Then what is the "correct context" in which it is justified to an all-loving and all powerful god to kill gay people?
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Homosexuality - Is It Right?
- Thread starter Crimson King
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JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
You'd have to read the book itself. I'm guessing its because the nation of Israel was still fledgiling(sp?) at that time and in order to maintain...order, God wanted these unrepentant sinners to stop poisoning his people.
As for why God created a world he knew would sin, here's a little cntrl+v:
"Scripture tells us that everything was perfect when God finished his creating activity (Genesis 1:31). Evil came into the world when Satan and other angles rebelled against God (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6) and when Adam and Eve fell into sin (Genesis 3:1-19). God hates sin and evil (Psalm 5:4-6, Zechariah 8:17). God is not responsible for temptation. As the Bible tells us, “When tempted, no one should say, ‘God is tempting me.’ For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone” (James 1:13). Therefore it is wrong to blame God in any way for the fall into sin or to imply that the fall was really his fault."
As for why God created a world he knew would sin, here's a little cntrl+v:
"Scripture tells us that everything was perfect when God finished his creating activity (Genesis 1:31). Evil came into the world when Satan and other angles rebelled against God (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6) and when Adam and Eve fell into sin (Genesis 3:1-19). God hates sin and evil (Psalm 5:4-6, Zechariah 8:17). God is not responsible for temptation. As the Bible tells us, “When tempted, no one should say, ‘God is tempting me.’ For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone” (James 1:13). Therefore it is wrong to blame God in any way for the fall into sin or to imply that the fall was really his fault."
So it's okay to kill gay people as long as there's a lot of them in one place, then? Or if it's in a new country? I supposed it would be okay to god if I were to blow up San Fransisco?
It just doesn't make any sense! Why would god want us to kill anyone in the first place? He's all powerful, can't HE do it? Yet the bible is chock full of death in the name of god.
EDIT: You're right, RDK. But let's try to stay on homosexuality as much as possible.
It just doesn't make any sense! Why would god want us to kill anyone in the first place? He's all powerful, can't HE do it? Yet the bible is chock full of death in the name of god.
EDIT: You're right, RDK. But let's try to stay on homosexuality as much as possible.
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
This turned too much into the debate about the fallacy of an omnipotent and all-loving God into whether or not Homosexuality is immoral. We can make another thread for that.
Thing is, if you only use the bible, no one that's not a Christian will care. You have to have secular reasons to debate. Most other laws from the bible have a secular reason (adultery, murder, theft, respecting parents, etc), so why not homosexuality?
Besides that, is it immoral to work on Sunday (or Saturday or Friday, whichever day you believe to be the sabbath)?
I understand that the majority of the "put to death" are in the Old Testament that you throw away, but what about First Epistle to Timothy and Cornithians? Both have blatant sexism in it, forbidding women from talking in church or from teaching/having authority over men. That, I trust you can believe, is not moral. So why just rely on it for morality instead of actually questioning what you've been taught?
Thing is, if you only use the bible, no one that's not a Christian will care. You have to have secular reasons to debate. Most other laws from the bible have a secular reason (adultery, murder, theft, respecting parents, etc), so why not homosexuality?
Besides that, is it immoral to work on Sunday (or Saturday or Friday, whichever day you believe to be the sabbath)?
I understand that the majority of the "put to death" are in the Old Testament that you throw away, but what about First Epistle to Timothy and Cornithians? Both have blatant sexism in it, forbidding women from talking in church or from teaching/having authority over men. That, I trust you can believe, is not moral. So why just rely on it for morality instead of actually questioning what you've been taught?
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Uh, no. I don't believe in the bible because it is a heavily edited document that bases all it's facts on an imaginary character that no one has ever seen or touched. Might as well say I believe in Harry Potter, because at least he doesn't judge.
To add, I want non-religious opposition for homosexuality. Gay marriage has next to no non-religious arguments that are valid, and the same with gay rights, but I want to know why people actually are against homosexuality other than God said not to. We have been skirting this issue for the entire time.
blazedaces
Smash Lord
People don't believe in the bible because there is no reason to believe in the bible. Not because it's not fair. I think people are just trying to show you that the same logic that leads to homosexuality being wrong (the bible = true) leads to other faulty conclusions, therefore this is a faulty line of logic.
-blazed
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
I actually spent a few weeks in high school studying those specific examples. The reason the women were forbidden from talking in church can one if not all the following:
They were being disruptive by chatting amongst themselves.
Paul was reminding the churches about the headship teaching that God created woman to be under man in terms of authority, i.e. voting in the church.
