Hopes for the next major balance patch?

[Watchful_Eye]

If this should be a serious "competitive discussion", you should think about what would be fair and suits the game, instead of making up irrational hopes that santa claus will make your favorite character awesome by the next patch. (I am not adressing all of you, obviously)

My ideas:
- Give Mr. Game & Watch and Zelda slightly more weight
- Reduce slightly the damage output of Yoshis Aerials and Tilts (1%)
- Weaken slightly the knockback of Diddy Kongs Up-Air
- Increase slightly the range of Meta Knight
- Make Kirbys Hammer useful in mid-air again
- Make the range of Lucarios Up B and Side B independent from his aura and fix it on about the range he has with 50% damage

 

[elmike]

i prefer buffs over nerfs. Its tedious to play against sonic and diddy. But really, i believe this time the aura stuff and some adjustments to diddy should be the only nerfs. Maybe the health for luma? But thats it.

And then, only buffs to many characters that we now are at best mid tier (luigi, falco, ganon, kirby, etc...) .

And If nintendo is going to nerf more, i really hope its not increasing lags, but only % or knockbacks (and only if it doesnt remove some combos---unless they trade them for other combos)

 

[Gregory2590]

Do something about Rosalina's questionable priority.

 

[Funkermonster]

He wasn't nerfed that bad. Greninja's speed, range, KO ability, gimping ability, aerials, recovery, and tons of other things about him are still crazy good. He also doesn't have any of the kind of glaring disadvantages like every other character in the game has, and his approach options aren't that bad.


His moves are extremely slow all around, his attacks do pathetic damage, his dair KOs him if it's used off-stage even when it hits which makes the move useless, his recovery is bad and his upb goes the same distance as Link's now, and I could go on. These issues end up forcing TL to be campier than he was in Brawl and makes it much harder for him to be aggressive at all, making things a lot less fun for both players.


Mario's combos are crazy if the Mario knows what he's doing. Not saying he should be nerfed, at all, but they definitely shouldn't be buffed, either.

1. Wasn't nerfed that bad? Well I can agree his nerfs aren't drastic, you're saying he wasn't nerfed enough?
- Can no longer combo from his Usmash and it has longer recovery time
- Uair has less of a vacuum effect, deals reduced damage, and can no longer kill as early. Spiking with Uair is a little easier to pull off though
- UpB has less of a windbox effect and is not as reliable for gimping as it previously was
- Shurikens have decreased rate of fire due to longer cooldown. What gives?

His KO ability was never all that good to begin with, and they made it even worse with the patch. Sure he got a few buffs like Dsmash having increased damage/knockback and Shadow Sneak being faster, but in all honesty the nerfs are bigger than the buffs and he's still slightly weaker than before. And yes, his approach options are indeed mediocre:

• SH Nair, which is easy to sheildgrab and isn't very reliable because of it
• Charged Shuriken and run after it, which gets predictable fast
• Empty hops, but anybody can do that
• RAR Bair, which is really hard to land all the hits on smaller characters

When it comes to safely approaching grounded opponents, Greninja isn't exactly a master of that area. Approaching with him is a lot harder than it looks.

2. Okay, this is easier to understand with TL, thanks.

3. Disagree, cause' if Mario's opponent knows what he's doing, they can simply just jump out of his combos. And due to damage nerfs, he doesn't even get that big of a reward from them. Plus, he still as the same problem as Brawl Mario with a lack of reliable kill moves too.

 

[PK Tripping]

Here's what I'd like to see:
nerf B-Throw & PK Thunder

Buff everyone else!!

While I can understand nerfing B-throw a small amount, what is wrong with PK Thunder? I don't see any problems with it in general.

Only the occasional idiot in FG attempting to spam it.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't really want another "major patch". I think the game is getting pretty close to where it needs to be and really only needs small tweaks at this point.

