did gain some ideas from watching others. It's what I usually do when I have questions. :L

Is that string I mentioned MU dependent? That would probably be why I've been having such a pain pulling it off.
Either that or my execution is janky. I'm still on that 2.1 mode, lol.

EDIT: I'm sure it's just DJC in general now. I can't keep my consistency going for as long as I remember from the previous demo.

yup practice up

Magnet --> DAir should be pretty universal, percents will defs vary

 

[Bryonato]

What is the proper input to "air-wavedash" with the magnet like you do in the video B?

 

[The_NZA]

Also, when you say DJ land cancel, what do you mean? dJCing any move and just lcancelling it purely for the purpose of geting on the ground?

 

[Ganreizu]

I like the idea of non-flinch magnet as a good shield break punish, considering you can JC BThrow them immediately afterwards or DJC-A, or pretty much whatever. Sadly I haven't had any victims yet to try it on.

Fire -> Flash should never work unless the opponent is in a terrible situation or they're asleep at the controls

Is non-flinch a reference to the first hit of mag? I know there are two hits, but i haven't really found a way to apply the two in a strategic way.

My favorite is magnet -> DJC bair. Or even better, magnet -> turn around -> DJC bair. It's kind of hard to do though...i think the opponent is too far away by the time you actually turn around.

My other favorite is still what i posted before though lol. It catches people SO off guard when you're coming down from a jump and you can still DJC magnet with rising fair and then come down with pk fire. Rising fair -> FF'd pk fire in general is amazing.

What is the proper input to "air-wavedash" with the magnet like you do in the video B?

I think it has something to do with momentum + turning around, but i haven't figured it out yet.

 

[GMaster171]

Think I can answer some things here lol, I'v begun using Magnet much like SinisterB does, and it works much better than I thought. I really retract some of my earlier statements, it is good comboing when you can, but still imo its not a go-to tool.

Also, when you say DJ land cancel, what do you mean? dJCing any move and just lcancelling it purely for the purpose of geting on the ground?

Ness can do the DJL like Peach, it just doesn't work off a instant DJ from the ground. if you jump, then wait till just before you land, and hit jump again, Ness will begin his 2nd jump, but land instead. This also works when jumping to platforms, and any time you are using DJ when pretty much on the ground, so in theory, it would work out of magnet, especially when you are flying towards a surface with the momentum.

Is non-flinch a reference to the first hit of mag? I know there are two hits, but i haven't really found a way to apply the two in a strategic way.

There is an initial hit that sends them away, this has been the focus of the thread, on how to use this hit to combo, setup or the such. There are also repeating hits while you hold the magnet out, which cause no flinch and do rapid damage (same kind of thing as Fox's lasers). So in practice you could use the holding hits to build free damage on say, a shield broken character, or a sleeping Jiggs.

I think it has something to do with momentum + turning around, but i haven't figured it out yet.

From what I'v seen, this air-wavedash happens due to Magnet resetting falling speed, but not horizontal momentum, meaning if you use it out of a dashing jump, you will basically fly a short distance. In addition, it also seems we can B-reverse it, meaning we can completely revers the horizontal momentum along with gaining this short flight span.

I only started using it 2 days ago, so forgive me (and correct me please) if I'm wrong.

 

[GMaster171]

Sorry for double post... Forum being dumb.

 

[Bryonato]

I've always struggled with B reversing non-side-b moves haha

 

[SinisterB]

GM171 explained things pretty well, but i'll still go over some stuff

What is the proper input to "air-wavedash" with the magnet like you do in the video B?

It can be as simple as Dash -> DownB Hold, all you're really aiming for is to carry your momentum with you in a quick burst in order to act out of it just as quickly. As such, combined with DJ (which retains all momentum throughout it) basically lets you decide again which direction you'd like to move; angle, height, and distance all in one. This is why using it with DJC is so powerful.

However if you want some real crazy momentum stuff, try throwing in some B-reverse. Meaning you will be doing it the opposite way you are facing. So if I was on FD, and dashed to the left, the input would look like; <- (dash) + Jump + DownB + -> and I would fly to the right.

