Homosexuality - Is It Right?

[Crimson King]

Well, we have a gay marriage topic and a gay rights topic and both seem to degrade into this: Is homosexuality morally correct?

This topic will now serve as an end all for gay discussion. I'd like to merge the Gay Marriage topic, but that is a totally different issue, as well as Gay Rights. This should serve as a semi-debate/intelligent discussion of homosexual lifestyles.

After a lengthy and interesting debate in the Back Room, I feel there is no non-religious reasoning to be against homosexuality. Being completely atheist, or as Dawkins would say, De facto atheist, I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. It is practiced in the bedroom and should stay like that.

Now, this is the chance for the religious majority to explain their stance on homosexuality and not look like off-topic spammers. You are encouraged to show your side, staunchly.

Let's see how this turns out.

 

[Grandeza]

I see nothing wrong with homosexuality. I'm catholic and many of my friends are as well and we pretty much all have nothing against it. I don't really see a reason to be against gays. Whenever someone in my school is questioned about why they're against gays they always give some bull**** like, it's weird or god made man and woman not man and man. I don't think that reasoning will ever hold any value in my eyes and wish people would stop being so discriminatory towards homosexuals.

 

[marthanoob]

As my friend would say, "Only those too feeble-minded to develop their own values would take another's morality as the ultimate truth.'

morality on Wikipedia - "a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong"

Personally, I don't agree with the rigidity and supposed objectivity of morality at all. Ethics, which declares its subjectivity, is more in tune with my style.

Back on topic, I see no reason to not accept homosexuality. It's a free country after all.

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

I asked confessional Lutheran pastor about the lifestyle of homosexuality, and why there are no verses in the Bible about the lifestyle, only the debaucherous actions.
Here's a cntrl+v for you:

Q: The Greek for 'homosexual offenders' says that the people doing the acts were doing offensive actions that happened to be homosexual in nature. Does this mean that mutual homosexuality is all right? In the Romans passage in chapter one, are the men and women that did indecent acts sinful for doing the acts, or sinful for being homosexual? I can't find a passage that says being homosexual is a sin, only that homosexual acts are sins, which I guess could be done heterosexuals, especially in the Roman days.
A: Romans 1:26-27 speaks of the desires of these women and men as sinful as well as the actions they take in putting these desires into effect as being sin.

Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

[Amide]

I don't know what 'right' is, but it's certainly not wrong. Wrong is when something hurts others emotionally or physically. Being gay doesn't hurt anything. Even gay parents are just as good as straight parents, so what's the big deal?

 

[AltF4]

I get that the bible says "It's bad, mmmmKay" But WHY.

Most "sins" are obvious. They hurt other people in some way. Murder, stealing, cheating, etc... But being homosexual? In what way does that harm anyone exactly. I fail to see how it is in any way negative to anyone.

Being "unnatural" is not a reason. Clearly computers are not "natural" yet you're using one right now by reading this. And neither is being homosexual unnatural to begin with. It is a common recurrence among humans throughout the ages and animals.

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

In detail, another cntrl+v:
(dont worry, its really not that long once you get into it. )

The Bible begins to teach us about sexual issues and marriage issues already in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Here it is revealed that God created mankind as "male and female," gave men and women to each other to complement each other, and established marriage and sexual activity for one man and one woman. So, as it has been said, it all goes back to God's choice and creating work of making Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or Madam and Eve. This information is revealed in Genesis 1:27, Genesis 2:18-25, and reflected in dozens of passages on the topic elsewhere in the Bible. When Jesus taught regarding marriage and sexual activity, he referred back to these passages and events that occurred at the time of Creation (see Matthew 19:1-12 and Mark 10:1-12). And when people misuse marriage and are active sexually outside of this design for marriage, the Bible consistently calls that kind of activity sin. That is, it is behavior and activity that is contrary to God's expressed will and command. It is wrong and angers God, to whom all mankind is accountable. It sounds like your Bible reading included passages that said this.