What I would like to see tweaked

- Some kind of minor tonedown. Likely less damage on dthrow followups. Perhaps uair should no longer work as a followup, but bair and the others can continue to work.
- Aura effect lessened a bit. Less weak at low aura, less crazy at high aura
- Continued fixing of pikmin desync bugs. Probably some minor adjustments to damage or hitlag
- general hitbox improvements and better properties on Din's fire.
- I'm honestly not sure what to do with him but he needs some help
- One inch punch glitch fixed.
Various other little buffs and hitbox fixes for other weaker characters.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shuriken of light has IASA frames shortly after the toss.
Airborne assault now does 60% shield damage, not helpless if it hits.
Nair damage increased 1% to 6%
Stone scabbard hits now does 7% on first hit 5% on second, 5% third and remains 5% final.
D- throw base KB reduced, combo throw.

Scabbard only gets 2-3 hits anyways putting it at 12-17%. Given its horrendous recovery. D-throw into utilt/fair/uair should be a thing and would be huge.


Kirby -
Inhale now ignores Shields.
D-throw - KBG increased.
B-throw base KB decreased.
Utilt damage increased 1% base KB reduced.
Nair- damage increased to 12/10/8% from 10/8/6%.


Ideally the early b-throw to b-air and better reward on utilt starts to make up for poor approaches. Inhale ignoring shield let's him actually use the ability, and Nair's damage increasing will let him get clanged out less.
D-throw should eventually kill given its otherwise poop and they clearly don't want it to string.

Ganondorf.
Delete warlock punch

 

[TTTTTsd]

3. Disagree, cause' if Mario's opponent knows what he's doing, they can simply just jump out of his combos. And due to damage nerfs, he doesn't even get that big of a reward from them. Plus, he still as the same problem as Brawl Mario with a lack of reliable kill moves too.

Honestly if you stop trying to do D-Throw into Utilt x infinity I'm pretty sure Mario has a very solid followup game (less raw combos, more followup potential if you ask me) due to his good mobility, great D-Throw (espec. with vectoring gone).

The killing of Vertical vectoring is what is letting Mario and Doc do okay IMO. Mario can do legitimate UpAir strings, Doc's D-Throw into Uair is super consistent and leads to such a favorable position for the next option when you fastfall it....they're in pretty okay places right now if you ask me, buff em if you want, leave em otherwise.

Customs expand upon them greatly though (Doc has it better with customs personally)

 

[Deleted member 269706]

While I can understand nerfing B-throw a small amount, what is wrong with PK Thunder? I don't see any problems with it in general.

Only the occasional idiot in FG attempting to spam it.

I second this. B Throw does need to be nerfed a bit, but PK Thunder is fine, it's extremely easy to counter, and leaves Ness in a pretty vulnerable state.

As for my hopes...

• Needs a little more endlag/start up on certain moves
  
• Up B needs decreased knock-back. Maybe make her a little heavier though.
  
• Should be lighter or receive an aura nerf.
• Decrease in Fair range
• Nerf him to the ground!
  
• () Increased recovery range OR make it so side special doesn't leave them helpless (excluding Charizard)
  
• Reduced start-up/cool down on attacks
  
• More range
• Increase in weight

This list is entirely subjective, ignore if you disagree.

 

[Terotrous]

PK Thunder is fine, it's extremely easy to counter, and leaves Ness in a pretty vulnerable state.

If you don't know what clanking is it seems unbeatable.

What you need to do is just stick out a pretty fast aerial with a good hitbox (nair for most characters) and hit the ball, it makes it go away.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

If you don't know what clanking is it seems unbeatable.

What you need to do is just stick out a pretty fast aerial with a good hitbox (nair for most characters) and hit the ball, it makes it go away.

Really? I wasn't aware of this. I've honestly just been dodging or shielding it (which isn't that hard to do), and going it to punish Ness before he recovers. Either way, it doesn't need a nerf.

 

[Minuy600]

Please buff Dr. Mario's recovery options. He deserves it. Wii Fit Trainer should also be buffed, unless he's simply meant to be sucky.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Reduce the end lag on down smash. That pretty much it for her. I think if you buff her specials a little too much she might become op in the zoning department.

Reduce the end lag on his upsmash, revert up air, a slight increase to the push back of up b and revert fair.

Tone down up air. Make it so the follow up is slightly harder or make it that it is only a kill option instead of both a combo and kill option. Everything else is fine.

