Hopes for the next major balance patch?

[JingleJangleJamil]

Honestly I feel like this thread might end up being locked,but I'm going to make it anyways in case it doesn't.

What character nerfs/buffs are you hoping for in whatever the next major balance patch will be? How do you think the character should be nerfed/buffed?

For me I want :

Nerfs: I hope gets nerfed by giving her moves less range and more ending lag to make some of her moves less safe and easier to punish. I also want to get nerfed, I haven't played against him enough to figure out exactly what makes him so good,but whatever it is I want it to be nerfed.

Buffs: I hope (this will probably NEVER happen) gets his range from brawl back. I also want to get buffed by making his up-b take him higher, decreased knockback on certain moves to increase his combo potential, more priority on the megavitamins (seriously just poking these things will make them disappear), make his dair spike, and finally increase horizontal knockback on d smash for a quick kill option.

Edit: Maybe not so much on the last buff with Doc, I literally just played a match using him and I got a kill with d smash when my opponent was at like 120% and I was at like 30% so my rage was pretty low.

Edit 2: I decided we should also discuss what changes we want in the engine. I want them to have more ending lag for air dodges and rolls to make them easier to punish. Air dodges are easier to punish in this game,but the window where they can't just do another air dodge is too small.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All I want is some Diddy ADJUSTMENTS

With Dr. Mario, I think Up Air could get a damage increase (to about 9-10%) and his run speed could go up to, say, Falco's, and he would be fine. If either of these these happen or both, he'd be fine. He's already very playable and okay as is though thanks to the removal of vectoring.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nerf Sheik, nerf diddy

ty

also buff some of the bad characters like default palutena and zelda and ganondork and boozer jr

Edit: and fix lucina so she's not just a worse version of marth

 

[RODO]

Instead of nerfing high tiers into the ground I hope they just buff some of the worse characters

 

[Nocally]

Problem With Dr. Mario is that changes to him might affect changes to Mario as well.

Personal Bias would be to nerf some of Yoshi´s hit and hurt boxes, they seem to trump a lot of characters with their weird properties , speed and damage output.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi is fine. Diddy Uair or Dthrow needs to be touched in all the wrong places with some Sonic nerfs thrown in there too.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Yoshi is fine. Diddy Uair or Dthrow needs to be touched in all the wrong places with some Sonic nerfs thrown in there too.

i agree with the diddy kong nerfs (i say decrease the knockback of Uair, so it doesn't kill as early, but still let it combo into itself, similar to c.falcon), but i don't think sonic needs nerfs.

 

[Ranias]

Return Bowsercide to the way it was or at least always go to sudden death.

 

[|RK|]

Not much. Unless some character turns out to be way too unfair, the game's fine to me. Many problems people are mentioning with certain characters haven't been tested enough.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Nerf diddy because he's already had his time to shine in Brawl, and honestly I feel he's one of the characters people hate to play against the most. He's just annoying and not fun to play against. I don't want to have to deal with diddy **** for another 6 years.

Hopefully they will be sure to fix diddy (assuming we aren't overestimating him right now), and that not nerfing him in 1.0.4 isn't a 100% sign that they won't in the future.

 

[Funkermonster]

My wishlist:

Nerfs:
Buffs:

Return to the way they were:

Engine changes:
- Bring back DACUS
- Decelerate rolls
- Maybe give a little more ending lag to air dodges?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

My wishlist:

Nerfs:
Buffs:

Return to the way they were:

Engine changes:
- Bring back DACUS
- Decelerate rolls
- Maybe give a little more ending lag to air dodges?

What specifically do you wan to be nerfed about Villager? What about Lucina and bowser jr. do you want to be buffed? Also i decided that I should also add engine changes to my OP.

 

[Lichi]

Nerf Sheik, nerf diddy

ty

also buff some of the bad characters like default palutena and zelda and ganondork and boozer jr

Edit: and fix lucina so she's not just a worse version of marth

Exactly this. Also make Diddy do less monkey noises.