Others that i cant remember (it was my junior year Acts/Epistles class)
Just because a secular society agrees with some of the teachings of the Bible doesn't mean everything else in the Bible is wrong. In fact you mention Adultery, which means sex outside of marriage. The definition of marriage is one man and one woman, as clearly stated in Genesis.
The problem is that Christians explain things like this away as being old Jewish tradition and that those laws don't apply to us anymore.
As far as homosexuality goes, the only argument against it that isn't half-baked that I can think of is the naturalistic argument, but that doesn't hold water too well.
Don't assume I've done no research of my own. I grew up in the church; I know how ridiculous it is.
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
...as you're pointing out with scripture...?
Well now, that sounds incredibly sexist and misogynistic, so I can now safely find you and your view immoral. I don't see what your last paragraph was suppose to mean, I never said anything similar. I said that most moral claims can be backed up by secular evidence, or are resolved elsewhere. No secular evidence can be said for it being a sin to believe in another god, but if you believe all other gods are devils or satan, then you can see why you'd believe that. Homosexuality does not have it. It has no secular evidence to be immoral, and the bible says nothing about why it is bad.
And I don't believe adultery in itself is bad, I believe it can be bad. I don't follow blanket statements. Murder is bad, but all deaths where one person kills another is murder, and not all of those are bad (like self defense). Blanket statements lead to intolerance and bigotry.
I don't need Scripture to point out how your religion is filled with logical fallacies.
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
When did I say the Earth is the highest form of goodness and wisdom? Morals aren't absolute; they're determined by the ruling majority of the specific time period in history we're talking about.
That's not a very good argument considering the validity of the Bible. That's like saying "Prove to me my book says it's wrong, and I will believe you!".
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
But if I follow it, what else is gonna make your side of the debate make me come to your side?
Peeze
Smash Master
The first time i've ever agreed with you about anything... ever.
Luigu, Luigi, Luigi... How do you manage to ignore all the difficult questions?
Snex asked you a very valid question: "Would you **** a little girl if god told you to?"
If god himself came down from heaven and performed all sorts of miracles to prove his divinity, and then afterward came specifically to you and said: What I really need you to do is find a 5 year old girl and **** her. And when you're done, kill her in a the most painful way you can think of."
Would you do it? Do you have any moral compass of your own, or do you just blindly follow whatever is written in old books?
Snex asked you a very valid question: "Would you **** a little girl if god told you to?"
If god himself came down from heaven and performed all sorts of miracles to prove his divinity, and then afterward came specifically to you and said: What I really need you to do is find a 5 year old girl and **** her. And when you're done, kill her in a the most painful way you can think of."
Would you do it? Do you have any moral compass of your own, or do you just blindly follow whatever is written in old books?
Peeze
Smash Master
Why would god ask him to do that? What purpose would that serve?
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
That was actually a question I purposely ignored. Peeze is right, there would be no purpose to that. Thing is, God would never ask anyone to do that, it totally goes against everything commanded in the Bible. Also, God wouldn't 'come down to earth' unless it was judgement day, as the angels told the apostles after witnessing Jesus Christ ascend into heaven.
A ctrl+v for those who are wondering about the validity of the Bible.
Ultimately only God can know the truth about God. Man can know the truth about God only as God chooses to reveal it. Thankfully, God has chosen to reveal himself in his Word. In the Bible God doesn’t tell us everything we may want to know, but he has told us what we need to know—and what he tells us absolutely true and reliable. Among the things that he says are that he alone is God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 42:10, 11), and that he is all-knowing (Hebrews 4:13) and all-powerful (Psalm 115:3). “Because the Bible says so” is always a more satisfactory answer than, “Because he just is.”
If you use it, be prepared for the next question, “But why should we believe the Bible?” The shortest and best answer to that one is, “Because Jesus does.” Above all, God reveals himself to us in his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus proved his authority to speak for God through his miracles, especially his greatest miracle: his rising from the dead. And Jesus always treated the Bible as inspired by God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 22:43) and therefore without error (John 10:35). Jesus would never lie to us. His book, the Bible, won’t either.
Just as I suspected: You're purposefully neglecting questions which might show your beliefs to be contradictory, silly, or just plain dumb.
You're not fooling anyone.
You're not fooling anyone.
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
In fact, the questions are silly and plain dumb.
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All right then, God sends an angel and tells you to murder your eldest daughter. Would you do it?
Don't tell me he wouldn't because he did it to Abraham.