He needs a small increase in his kill potential and small increase in his recovery. Up smash increase the knock back so that it can kill at 120-130 as opposed to 150. Allow down b to grant him a little more vertical height without a jump.

Universal change
Make all rolls have the same start up and recovery timings. Enough so the opponent can escape but make it so a few frames before the roll ends that the invincibility ends.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A balance patch of some form seems likely since Mewtwo DLC comes out in March.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

This for sure.

I mean, If people hear about these characters getting buffs, they'll be more likely to try them, and play with them than if they're only hearing about the top tier characters.

Plus, if the method for balance is nerfing, we're sure to lose abilities over time.

Thing is, if they do it like this it won't make the broken characters any less broken. Sure they might have new unfavorable MUs,but it would not change the fact that Sheik can gimp you effortlessly or that ZSS moves are nearly nonpunishable from how safe her attacks are and her range. I agree that we need A LOT of buffs,but we also need a lot of nerfs to keeps from breaking the game.

You haven't played against a good Mario yet. Mario cat do 50% combos from a grab and has the potential to up air attack you off the screen 3-4 times in a row.

NERF ROLLS!! Add more ending recovery frames to rolls. They are ridiculous. Playing againt a Lucario with higher dmg can virtually roll out of almost any situation. I secondary jigglypuff and there's almost no option for me to chase down Lucario to hit him out of a roll unless I do a hard read perfectly timed pound.

It isn't that hard to escape the combo IMO. I just hold the stick back to try to DI out of it and mash jump and bam I am out after about the third up air or the first up air. Anyways most of the REALLY good Mario players don't use the combo that much to mix things up.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

You haven't played against a good Mario yet. Mario cat do 50% combos from a grab and has the potential to up air attack you off the screen 3-4 times in a row.

NERF ROLLS!! Add more ending recovery frames to rolls. They are ridiculous. Playing againt a Lucario with higher dmg can virtually roll out of almost any situation. I secondary jigglypuff and there's almost no option for me to chase down Lucario to hit him out of a roll unless I do a hard read perfectly timed pound.

It isn't that hard to escape the combo IMO. I just hold the stick back to try to DI out of it and mash jump and bam I am out after about the third up air or the first up air. Anyways most of the REALLY good Mario players don't use the combo that much to mix things up.

Edit: Sorry for double posting!

 

[soru]

Reduce recovery on downsmash or maybe give it a bit more range because it never freaking connects.
Maybe less lag on ftilt? Right now it's not very useful.
Make all utilt hits connect on smaller characters.
Maybe change her default set? Counter feels out of place to be honest.
Maybe less startup or recovery on autoreticle? It would be a really good zoning tool if it wasn't so punishable.
A bit more horizontal range on dair.. maybe? Though that might be asking for too much!

These changes would make Palutena much more solid to play.

 

[Cheezy23]

I would hope gets somewhat of a buff, but only one major buff: change the lag on her counter.
My biggest issue with her counter is that if you're offstage and you've already used her second jump and you're opponent is coming after you and you use your counter to block it, you're floating slowly down with no way back up besides warp. So I would propose either,

A. Make it do a mini-hop similar to basically every other counter, so it stops her in midair when she uses it.

or

B. Make it more instantaneous, so she doesn't have to wait so long to use her recovery.

Obviously, I don't know much so it might not help at all, but just an improvement I'd like to see to the character.

 

[RanserSSF4]

1) Increase shield drop lag. This will make a lot of attacks much safer pokes against shields, as well as limiting the opponent's counter-attack options via shield dropping. Thus promoting smarter use of the shield.

2a) Implement a cooldown timer on rolls. What does this mean, you ask? Simple. In Kid Icarus Uprising, another game Sakurai had worked on, players were punished if they used dodges too many times consecutively within a short time span. In Kid Icarus Uprising, using a dodge too many times in a row would eventually remove the dodge's invincibility. You could still initiate the dodge, but being attacked during this time would result in a clean hit against the player. Smash would do well with a mechanic such as this. For example, implementing a 1 second waiting time after a roll. During the first roll, the player has invincibility. But if any consecutive rolls are initiated after this first roll before the 1 second timer is up, those rolls will not have invincibility. The best part about this? There is a similar mechanic already in the game. Namely, you cannot grab someone a second time until ~1 second after you throw them, which is new to Smash 4. So this proposed rolling mechanic could easily be done.