If you've ever played Street Fighter, I feel like the motion is similar to your basic Down + Back + Punch/Kick

In other words, "this air-wavedash happens due to Magnet resetting falling speed, but not horizontal momentum, meaning if you use it out of a dashing jump, you will basically fly a short distance. In addition, it also seems we can B-reverse it, meaning we can completely revers the horizontal momentum along with gaining this short flight span".

-i hope SWF gets it's smash lab icons back, way easier to explain inputs.

Also, when you say DJ land cancel, what do you mean? dJCing any move and just lcancelling it purely for the purpose of geting on the ground?

As GM171 mentioned, a land cancel is quite literally when you use your double jump to land instantly somewhere, and cancel your landing lag. Most notably on platforms. The purpose of which would be to perform actions faster than you'd otherwise be able too with a waveland or normal full hop, or whatever. The magnet -> dsmash you saw takes from this property with help from the magnet hover, and is able to hit these land cancels at different angles. Usually across from said surface. I like to call them airwalks, seems appropriate.

 

[The_NZA]

I was messing around in training mode and I want to share some of my findings:

First, what SinisterB shared about his DJC methodology is IMMENSELY helpful. If you haven't already, try turning tap jump on, and go into training mode and hit "x/y up cstickaerial(up or down most useful)". It has been the easiest way for me to do aerials at horrifyingly fast speeds consistently (especially OOS). It makes you look like a technical badass and gives you other djc options than hitting x/y x/y aerial (unless you can consistently time everything equally which is unlikely for most of us).

Second, I think we should eventually make a psimagnet guide, but i have more questions. So, the inputs for an "air walk" to dsmash with a magnet incorporated is jump, when you almost have landed, psimagnet, jump, dsmash? Does that mean magnet has to come out as soon as you leave the ground? Can you do an double jump land by just mashing jump fast or do you have to execute the second jump as you are about to touch the ground?

Also sinster, please post more vids!

 

[Kink-Link5]

I've always struggled with B reversing non-side-b moves haha

To do a B-reversed down B the easiest way to explain it is to press down B then do a quick quarter circle backward.

To do an RBR down B input down and back, press B, then do a quarter circle forward, and finally tap backward to utilize your air control along with the momentum boost. You don't have to worry about the last part with Ness fortunately, as the magnet carries momentum and does not get influenced by air control.

 

[Bryonato]

Thanks much. I can now consistently b reverse my magnet.

 

[Ganreizu]

There is an initial hit that sends them away, this has been the focus of the thread, on how to use this hit to combo, setup or the such. There are also repeating hits while you hold the magnet out, which cause no flinch and do rapid damage (same kind of thing as Fox's lasers). So in practice you could use the holding hits to build free damage on say, a shield broken character, or a sleeping Jiggs.

I was talking about the two hits that actually cause knockback/hitstun/whathaveyou. Not sure if i'm confusing this second hit with a DoT hit that connected because the opponent was real far into the magnet though. I'm pretty sure there are two hits that cause shine effects, with the second hit having a longer come out period.

And i already said that in this thread, no need to repeat it to me unnecessarily.

 

[GMaster171]

Well you were asking about the two hits, which I took as the initial and the hold hits. Going by frame data from BB, this is a rundown of the move:
frames 1-8 are start up
frames 9-16, a hitbox is created around Ness sending opponents at a 45 degree angle in front of Ness.
any time after frame 10 can be JC'd
frame 17 it starts the flinchless loops. hits come every 10 frames, lasting 3 frames and dealing 2 damage.

So theres only one hit that has KB, but it lasts for a decent amount of time. this is probably what you are noticing.

Srry if I seemed like i was repeating what you said. I may have misunderstood your question. Hope this clears up whatever else you needed.

 

[Bryonato]

Sorry for all the questions but again in reference to the video is there a way to cancel magnet so you don't receive all of the end lag?