There are additional, supplemental reasons that are sometimes advanced to show why God did and said what he did. Ultimately, we commit ourselves to God's declarations aside from supplemental rationale or logical back-up, but I'll merely mention some of these reasons:

* The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is designed for normal or heterosexual husband-wife relationships. Human biology supports heterosexuality and speaks against homosexuality.
* Sexual activity between male and female enables mankind (and animals) to produce and nurture offspring, to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" -- as God instructed Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28) and Noah after the Flood (Genesis 8:15-17). It's not that procreation is the only reason God made humans as sexual beings, but it is a prominent part of the divine plan or design.
* God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit and society in general. Woman was graciously provided as a helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18) and man was provided as the head or leader woman needs (1 Corinthians 11:1-3, Ephesians 5:22-33).

 

[Amide]

@JediKnightLuigi

I get it that god wanted to make it Adam and Eve, and all that. But like Alt said, why is it bad? Saying you need a mother and father has actually been disproved by studies. And on the premise that the anatomy doesn't fit, your right, but many straight couples don't have kids.

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

"And when people misuse marriage and are active sexually outside of this design for marriage, the Bible consistently calls that kind of activity sin. That is, it is behavior and activity that is contrary to God's expressed will and command. It is wrong and angers God, to whom all mankind is accountable."

 

[AltF4]

You're still avoiding the question of WHY, luigi. All you're doing is claiming that it's wrong on the basis that the bible says so. Do you do everything in the bible without question? Without critical inquiry? WHY is it that being homosexual is "wrong".

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

I kinda dont see how this doesnt answer 'why'. Really, its the basis that *God* says so.

"...it is behavior and activity that is contrary to God's expressed will and command."

Past that, i guess its whether you believe in the Bible or not. And any good Bible-following Catholic/Christian would agree with me.

 

[Amide]

First of, despite what god says, it doesn't hurt anything in any way. Also, people don't chose to be gay, and knowing that, why would God create people with the full purpose of watching them sin? God wouldn't do that.

 

[AltF4]

The bible also says to kill the gay people! Do you do that! The bible says to kill children who hit their parents, it says to kill nonbelievers, to says to kill adulterers, and to kill witches!

How many people have you killed so far in the name of god? Clearly it's right there in the bible that he wants you to do it.

Or maybe you should think critically for yourself into what's right and wrong, and not follow blindly like a tool.

 

[pockyD]

Well given the assumption that you believe in the Christian God, you wouldn't need any more reason than "he said so"

There's no need to turn this into another religious debate

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

The best I can do for you is to say that the Bible assures us that homosexuality is sin, whether human reasoning wants to determine whether it is or not.

Homosexuals should be led to see that Jesus has forgiven them for their sins and be led to see what is right in the eyes of God as written in the Bible. I'm not saying those people should be 'converted' to heterosexuality; people *can* be born homosexual. They just shouldn't indulge in those actions anymore.

 

[Amide]

I think the Bible might be one of the best books ever written. But the content should not be treated like an encyclopedia. There are some crazy things in the Bible.

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

The bible also says to kill the gay people! Do you do that! The bible says to kill children who hit their parents, it says to kill nonbelievers, to says to kill adulterers, and to kill witches!

How many people have you killed so far in the name of god? Clearly it's right there in the bible that he wants you to do it.

Or maybe you should think critically for yourself into what's right and wrong, and not follow blindly like a tool.

If you were to read the Bible in its original language and context of the time it was written, you would know how foolish that is to say that I would do those things.

cntrl+v:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
"Notice especially the final words in which the apostle Paul clearly says some of the believers in Corinth used to be offenders against God's will but were now "washed . . . sanctified . . . justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." We are all sinners, and all rely on the grace and power of our Lord for forgiveness and new life. "


Basically, a true Christian wouldnt want to kill any sinner. They would rather show the sinner their wrongs and try to help them see the light of forgiveness as expressed in God's Word.

EDIT: I don't how many times i've said this in one form or another on the smash forums: God doesn't condemn homosexuals. God condemns *unrepentant* homosexuals.

 

[AltF4]

Okay, so essentially you're telling me, Luigi, that it's wrong because the bible says so and it's easier to not ask questions. You're just going to ignore the rest of the strikingly absurd statements in the bible and cling on to the one that you want to.