2b) Or, a more harsh variation of the above could be implemented as well. Instead of removing consecutive roll invincibility however, it could remove consecutive rolls period. Until ~1 second has past, that is. However, the above option is still preffered, as I assume many, MANY people would ***** about this change otherwise.

3) Removal of the Rage mechanic. Ultimately, it is a mechanic that promotes randomness, and reduces risk/reward. And randomness, by nature, is anti-competitive. The removal of the Rage mechanic would provide much more constant variables in regards to combo percents and kill percents, as well as making the game easier to patch for balance changes in the future due to the easier discovery of variables that could be too overcompensating/"broken".

4) General balance changes. Such, as, but not limited to:
-Diddy Dthrow and/or Uair nerf(s)
-Bowser Jr buffs. Namely more knockback on KO moves, and an improved hitbox on Fsmash.
-Mario/Dr. Mario buffs. More reliable combos for Mario (they aren't as good as they seem), and slightly less cooldown on Dr. Tornado for Doc. (To help improve his recovery a small tad)
-ZSS reduced knockback on the final hit of Up B, as well as Down B nerf(s).
-Pikachu's landing lag on Quick Attack is increased to the same amount of landing lag he has during special fall (after Quick Attack).
-Olimar has increased weight so that he doesn't die as early anymore.
-Lucina deals 1% more damage on most of her attacks (kind of like a Shulk overhaul), as well as some improvements to knockback, thus giving people more of a reason to choose between her or Marth.
-Mega Man now has IASA on the later half of his Dtilt Slide in which he can interrupt it with a jump cancel. Not only would this be a huge buff, but it is also a throwback to the original games in which you could cancel sliding with jumping. This would grant Mega Man an additional mobility option, an easy follow up into aerial combos, and give him a tool to help combat against characters with reflectors. With such a huge buff, damage on Dtilt could be lowered to compensate (knockback will be adjusted to stay the same however).
-Kirby having slightly reduced startup/cooldown lag on the majority of his moves to make him more effective overall.
-Ganon has a new up tilt that doesn't suck. :/ It would be replaced by an uppercut that would have damage and speed similar to Dtilt and Ftilt, and it would be very useful for following it up with aerial attacks.
-Sonic nerfs...lots of them. Less knockback on Bair/Fsmash/Usmash/Bthrow, Homing Attack puts Sonic into special fall after using it, Sonic cannot use Up B if his spring is currently on the stage/in the air (he has to wait until it goes away before using it again), and the removal of his ability to turn around during a Spin Dash/Spin Charge. And these are the safe nerfs that could be given to him.
-Zelda's Din's Fire, Ness's PK Flash, and DK's Giant Punch no longer put you into special fall (seriouslywhyarethesestillin)
-Tons of balance adjustments to the Mii Fighters. Currently they do a ton of damage, and there's little to no reason to pick the larger Miis over the smaller ones.
-etc

I do agree about rolls. For Rage Mechanic, I semi-agree, it definitly is filled with randomness, but it can reward both players, so it's not an awful mechanic IMO, but I do get your point.

In terms of Sonic, I mostly disagree with the nerfs you suggested. The problem about Sonic in Brawl was that he had almost no kill moves and his combos were non-exist. At least they improved those aspects in Smash 4. The only nerfs I do agree is BThrow, Usmash, and UP-B. I do agree with Diddy's nerfs

 

[chainmaillekid]

Thing is, if they do it like this it won't make the broken characters any less broken. Sure they might have new unfavorable MUs,but it would not change the fact that Sheik can gimp you effortlessly or that ZSS moves are nearly nonpunishable from how safe her attacks are and her range. I agree that we need A LOT of buffs,but we also need a lot of nerfs to keeps from breaking the game.

I'm not sure sheik is all that broken TBH.
Especially not in such a way that wouldn't allow balance by focusing on buffing weaker characters.