 

[The_NZA]

just jump cancel it/jump out of it. If you want to be on the ground, wavedash to the ground, so just wavedash out of it.

Your other options are, upon absorption (if you successfully absorbe a projectile), the game opens up new options for you: You can roll or spot dodge out of it, which gives you some good defensive options.

 

[The_NZA]

Sinister, I tried putting tap jump back on so i can do those instant dairs with x up cstick down, but in doing so, I lost my control of doing single jump uairs with consistency. Given ness's various jump options, I find my flexibility with jumping the most important thing. Is there another way to do fast djc dairs that you would recommend (outside of just tapping x really fast twice).

 

[GMaster171]

What do you mean by doing single jump uairs? SH? fH? It may be something you just need to adapt to. The problem with doing instant moves with double button clicks is the risk of doing rising instead of DJC (you cannot do a rising aerial with control stick, its one of the reasons why it works so well)

If you could describe what the problem is with doing the uair, we might help fix that, it seems to be easier to learn a jump timing instead of relearning DJC timing with a tighter window.

 

[The_NZA]

So basically, every time I uair I accidentally use my double jump. Using the cstick might be on way to remedy this, but when I am trying to follow someone after a dthrow, i usually cant get the jump and uair on cstick fast enough. One solution i've found is mapping jump to "b" (I use special on "y"). b is a lot easier to tap twice and prevent yourself from holding (probably because of its size or something else). I'm having more success hitting b twice and doing really short djc dairs (although still not as fast as the tap jump on method with the x up and cstickdown).

 

[GMaster171]

Huh, unfortunately I can't say I share the problem, and unfortunately, I cant really suggest much other than either get used to either tilting the control stick for uair, or using the c-stick. I personally do the latter consistently, and its not really difficult.

Srry for not really being able to help, I just feel as though tap jump DJC is almost necessary for Ness, as it allows him to do the lowest aerials possible as easily as possible.

 

[Bryonato]

Couldn't agree more. My Ness game improved exponentially when I turned tap-jump back on.

 

[The_NZA]

Maybe i'll keep working at it. But it's so infuriating to mess up an uair and not jump from it when you want to.

 

[Kink-Link5]

An important note to how the hitbox on PSI Mag works: Because the hitbox is rather large, it can hit while Ness is above the opponent. In much the same way that Fox can Shine -> grab easily on an opponent directly above him (Such as shine chain grabbing another space animal), Ness can hit the opponent with the lower bound of PSI magnet to get followups specific to that positional hit.

 

[The_NZA]

do you jump cancel the grab or do you wave dash into grab?

 

[The_NZA]

I've mapped b to jump, and now i have an easier time b -> cstick uair meaning I can turn tap jump on with great success. Thanks for the advice, guys!

 

[Nkguy01]

I like pivioting the magnet so that as Ness runs off the stage, he will quickly get back on. I feel like it's a good way to throw out an unsuspecting hitbox. It's also safe if you miss, and good at catching your opponent offguard.

If you're fast enough, you might try going for basic psi magnets to neutral air combos. Not sure if they're damage heavy, but it's really satisfying.

A way to edgeguard might involve Ness lighlty jumping and floating with the magnet, turning Ness around with the control sick, and back airing. Of course, if things go wrong, you'll be left with only your pkt2 recovery. You can also condition your opponent into thinking you'll back air, but instead of bairing, you can jump bump onto the stage and pk fire diagnolly, successfully catching your opponent offguard. Ness has so many moves that can be thrown out for the sake of being thrown out that I'm sure there are a zillion options. The magnet however, requires some thinking as it's not completley safe.


I also enjoy "juking" my opponent by lightly jumping, activating the magnet, and quickly jumping again and wavedashing in the opposite direction of my opponent.

 

[Kink-Link5]

do you jump cancel the grab or do you wave dash into grab?

You can Magnet and then JC, then JC Grab, yes. There's a small delay before you can JC the move, however.

 

[tripwire]

Is there a video demonstrating what Ness can do with his Magnet yet?