 

[Spirst]

Please oh PLEASE fix Duck Hunt's smashes. It's so infuriating to get an fsmash only for the other player to be pushed back too far for the last knockback-dealing reticle to connect.

 

[Funkermonster]

What specifically do you wan to be nerfed about Villager? What about Lucina and bowser jr. do you want to be buffed? Also i decided that I should also add engine changes to my OP.

Villager, mostly nerf his Fair and Bair slingshot (at least their hitstun) and his UpB. Not only is his recovery partically godlike, but his Fair combined with his Lloyd Rockets make him a pain in the @ss to try and edgeguard. On a minor note, his bowling ball Fsmash seems to have strangely low endlag and seems pretty hard to punish consistently.

Bowser Jr, I pray to god that they fix his infinite jab combo so that the last hit can connect more reliably (people can jump out of or interrupt it), and maybe give him less knockback on one of his throws so he can combo out of them? Junior barely has any combos as far as I know.... Also fix the hitbox a little on his Fsmash, pretty bad hitbox that strangely whiffs sometimes even if your opponent is real close to you.

Lucina, I can't exactly think of specific buffs but what I want is her to be fixed so she isn't an inferior version of Marth. They're nearly identical to each other and have the same playstyle but her attacks are less safe on shield, can't kill as early as he can, and has slightly less range in her moves. She is better in the sense that she can get more consistent damage (which is important for some of her moves like her NeutralB, SideB, and Counter), but other that she doesn't seem to have many, if any, advantages over her great grandpa and is basically an inferior character in nearly every way, even if only by a little. It's kinda sad how this character has little to offer over her original, its like the creators intentionally made her worse than Marth or something! Basically give her anything that he wouldn't have so she's not too overshadowed by him. This might be asking for a little too much, but I would also like some changes to differentiate them more since they're pretty much the same character besides the tipper mechanic and height, and I think that's kinda lame.

And on a side note: I beg them to nerf Lucario's aura.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Zelda's neutral air needs far less landing lag, and ideally a bit more range. Also she needs her old up smash and down smash ranges back. And some adjustments to Phantom Slash so that its hitbox isn't so... wonky.

Samus needs a down smash that has at least some killing potential. Other than that, a 1-2% increase on each throw's damage (because with a grab like hers, she deserves a higher reward than what she's getting) and maybe make neutral air a little bit stronger knockback-wise.

 

[Bames-Jond]

Nerf Sheik, nerf diddy

ty

this really, and maybe rosalina. though I wouldn't say she's as close to being OP as sheik and diddy are.i here lucario is also apparently on that level but i've never played a good one so i don't know about him.

besides that just leave alone whatever ats that are still left -_-

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Villager, mostly nerf his Fair and Bair slingshot (at least their hitstun) and his UpB. Not only is his recovery partically godlike, but his Fair combined with his Lloyd Rockets make him a pain in the @ss to try and edgeguard. On a minor note, his bowling ball Fsmash seems to have strangely low endlag and seems pretty hard to punish consistently.

Bowser Jr, I pray to god that they fix his infinite jab combo so that the last hit can connect more reliably (people can jump out of or interrupt it), and maybe give him less knockback on one of his throws so he can combo out of them? Junior barely has any combos as far as I know.... Also fix the hitbox a little on his Fsmash, pretty bad hitbox that strangely whiffs sometimes even if your opponent is real close to you.

Lucina, I can't exactly think of specific buffs but what I want is her to be fixed so she isn't an inferior version of Marth. They're nearly identical to each other and have the same playstyle but her attacks are less safe on shield, can't kill as early as he can, and has slightly less range in her moves. She is better in the sense that she can get more consistent damage (which is important for some of her moves like her NeutralB, SideB, and Counter), but other that she doesn't seem to have many, if any, advantages over her great grandpa and is basically an inferior character in nearly every way, even if only by a little. It's kinda sad how this character has little to offer over her original, its like the creators intentionally made her worse than Marth or something! Basically give her anything that he wouldn't have so she's not too overshadowed by him. This might be asking for a little too much, but I would also like some changes to differentiate them more since they're pretty much the same character besides the tipper mechanic and height, and I think that's kinda lame.