Why do you feel that you should follow the part of the bible that says homosexuality is wrong, and yet not the part where it says to kill them for doing it. How do you base your judgments on what to follow and what not to follow in the bible? Because clearly you do not follow it all.

 

[Amide]

@JediKnightLuigi

But why shouldn't gays feel unrepentant? Why should they feel sorry for something that isn't their fault?

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

Firstly, I dont see you posting any specific passages that say the things that you claim. I'm not saying i dont believe you; I'm saying i need to see them in order to explain how to follow the Bible in its entirety correctly.

Secondly, saying its easier not to ask questions implies that Christians don't ask questions. As the French would say..."...quois?!"

 

[Crimson King]

Here is why you are wrong:

* The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is designed for normal or heterosexual husband-wife relationships. Human biology supports heterosexuality and speaks against homosexuality.

Men have prostate glands, accessible only through the anus. The prostate is the male equivalent of the clitoris and a spot of extreme pleasure. All men, if stimulated here, will experience pleasure hence why physicals and be even more uncomfortable. If men were made with the sole role of sex with women, why have this gland inside?

* Sexual activity between male and female enables mankind (and animals) to produce and nurture offspring, to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" -- as God instructed Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28) and Noah after the Flood (Genesis 8:15-17). It's not that procreation is the only reason God made humans as sexual beings, but it is a prominent part of the divine plan or design.

Then, you should tell all sterile people and women too old to have children, that they are not in God's plan.

* God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit and society in general. Woman was graciously provided as a helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18) and man was provided as the head or leader woman needs (1 Corinthians 11:1-3, Ephesians 5:22-33).

Just typical biblical misogynous here. Women are not the "helper" that the bible dictates, but equal to men in every aspect. Men also are dead-beats and bail on pregnant women. With that in mind, they do not compliment each other because, if anything, men actively subjugate women.

And you are still ignoring the why. God saying so, is not enough of a reason. Plus, as we discussed in the Broom, what are non-religious reasoning for being against homosexuality?

 

[snex]

what people do with their genitals in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business, but what i despise is the "culture" of being gay.

why do they all (well not all, but a good portion of them) dress and talk and act a certain way? whats with the fake lisps? whats with the "pride parades" where they have to show us what it is theyre doing in their bedrooms? srsly gay people, give it a rest. go be gay and stop trying to involve everybody else in it.

 

[blazedaces]

JediKnightLuigi, on the same note I'd like to point out that there's quite a lot more rules laid out by god in the old testimony that we're not even touching (eating kosher, slavery, etc.). To simply repeat Alt4's point, how do you choose what you do and do not obey from the bible?

-blazed

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

@JediKnightLuigi

But why shouldn't gays feel unrepentant? Why should they feel sorry for something that isn't their fault?

Because if they recognize that the loving God that saved them from their sins considers it sinful, they would repent and would cease and desist from the homosexual actions, because they love God and his Word.

 

[snex]

Because if they recognize that the loving God that saved them from their sins considers it sinful, they would repent and would cease and desist from the homosexual actions, because they love God and his Word.

so whatever god says is automatically moral? what if god told you to **** a little girl?

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

JediKnightLuigi, on the same note I'd like to point out that there's quite a lot more rules laid out by god in the old testimony that we're not even touching (eating kosher, slavery, etc.). To simply repeat Alt4's point, how do you choose what you do and do not obey from the bible?

-blazed

(el oh el, old 'testimony')

Well, those are Jewish customs, practiced by the Israelites until Jesus came to live a perfect life and die for all of mankind's sin. The reason that modern day Jews still practice them is that they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah (nor Crimson King)

Because Jesus died for us, he took away all the former requirements that God asked for for forgiveness of sins, i.e. eating kosher, burnt offerings, etc etc. God even reveals it specifically to the apostle Paul in a dream.

 

[snex]

(el oh el, old 'testimony')

Well, those are Jewish customs, practiced by the Israelites until Jesus came to live a perfect life and die for all of mankind's sin. The reason that modern day Jews still practice them is that they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah (nor Crimson King)

Because Jesus died for us, he took away all the former requirements that God asked for for forgiveness of sins, i.e. eating kosher, burnt offerings, etc etc. God even reveals it specifically to the apostle Paul in a dream.

and one of those requirements was "no gay sex." so god took that away too. or are you going to contradict yourself?