I think part of the problem with sheik, is she has a lot of new versatility, but its hard for a lot of people not to fight her the same way they've been used to forever, and that her "effortless" gimping may not be quite so effortless even a month or two down the road.

 

[Utena]

change palutenas default moves, or speed up her tilts/make her utilt hit through battlefield platforms
make sheiks dmash hitbox come out in front first
buff Falcos lasers and spike (make them faster)

Fix the cstick. make it how it used to be.
Get rid of the rage mechanic...

Universally reduce ending/landing lag on aerials
Allow edgehogging, even if its only on characters drifting towards the ledge in helpless mode
Nerf rolls

 

[Maniak]

I think Falco needs a slight buff. I just hate the immense lag on laser animation, you're better off just not using it. Don't even get me get started on his Dair. Don't get me wrong his Dair spikes pretty well, but when whiffed it's severely punishable. I love his Fair since it kills at 100-130 (based upon weight) , and his new Bair is just glorious. Uair is uhhhhh, yeeeeeah... It should have more kill potential, the hit box is kind of weird. I just think his air game should improve a tad bit alongside with laser. Honestly, based upon how he is now I think his Brawl iteration is better.

Agree with everything you said. I would like a better hitbox on his nair and slight speed increase and I would do backflips. Falco really needs slight tweeks.

 

[LightLV]

1) Increase shield drop lag. This will make a lot of attacks much safer pokes against shields, as well as limiting the opponent's counter-attack options via shield dropping. Thus promoting smarter use of the shield.

Another idea would just be to reimplement blockstun and pushback. I can't imagine why it was removed in the first place.

2a) Implement a cooldown timer on rolls. What does this mean, you ask? Simple. In Kid Icarus Uprising, another game Sakurai had worked on, players were punished if they used dodges too many times consecutively within a short time span. In Kid Icarus Uprising, using a dodge too many times in a row would eventually remove the dodge's invincibility. You could still initiate the dodge, but being attacked during this time would result in a clean hit against the player. Smash would do well with a mechanic such as this. For example, implementing a 1 second waiting time after a roll. During the first roll, the player has invincibility. But if any consecutive rolls are initiated after this first roll before the 1 second timer is up, those rolls will not have invincibility. The best part about this? There is a similar mechanic already in the game. Namely, you cannot grab someone a second time until ~1 second after you throw them, which is new to Smash 4. So this proposed rolling mechanic could easily be done.

2b) Or, a more harsh variation of the above could be implemented as well. Instead of removing consecutive roll invincibility however, it could remove consecutive rolls period. Until ~1 second has past, that is. However, the above option is still preffered, as I assume many, MANY people would ***** about this change otherwise.

A similar idea i thought of, would simply to be a "stale moves" variation for defense mechanics that lower their effectiveness (or increase your vulnerability) the more you use them. For example, consecutive use of defensive abilities (rolls, spot dodges, air dodges, ledge grabs) would either a) remove invincibility frames from them, or b) slowly begin to increase damage taken until you balance it out with more offensive moves. Naturally, this would have to be tweaked for every character.

3) Removal of the Rage mechanic. Ultimately, it is a mechanic that promotes randomness, and reduces risk/reward. And randomness, by nature, is anti-competitive. The removal of the Rage mechanic would provide much more constant variables in regards to combo percents and kill percents, as well as making the game easier to patch for balance changes in the future due to the easier discovery of variables that could be too overcompensating/"broken".

I disagree with this, only because Stale Move Negation still exists, and it's far worse than rage could ever hope to be. On one hand, rage is a comeback mechanic for players who are losing, but on the other hand is a sustainable buff to players who are ahead a stock. Combo ability is reduced, but killing power isn't, something which really helps heavy characters on this game.

I'd only be okay with removal of rage if Stale Moves were completely removed, at least the inclusion of knockback reduction on them.



Other than that:

- Lucina needs about a 1.5% increase on nearly all her strikes if she's going to stay how she is. Maybe put just a little extra knockback on the last hits of dancing blade.

- Ike's eruption needs a higher base AoE radius.
-Ike's quickdraw should not put him in freefall.