And on a side note: I beg them to nerf Lucario's aura.

Ah okay, I agree with all of this. Especially the Lucario part. I feel like they need to give Lucina different properties on her attacks besides no tippers or sourspots. They even have mostly the same exact combos as each other! I feel like maybe she should have her throws have different knockback to make her combos less like Marth's. Though to be honest, having Lucina be the way she is now is kind of what Sakurai intended.....

 

[Deleted member]

I think Greninja needs his speed and range nerfed, and Diddy needs his uair nerfed. Maybe I haven't had enough experience against Rosalina, but I don't think she's op like people keep saying she is, and don't think she needs any nerfs. Also, while I haven't had much experience with Duck Hunt Dog, the range on his aerials and smashes seems a bit weird.

For buffs, Palutena and Toon Link are in serious need of buffs pretty much all around except Palutena's usmash and recovery, and TL's projectiles, zair, usmash, and utilt. Also, while I haven't played many Olimars or G&Ws, if they're as bad as I keep hearing they are then they need some kind of buffs, too.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Another buff I want is for EVERY character except for a few characters like Sheik and Mario to have MUCH greater combo potential. I say some character shouldn't because they already have great combo potential (and I think sheik needs less of it).

 

[Funkermonster]

I think Greninja needs his speed and range nerfed, and Diddy needs his uair nerfed. Maybe I haven't had enough experience against Rosalina, but I don't think she's op like people keep saying she is, and don't think she needs any nerfs. Also, while I haven't had much experience with Duck Hunt Dog, the range on his aerials and smashes seems a bit weird.

For buffs, Palutena and Toon Link are in serious need of buffs pretty much all around except Palutena's usmash and recovery, and TL's projectiles, zair, usmash, and utilt. Also, while I haven't played many Olimars or G&Ws, if they're as bad as I keep hearing they are then they need some kind of buffs, too.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You mean to tell me you want to nerf Greninja again when he already had some in the last patch? I play as him all the time, and I would say he he wasn't even OP to begin with, the last ting he needs is yet another nerf. Dunno why you think his speed needs adjustments when his approach options are already mediocre (basically limited to shorthop nairs, rar bairs, and shruikens) and they already decreased the rate of fire on his shurikens. Not to be offesnive, but I think you're just being outplayed, dude.

And I don't play this character, but what buffs does Toon Link need? Sure maybe he could use a better set of throws, but I'm not seeing what's wrong with him. I mean he already has a bunch of projectiles and zair to annoy people with and has a better recovery than his original, what more does he need?

I respect your opinions, I just greatly disagree. I guess I can agree with the other choices though (to an extent), I'll give you that.

On another note: I also think Mario's combos could be tuned a bit. Even though he got brand new combos, you can just jump out of or interrupt them since they don't have that much hitstun. The combos don't even help him as much as they should, since a lot of his moves have reduced damage from Brawl. His combos honestly feel more satisfying than actually rewarding tbh.

 

[STFX Falco]

I think Falco needs a slight buff. I just hate the immense lag on laser animation, you're better off just not using it. Don't even get me get started on his Dair. Don't get me wrong his Dair spikes pretty well, but when whiffed it's severely punishable. I love his Fair since it kills at 100-130 (based upon weight) , and his new Bair is just glorious. Uair is uhhhhh, yeeeeeah... It should have more kill potential, the hit box is kind of weird. I just think his air game should improve a tad bit alongside with laser. Honestly, based upon how he is now I think his Brawl iteration is better.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You mean to tell me you want to nerf Greninja again when he already had some in the last patch? I play as him all the time, and I would say he he wasn't even OP to begin with, the last ting he needs is yet another nerf. Dunno why you think his speed needs adjustments when his approach options are already mediocre (basically limited to shorthop nairs, rar bairs, and shruikens) and they already decreased the rate of fire on his shurikens. Not to be offesnive, but I think you're just being outplayed, dude.