 

[AltF4]

As for providing bible quotes for the things I'm referring to...

Killing children who hit their parents:
-Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Slavery:
Slaves, obey your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord. (Colossians 3:22 NAB)
(And all over exodus)

Wives are to be Subordinate
Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)

****
If a man is caught in the act of ****** a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

 

[blazedaces]

JediKnightLuigi, I hate to be just repeating other people's words, but as was pointed out, the only mention of homosexual sex at all (and as a sin) is in the old testament. So doesn't that mean if you ignore other rules laid out from it that you should ignore mention of homosexuality too?

-blazed

 

[Crimson King]

While on odd verses:

Child Murder
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. (2 Kings 2:23-24).

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

JediKnightLuigi, I hate to be just repeating other people's words, but as was pointed out, the only mention of homosexual sex at all (and as a sin) is in the old testament. So doesn't that mean if you ignore other rules laid out from it that you should ignore mention of homosexuality too?

-blazed

That's actually wrong, (Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

As for providing bible quotes for the things I'm referring to...

Killing children who hit their parents:
-Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Slavery:
Slaves, obey your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord. (Colossians 3:22 NAB)
(And all over exodus)

Wives are to be Subordinate
Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)

****
If a man is caught in the act of ****** a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

I have nothing to say on the OT verses, as they are taken out of context.
as for the only NT verse in there about wife subordination, it is obviously written to Christians. How it is practiced in the Church nowadays is that women cannot be given any authority over men in the church, i.e. being a pastor, being an elder, and being a voter.

Of course it doesnt mean letting women be a slave to man; I could tell you that just from conscience!

OK, seriously. Is there no one else here who is on the other side of this debate? Or is the title of this thread "Come see JKL defend his silly Jesus book"?

 

[blazedaces]

I have nothing to say on the OT verses, as they are taken out of context.
as for the only NT verse in there about wife subordination, it is obviously written to Christians. How it is practiced in the Church nowadays is that women cannot be given any authority over men in the church, i.e. being a pastor, being an elder, and being a voter.

Of course it doesnt mean letting women be a slave to man; I could tell you that just from conscience!

OK, seriously. Is there no one else here who is on the other side of this debate? Or is the title of this thread "Come see JKL defend his silly Jesus book"?

While it's true that in the debate hall those who would support notions solely on religion are rare, stop making it a bigger deal then it is. I know lots of us are here questioning you, but I think you'll find if you take a controversial stance in any debate this is bound to happen. And sooner or later, you might be standing for your principles alone. I would say you need to relax. This is only an online forum and we don't mean harm upon you.

-blazed

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

Yeah, I guess you're right, although i think i was hardly making it a big deal...
However, if i never showed up to this thread, how would it have lived if everyone else is on the same side?

 

[Crimson King]

BURN THE CHRISTIAN AT THE STAKE!!

Wait, we don't mean harm?

****, I'm not letting this fire go to waste... where's Zero Beat?

 

[pockyD]

OK, seriously. Is there no one else here who is on the other side of this debate? Or is the title of this thread "Come see JKL defend his silly Jesus book"?

The extent of the argument against is simply "the bible says so", and there's no way that will fly for a non-Christian, so I don't find it worth debating

As you can see, it just becomes an argument about whether the bible is reliable, how it should be interpreted, and whether Christianity itself is viable

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

I agree, which isn't for this thread. People's rebuttals seem to be just "well the Bible isn't fair so i dont believe it." Thing is, life itself isn't fair either.

 

[RDK]

You'd think that having an omniscient and all-loving god would mean that life should be fair.

Seriously, this has been debated to death. Everything Christians believe is doublethink.

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

It's not doublethink: all parts of the bible are for different situations. Its about applying the right part to the right situation.

 

[RDK]

It's not doublethink: all parts of the bible are for different situations. Its about applying the right part to the right situation.

Yes, Alt's quote of those passages was taken out of context, but that's beside the point. I'm talking about the concept of the Christian God.