-Ganon's up-tilt is trash. Who's going to be hit by that in this game?

- Nerf PK Thunder's speed, why on earth is it so fast in this game? You can force an airdodge and then PK Thunder 2 people under the right conditions, and it's not even uncommon.

- I really don't think Flare Blitz should have 100% super armor regardless of Charizard's damage. Remove it after a threshold at least, he still has boulder.

- Nerf the priority of Links' projectiles. Bomb will eat pretty much everything in this game but a full-charge lightning from Robin. I don't see why his projectiles are so good when he still has a kill combo from Jab, a KO dash attack and a KO up-B.

- AA > AA > AA > AA > AA


Overall :

- Nerf shield regeneration across the board.
- Rethink the frames on some character's sex kicks, or further balance out the rest of the cast's. I don't think its a real issue, but I think most characters could use at least one 11-12 lag aerial. It just...it feels so good.

 

[Maniak]

- AA > AA > AA > AA > AA

???

 

[chaosmasterro]

I just want the strict timing on pivots to be more friendly instead of it being 1-frame. Then people can actually start dash dancing instead of dash prancing.

 

[Funkermonster]

Other than that:

- Lucina needs about a 1.5% increase on nearly all her strikes if she's going to stay how she is. Maybe put just a little extra knockback on the last hits of dancing blade.

- Ike's eruption needs a higher base AoE radius.
-Ike's quickdraw should not put him in freefall.

-Ganon's up-tilt is trash. Who's going to be hit by that in this game?

- Nerf PK Thunder's speed, why on earth is it so fast in this game? You can force an airdodge and then PK Thunder 2 people under the right conditions, and it's not even uncommon.

- I really don't think Flare Blitz should have 100% super armor regardless of Charizard's damage. Remove it after a threshold at least, he still has boulder.

- Nerf the priority of Links' projectiles. Bomb will eat pretty much everything in this game but a full-charge lightning from Robin. I don't see why his projectiles are so good when he still has a kill combo from Jab, a KO dash attack and a KO up-B.

- AA > AA > AA > AA > AA


Overall :

- Nerf shield regeneration across the board.
- Rethink the frames on some character's sex kicks, or further balance out the rest of the cast's. I don't think its a real issue, but I think most characters could use at least one 11-12 lag aerial. It just...it feels so good.

Disagree with every character specific nerf/buff besides with Lucina. And I don't know what's up with the Fox text.

Flare Blitz doesn't have any super armor on startup and he still takes damage even if it whiffs. The move is already unsafe on block and easily punishable, and certain projectiles (like Pac-Man's Melons) seem to be able to stop him dead in his tracks during it. I'd rather leave Flare Blitz alone, it's already a high risk, high reward move. If you revoked the super armor, you'd take away part of the reward!

Ike's Quick Draw should definitely put him in a free fall, his recovery would be almost OP if it didn't given its good horizontal distance even without charging it. If Ike hits a character during it, he goes not get put into freefall, and I think that's enough. I don't think Eruption needs much of an increased AoE either, its already a scary move to deal with while he's edgeguarding, and I see no point in making it even scarier.

Link's Dash Attack and UpB may KO but they are still massively unsafe, since his DA has slow startup and UpB making him vulnerable. His Bombs aren't all that difficult to bypass either.

Ganondorf Utilt idea, maybe reasonable.

Ness PK Thunder, you don't have to airdodge. You can just use a quick aerial like a Nair (for most characters) on the ball to beat it outright.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a character balance thread and not a general mechanics thread because there are a lot of posts about the latter.