He wasn't nerfed that bad. Greninja's speed, range, KO ability, gimping ability, aerials, recovery, and tons of other things about him are still crazy good. He also doesn't have any of the kind of glaring disadvantages like every other character in the game has, and his approach options aren't that bad.

And I don't play this character, but what buffs does Toon Link need? Sure maybe he could use a better set of throws, but I'm not seeing what's wrong with him. I mean he already has a bunch of projectiles and zair to annoy people with and has a better recovery than his original, what more does he need?

His moves are extremely slow all around, his attacks do pathetic damage, his dair KOs him if it's used off-stage even when it hits which makes the move useless, his recovery is bad and his upb goes the same distance as Link's now, and I could go on. These issues end up forcing TL to be campier than he was in Brawl and makes it much harder for him to be aggressive at all, making things a lot less fun for both players.

On another note: I also think Mario's combos could be tuned a bit. Even though he got brand new combos, you can just jump out of or interrupt them since they don't have that much hitstun. The combos don't even help him as much as they should, since a lot of his moves have reduced damage from Brawl. His combos honestly feel more satisfying than actually rewarding tbh.

Mario's combos are crazy if the Mario knows what he's doing. Not saying he should be nerfed, at all, but they definitely shouldn't be buffed, either.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

1) Increase shield drop lag. This will make a lot of attacks much safer pokes against shields, as well as limiting the opponent's counter-attack options via shield dropping. Thus promoting smarter use of the shield.

2a) Implement a cooldown timer on rolls. What does this mean, you ask? Simple. In Kid Icarus Uprising, another game Sakurai had worked on, players were punished if they used dodges too many times consecutively within a short time span. In Kid Icarus Uprising, using a dodge too many times in a row would eventually remove the dodge's invincibility. You could still initiate the dodge, but being attacked during this time would result in a clean hit against the player. Smash would do well with a mechanic such as this. For example, implementing a 1 second waiting time after a roll. During the first roll, the player has invincibility. But if any consecutive rolls are initiated after this first roll before the 1 second timer is up, those rolls will not have invincibility. The best part about this? There is a similar mechanic already in the game. Namely, you cannot grab someone a second time until ~1 second after you throw them, which is new to Smash 4. So this proposed rolling mechanic could easily be done.

2b) Or, a more harsh variation of the above could be implemented as well. Instead of removing consecutive roll invincibility however, it could remove consecutive rolls period. Until ~1 second has past, that is. However, the above option is still preffered, as I assume many, MANY people would ***** about this change otherwise.

3) Removal of the Rage mechanic. Ultimately, it is a mechanic that promotes randomness, and reduces risk/reward. And randomness, by nature, is anti-competitive. The removal of the Rage mechanic would provide much more constant variables in regards to combo percents and kill percents, as well as making the game easier to patch for balance changes in the future due to the easier discovery of variables that could be too overcompensating/"broken".

4) General balance changes. Such, as, but not limited to:
-Diddy Dthrow and/or Uair nerf(s)
-Bowser Jr buffs. Namely more knockback on KO moves, and an improved hitbox on Fsmash.
-Mario/Dr. Mario buffs. More reliable combos for Mario (they aren't as good as they seem), and slightly less cooldown on Dr. Tornado for Doc. (To help improve his recovery a small tad)
-ZSS reduced knockback on the final hit of Up B, as well as Down B nerf(s).
-Pikachu's landing lag on Quick Attack is increased to the same amount of landing lag he has during special fall (after Quick Attack).
-Olimar has increased weight so that he doesn't die as early anymore.
-Lucina deals 1% more damage on most of her attacks (kind of like a Shulk overhaul), as well as some improvements to knockback, thus giving people more of a reason to choose between her or Marth.
-Mega Man now has IASA on the later half of his Dtilt Slide in which he can interrupt it with a jump cancel. Not only would this be a huge buff, but it is also a throwback to the original games in which you could cancel sliding with jumping. This would grant Mega Man an additional mobility option, an easy follow up into aerial combos, and give him a tool to help combat against characters with reflectors. With such a huge buff, damage on Dtilt could be lowered to compensate (knockback will be adjusted to stay the same however).
-Kirby having slightly reduced startup/cooldown lag on the majority of his moves to make him more effective overall.
-Ganon has a new up tilt that doesn't suck. :/ It would be replaced by an uppercut that would have damage and speed similar to Dtilt and Ftilt, and it would be very useful for following it up with aerial attacks.
-Sonic nerfs...lots of them. Less knockback on Bair/Fsmash/Usmash/Bthrow, Homing Attack puts Sonic into special fall after using it, Sonic cannot use Up B if his spring is currently on the stage/in the air (he has to wait until it goes away before using it again), and the removal of his ability to turn around during a Spin Dash/Spin Charge. And these are the safe nerfs that could be given to him.
-Zelda's Din's Fire, Ness's PK Flash, and DK's Giant Punch no longer put you into special fall (seriouslywhyarethesestillin)
-Tons of balance adjustments to the Mii Fighters. Currently they do a ton of damage, and there's little to no reason to pick the larger Miis over the smaller ones.
-etc