Don't tell me he wouldn't because he did it to Abraham.
pockyD
Smash Legend
Well, that's useful
If God clearly told someone to **** a little girl, and they were in obedience to him (like Christians strive to be), then they should do it. Simple as that.
Peeze
Smash Master
Alt your pretty smart but what your saying is stupid. You keep asking why is homosexuality wrong, well why would god want jedikl to **** a 5 year old girl? you cant use an absolutely absurd question to try to make a point. BUt if that ever happened i personally wouldnt do it, because that goes against what he himself teaches which would mean he's lying which cant happen which means he isnt god...?
and eor tell me when he did this.
and eor tell me when he did this.
snex
Smash Master
who are you to question god? he does not answer to you.
see this is what im talking about. stop flaunting your lifestyle!altf4warrior said:
^ This is exactly the kind of contradictions I'm talking about. In another verse quoted in this thread, it says that God does not tempt (I.E. would never tell you to do anything contrary to his laws in the Bible).
But anyway, this all comes back to the authority of God (and the validity of the Bible in general). It's not a very sound argument when the only thing you have to base the Bible's validity on is God himself...and apparently that can only be found in the Bible. How convenient.
Take this for example (emphasis on EXAMPLE). What if the whole Christian religion is a vast conspiracy set up by an intelligent alien race? There's no way of knowing, since all questions that ultimately challenge the authority or reasoning of God get deflected by "Who are you to question him? It's impossible to know the mind of God."
Christianity is circular and it assumes too much.
LMAO.
Peeze
Smash Master
The bible tells me to(i john 4:1)
snex
Smash Master
and yet you can read numbers chapter 31, or the story of abraham and isaac, and you still call god good? you are a sick individual.
What, snex? lol.
Peeze:
I don't know why god would want you to do it, but you're a good christian and wouldn't try to question god would you? I mean if the big guy tells you to do something, he must have a good reason! Even if it seems wrong to you at the time. Unless you think you know better than god!
So you'd... oh... I don't know... fly a plane into a skyscraper if god told you to?
Peeze:
I don't know why god would want you to do it, but you're a good christian and wouldn't try to question god would you? I mean if the big guy tells you to do something, he must have a good reason! Even if it seems wrong to you at the time. Unless you think you know better than god!
So you'd... oh... I don't know... fly a plane into a skyscraper if god told you to?
But then you'd be a Muslim, not a Christian.
Also, Luigi + Peeze, stop evading questions.
JediKnightLuigi
Smash Apprentice
God would never contradict himself, so all your example questions are impossible to play out.
Im just strolling through this thread, and not really debating, because it's almost impossible to debate. (I'm a Christian, I have my personal moral views, im not going to waste hours of my life trying to prove other wise to people who don't believe whatI believe) And I happened to read this. RDK, a while back, Luigi asked you to prove contradictory things in the Bible, you've yet to bring one up. I know you're going to list them off from that site, but at least answer his questions before you claim he's not answering yours.
First off, as much as I disagree with JKL, these 'what if god asked you...' questions are ridiculous. But one thing that still remains unanswered: Earlier, Alt gave examples of crazy things in the Bible. You described them as 'out of context.' How exactly, were they out of context?
I just gave an example above about God ordering Abraham to kill Isaac.
And I'm not exactly sure what site you're talking about. When it comes to contradictory dogma in the Bible itself, I tend to stick to actual CONCEPTS concerning Christianity, and not verses.
Peeze
Smash Master
SNEX: waging a war against people attacking you is bad? **** america is satan then huh? Why did you even quote my post you didnt respond to it?
ALT: You dont know why? Then Luigi can just as easily say i dnt know why homosexuality is wrong is gods eyes. dont use double standards dude.
RDK: I didnt evade any question rdk i answered it already im sure none of you read itthough. all ready to hammer away at your keyboards with some witty response response.
Wow 3 guys ganging up on one this really is a homosexual thread...snex made i joke i can too!!!!
ALT: You dont know why? Then Luigi can just as easily say i dnt know why homosexuality is wrong is gods eyes. dont use double standards dude.
RDK: I didnt evade any question rdk i answered it already im sure none of you read itthough. all ready to hammer away at your keyboards with some witty response response.
Wow 3 guys ganging up on one this really is a homosexual thread...snex made i joke i can too!!!!
The point was that God asks Abraham to murder Isaac, and the Bible also clearly states that God tempts no man. The end doesn't justify the means. God still ordered Abraham to sin; whether or not the end result was actually someone being murdered is moot.
This is just one example of why Christian standards fail when put to its own test.
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