 

[Alses]

Honestly I don't think Lucina, Ganondorf or Palutena need any buffs. Lucina is faster than Marth without the need of so much precision which is what makes her easier to use but is punished with being less powerful which seems fair, Ganondorf is really good with everything except his U-Tilt which is expected and I honestly think he is one of the best characters with the current balance and Palutena has long lasting tilts and smashes that have enormous range, not to mention she is the only character with a reflecting and counter at the same time, add on the projectile and she has a lot of potential. If any changes were made to these characters I'd like if Lucina's specials were faster and her tilts slightly weaker, Ganondorf was given more bulk and less power since he currently is very "kill or die" and Palutena.. Well, I'd hope her tilts (except up tilt) to be changed to a fast one hitters and her smashes to have less range and endlag but that'd be a pretty big change so I expect nothing like that.
- Pits need more start or end lag for their smashes, currently they're very spammable with their strong attacks, also their side special just shouldn't reflect anymore, they have a shield with the down special, giving so much reflecting options is quite lame. I was disappointed in seeing that new Pit still has that annoying part of Brawl Pit alive. =/
- Ike needs his neutral and down special boosted, his neutral needs less start lag and more end lag, otherwise it's a useless move that only hits enemies that decide to walk into it and his down needs some sort of range boost, countering air is not helpful.
- Diddy Kong's recovery is too good atm, reduce his jumps or give more delay to his aerials, anything to make it harder to recover after spiking or punishing recovering foes since ATM it's ridiculously easy.
- Zero Suit and Sheik need one thing in common changed, their down B needs to have less lag and less power also the jellyfish for Sheik should be default since it's waaay better.
- Bowser needs some more buff, he is really easy to launch for some reason =/
- Zelda needs her Up special nerfed and her side special buffed or with less end lag allowing more mobility
- Kirby and King Dedede need some speed boosts and Dedede's gordo needs to either come out faster or not be able to bounce back to his face before his animation even ends.
- Better recovery for Little Mac+Olimar or slightly higher jump for Olimar
- Toon Link needs to be able to survive in the very least. He is so easy to launch it's not even funny, the only people that play him well are masters of dodging and running away.
- Peach's Up aerial needs to be a one hit move with maybe a tiny buff to the base launch rate.
- Pac-man's grab... Actually not sure about this one.. I might just not be good with it =P

 

[Cherubas]

Honestly I don't think Lucina, Ganondorf or Palutena need any buffs. Lucina is faster than Marth without the need of so much precision which is what makes her easier to use but is punished with being less powerful which seems fair, Ganondorf is really good with everything except his U-Tilt which is expected and I honestly think he is one of the best characters with the current balance and Palutena has long lasting tilts and smashes that have enormous range, not to mention she is the only character with a reflecting and counter at the same time, add on the projectile and she has a lot of potential. If any changes were made to these characters I'd like if Lucina's specials were faster and her tilts slightly weaker, Ganondorf was given more bulk and less power since he currently is very "kill or die" and Palutena.. Well, I'd hope her tilts (except up tilt) to be changed to a fast one hitters and her smashes to have less range and endlag but that'd be a pretty big change so I expect nothing like that.
- Pits need more start or end lag for their smashes, currently they're very spammable with their strong attacks, also their side special just shouldn't reflect anymore, they have a shield with the down special, giving so much reflecting options is quite lame. I was disappointed in seeing that new Pit still has that annoying part of Brawl Pit alive. =/
- Ike needs his neutral and down special boosted, his neutral needs less start lag and more end lag, otherwise it's a useless move that only hits enemies that decide to walk into it and his down needs some sort of range boost, countering air is not helpful.
- Diddy Kong's recovery is too good atm, reduce his jumps or give more delay to his aerials, anything to make it harder to recover after spiking or punishing recovering foes since ATM it's ridiculously easy.
- Zero Suit and Sheik need one thing in common changed, their down B needs to have less lag and less power also the jellyfish for Sheik should be default since it's waaay better.
- Bowser needs some more buff, he is really easy to launch for some reason =/
- Zelda needs her Up special nerfed and her side special buffed or with less end lag allowing more mobility
- Kirby and King Dedede need some speed boosts and Dedede's gordo needs to either come out faster or not be able to bounce back to his face before his animation even ends.
- Better recovery for Little Mac+Olimar or slightly higher jump for Olimar
- Toon Link needs to be able to survive in the very least. He is so easy to launch it's not even funny, the only people that play him well are masters of dodging and running away.
- Peach's Up aerial needs to be a one hit move with maybe a tiny buff to the base launch rate.
- Pac-man's grab... Actually not sure about this one.. I might just not be good with it =P

Lol, while reading this list of things I was surprised to find how much I disagree with all of it. XD

I can see Bowser getting buffed a little after the hit Bowsercide took, ZSS down B having less power, and Olimar being made to suck less (he's the only character in the game I absolutely hate to play, and certain other sites who have already started working on tier lists have him in dead last so I must not be alone in my opinion) but the rest of these things I feel like are already balanced when you consider each character's overall kit and stats currently.