 

[Antonykun]

Most of the people here haven't mentioned Mii Swordfighter getting buffed, that's because he's so bad you all have forgotten about him.
I really just want the little used characters to get buffed into relevance.

 

[Lichi]

Alternatively, wipe Mii from the roster. They suck and they just use slight variations of existing moves. Additionally, they are fugly as hell. :3

 

[chainmaillekid]

Instead of nerfing high tiers into the ground I hope they just buff some of the worse characters

This for sure.

I mean, If people hear about these characters getting buffs, they'll be more likely to try them, and play with them than if they're only hearing about the top tier characters.

Plus, if the method for balance is nerfing, we're sure to lose abilities over time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon really needs his grab range to be improved to that of a normal character. As is he has some very nice throw combos like Dthrow->iDA at low %s and Dthrow->Dropkick at mid %s that set up nicely for further non-guaranteed followups, but it's tough for him to actually get those grabs against good opponents because of its terrible range. Also make his Uthrow a kill throw. That move is useless right now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

-Mario/Dr. Mario buffs. More reliable combos for Mario (they aren't as good as they seem), and slightly less cooldown on Dr. Tornado for Doc. (To help improve his recovery a small tad)
-Mega Man now has IASA on the later half of his Dtilt Slide in which he can interrupt it with a jump cancel. Not only would this be a huge buff, but it is also a throwback to the original games in which you could cancel sliding with jumping. This would grant Mega Man an additional mobility option, an easy follow up into aerial combos, and give him a tool to help combat against characters with reflectors. With such a huge buff, damage on Dtilt could be lowered to compensate (knockback will be adjusted to stay the same however).
-etc

As far as Mario not having reliable combos I feel like this is incredibly mitigated by the fact that vertical vectoring is gone. Mario might not be able to pop a free combo but his followup game is 100% more real now, Doc's is as well (D-Throw into Uair can no longer be vectored out of at higher %s and Doc can get a free mixup after it usually, it's silly). Doc Nado is primarily a horizontal recovery move despite its implications of being vertical (incredibly weird but that's the ropes.) If anything all I want for Doc is damage buffs on anything he has that isn't stronger than Mario's because of his lesser mobility. At least UpAir (make it do 9-10% pls). As is he's fine though, vectoring being gone did a lot for him.

Mega Man having an IASA on his Slide would literally make me ragequit. He controls midrange and zones really well to begin with, I don't think he needs that at all. Pellets already force some kind of honest approach, I don't want Mega Man to be able to...well, yeah.

I also agree with @ HeavyLobster about Ganon's throw range. Since his d-throw is not the godlike throw it was in Melee (it bounces at a much more fair angle in this game) I think his throw COULD use a slight range buff (make it match like, IDK, someone else's)

 

[Lavani]

- Gordos disappear when hit instead of being reflected.


- Less mashing needed to recover with downB without using his double jump.


- Slight range increase, maybe a bit less landing lag on fair/nair? or an earlier autocancel window.