 

[Nyhte]

???

twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/590712949
8:40 and just before then is what I'm thinking about

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a character balance thread and not a general mechanics thread because there are a lot of posts about the latter.

Last night I editted the OP to tell people they can discuss general mechanics too.

I think Link should have increased range on his grab, how the hell is it that the famous hookshot is outranged by nearly everyone else's ranged grab?

 

[Lozjam]

Another idea would just be to reimplement blockstun and pushback. I can't imagine why it was removed in the first place.



A similar idea i thought of, would simply to be a "stale moves" variation for defense mechanics that lower their effectiveness (or increase your vulnerability) the more you use them. For example, consecutive use of defensive abilities (rolls, spot dodges, air dodges, ledge grabs) would either a) remove invincibility frames from them, or b) slowly begin to increase damage taken until you balance it out with more offensive moves. Naturally, this would have to be tweaked for every character.



I disagree with this, only because Stale Move Negation still exists, and it's far worse than rage could ever hope to be. On one hand, rage is a comeback mechanic for players who are losing, but on the other hand is a sustainable buff to players who are ahead a stock. Combo ability is reduced, but killing power isn't, something which really helps heavy characters on this game.

I'd only be okay with removal of rage if Stale Moves were completely removed, at least the inclusion of knockback reduction on them.



Other than that:

- Lucina needs about a 1.5% increase on nearly all her strikes if she's going to stay how she is. Maybe put just a little extra knockback on the last hits of dancing blade.

- Ike's eruption needs a higher base AoE radius.
-Ike's quickdraw should not put him in freefall.

-Ganon's up-tilt is trash. Who's going to be hit by that in this game?

- Nerf PK Thunder's speed, why on earth is it so fast in this game? You can force an airdodge and then PK Thunder 2 people under the right conditions, and it's not even uncommon.

- I really don't think Flare Blitz should have 100% super armor regardless of Charizard's damage. Remove it after a threshold at least, he still has boulder.

- Nerf the priority of Links' projectiles. Bomb will eat pretty much everything in this game but a full-charge lightning from Robin. I don't see why his projectiles are so good when he still has a kill combo from Jab, a KO dash attack and a KO up-B.

- AA > AA > AA > AA > AA


Overall :

- Nerf shield regeneration across the board.
- Rethink the frames on some character's sex kicks, or further balance out the rest of the cast's. I don't think its a real issue, but I think most characters could use at least one 11-12 lag aerial. It just...it feels so good.

Hi, Ganondorf main here. You are really underestimating utilt. It is a fantastic move for edge guarding.
1. It has fantastic range and will punish any getup attack, and those who shield(Ganondorf's utilt breaks all shields)
2. Even when it doesn't hit, it puts your opponent in very precarious positions that you can punish, and if you space and time it correctly you will not be punished
3. It provides very amazing ledge air games, where your opponent jumps suspecting a Utilt, and you can punish with Uair, Fair, or Bair to score a kill.
If we are to buff Ganondorf, make Wizard Kick faster, give him AC Dairs, give him slight damage buffs, and extend his grab by a little bit.

Also a Link main here, Link isn't broken one bit and doesn't need to be nerfed. He's higher mid tier at best, just nerf rolling in general and he won't be bad at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucina is not faster than Marth.

lol.

She is inferior to her grandfather IN EVERY WAY

 

[Shaya]

So I'm going to close this thread, purely because a wish list thread is a no go.
However, someone approached me before this was made trying to embrace this idea, but in a very numerical / literal way. He should be getting to it sometime soon.

But in short, if we want to have this conversation, it has to be by numbers and they have to be justified.
Rebalancing mechanics would be amazing, but we're never going to agree to those (or if we do, they likely won't get changed ;\).