- Undo fair's knockback nerf.

Then my life would be perfect.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

I would really like a stronger rest. Jigglypuffs rest is good in this game, but it can get great. Just some minor buffs.
Also some diddy nerfs would be ideal.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Another buff I want is for EVERY character except for a few characters like Sheik and Mario to have MUCH greater combo potential. I say some character shouldn't because they already have great combo potential (and I think sheik needs less of it).

You haven't played against a good Mario yet. Mario cat do 50% combos from a grab and has the potential to up air attack you off the screen 3-4 times in a row.

NERF ROLLS!! Add more ending recovery frames to rolls. They are ridiculous. Playing againt a Lucario with higher dmg can virtually roll out of almost any situation. I secondary jigglypuff and there's almost no option for me to chase down Lucario to hit him out of a roll unless I do a hard read perfectly timed pound.

 

[Severn]

Bring back double Fair and make his Dair spike from the entire arc again rather than just below him.

Also his range hasn't been nerfed from Brawl.

Increase range.

Return side B to the way it was, I don't care about the character really but a nerf to his recovery really was not needed.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I can't believe people still think Marth has less range than in Brawl.

Especially since he actually has on average slightly longer disjoints...

Anyways, fix Marth/Lucina spike. Make that all melee-like with the pike hitbox.

Add some start lag and end lag to diddy up air. Only make it a few frames for start though. Also change D Throw in some way. Probably the angle.

Fix Sonic. Idk too much about how he should be changed, but def pull a Lucario Up B Nerf on his F smash. Also dash attack endlag would be nice.

Make Kirby actually fast. Give him a lot faster dash speed and slightly faster air speed. Make Down B able to be canceled earlier like PM 3.0.

Bring back SH Lasers DACUS.

I like the idea of Gordos being nullified over reflected. That would be so awesome for DDD.

I also have a few other things I'd like to see, like a lot of auto cancel stuff, but idk if I'll do that right now.

 

[Tristan_win]

The only way they could nerf Sheik again would be if they cut down on her combo game or speed, something I would truly hate. Nerfing her kill power again to the same level would just ruin her.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Sheik is a bit hard to deal with imo from a balance perspective.

How would you approach balancing her more, specifically?

Personally, i don't think lowering Fair's damage would be a bad change, but I don't play Sheik so idk.

 

[Ifrit]

Wavedashing, L-cancelling, 1.5x more hitstun, and 50% increase to gravity.
Please and thanks. =D

 

[Jabejazz]

- Gordos disappear when hit instead of being reflected.

Pretty much all I've been advocating since I've been toying with this move. That alone would give us a better neutral game, or an actual one, for that matter. Granted, a damage nerf on his regular Gordo Throw to compensate would be reasonable.

I'd also ask for our old back air, but I feel that's a bit too much.

Marth is fine.

Sonic is a tough cookie; you can't simply tone him down, you still end up with a stupidly designed character. Stuff like this needs a solid rework on his moveset. Generally granting less freedom than spindash currently does, but not to an extent where it becomes a hard-commital move.

Nerf Diddy setups out of DThrow. Uair being a great move itself, but the throw game is the real culprit here.

Being at kill %, a Diddy can basically camp you and wait for you to make a move that'll get punished by a shield grab.
At low %, a DThrow translates into heavy damage regardless of aerial used, although UAir combos into itself.

 

[ewic]

Here's what I'd like to see:

nerf U-Air & maybe something else
nerf U-Air
nerf B-Throw & PK Thunder
nerf Aura
remove priority on Side-B so you can punish him for spamming it to approach

Buff everyone else!!

 

[LancerStaff]

Probably buff 's Ftilt to either match 's higher knockback or be weaker to be able to combo at all, make both of their Sspecial's super armor more consistent during the uppercut, and I'd give sweetspotted Dsmash first hit and Bair more KO potential for the two of them. Just enough to make their flaws less noticeable and to buff some less useful moves.

And buff the heck out of , please. Although I'd settle for Lightweight being her default Dspecial if nothing else.